Do you still want to stay in EU now?

mamba80

EU ? well according to the commission, our rep hasn't done her job and these shouldn't have come as any surprise.
I still want to see us in there.

does make me wonder if the timing of this is politically motivated, I m sure many in the EU would be glad to see the back of the UK, Some times we are just like a whinging child made to go to an afternoon club.

As for austerity, for most of us very true, but there is a section and large one, that it hasn't touched one iota, top private schools have long waiting lists, Super car sales still high and my nr neighbour has a private golf course and dozens of buy to let properties and he isn't the only one either, 1/2 of Cornwall and Plymouth seem to be caught up in buy to let.
If so many people have so much money, in such austere times, then surely our tax system is vey wrong

taon24

Yes

£1.7 billion from a budget of £732 billion, or to put another way, the equivalent of paying £50 extra income tax on £21000 salary.
This is political grandstanding, over approximately 0.3% of the UK budget, which is due because we have performed well. If an individual or company perform well and earn more, do they expect their tax revenue to remain the same? Will HMRC refuse to charge you a small percentage more because last year you didn't have to pay more? The EU levies a small charge on those involved to gain the benefits of being within the union (open borders and freedom of trade being most important)

People complain it's unelected - but elect MEPs, and MPs, who ultimately represent us there.

blackpoolkev

I watched some coverage of the Tour of Switzerland and was impressed at how lovely it looked. Then I thought "How can a country slap bang in the centre of Europe manage so well?" It's not part of the EU, it keeps it's nose out of foreign disputes and seems to manage perfectly well - why can't we in the U.K. follow suit?
If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested.

solosuperia

I heard some German MEP one of Angela Merkel's cohort saying "Rules are rules"............
You agreed to them and hinting we should blame Baroness Ashton for an inferior performance when they were being discussed. I'm not sure if he implied she didn't turn up or just didn't contribute.
He sounded quiet scathing!

Moonbiker

I watched some coverage of the Tour of Switzerland and was impressed at how lovely it looked. Then I thought "How can a country slap bang in the centre of Europe manage so well?" It's not part of the EU, it keeps it's nose out of foreign disputes and seems to manage perfectly well - why can't we in the U.K. follow suit?
If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested.

Staying neutral in WW2 & as a banking tax haven & tax aviodance centre for the global super rich and despostic leaders to hide there money.

UK does run a few tax havens Bermuda & Chanel islands etc

team47b

Moonbiker wrote:

I watched some coverage of the Tour of Switzerland and was impressed at how lovely it looked. Then I thought "How can a country slap bang in the centre of Europe manage so well?" It's not part of the EU, it keeps it's nose out of foreign disputes and seems to manage perfectly well - why can't we in the U.K. follow suit?
If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested.

Staying neutral in WW2 & as a banking tax haven & tax aviodance centre for the global super rich and despostic leaders to hide there money.

UK does run a few tax havens Bermuda & Chanel islands etc

Nazi gold!
(Sorry Bill)

Godwins

ugo.santalucia

The thing is... if you outperform and get a bonus... it will be taxed, so there is nothing outrageous in the EU request... maybe the timings and deadline are a bit tight and that can be argued, but ultimately these are the rules, if you don't like the rules get out of the EU...

I have the feeling we are just becoming a country of selfish moaners, who think are better than anybody else... when in fact there is overwhelming evidence that this is not the case... :roll:

DeVlaeminck

mamba80 wrote:

, I m sure many in the EU would be glad to see the back of the UK, Some times we are just like a whinging child made to go to an afternoon club.

I really doubt that seeing as we are a major net contributor, a major market for some EU countries and they'd also get shedloads more immigration from EU states.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I really doubt that seeing as we are a major net contributor, a major market for some EU countries and they'd also get shedloads more immigration from EU states.

What people struggle to understand is that if you contribute more and the money goes towards helping Greece or Hungary, in turns they will become wealthier and buy your fuxking Range Rovers and 30 quid a bottle overpriced distilled malt crap... this makes the wheel go round, so to speak.

There was a time before Tony Blair where the UK wasn't in a such a good state... London was shrinking, there was no immigration because Britain was a shxthole and the mood was depressing... you didn't even have showers or taps that can handle both cold and hot water, which were mainstream in council houses in Italy or Germany... being a EU member did help someway to lift things up and bring you from the remains of the Victorian age into the 20th century (now known as 21st), as most of the new economy relies on being part of the EU... no EU means no Easyjet and no Ryanair, for instance.

To sum it up, we are better off with a few Romanians entering the country and claiming a tiny portion of our taxes than isolated... we are also more credible as part of the EU, as Obama made quite clear.

pblakeney

I have deja vu.

Will I be able to use that phrase in an independent UK?

Swap UK for EU and Scotland for UK. We have already discussed this at great level over the past 6 months.

ugo.santalucia

PBlakeney wrote:

Swap UK for EU and Scotland for UK. We have already discussed this at great level over the past 6 months.

That is exactly the case... if you want to be ridiculous and laughed at in the world today... get yourself independent!

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is... if you outperform and get a bonus... it will be taxed, so there is nothing outrageous in the EU request... maybe the timings and deadline are a bit tight and that can be argued, but ultimately these are the rules, if you don't like the rules get out of the EU...

I have the feeling we are just becoming a country of selfish moaners, who think are better than anybody else... when in fact there is overwhelming evidence that this is not the case... :roll:

In a nutshell, I think you are correct, however, most people for whatever reasons refuse to accept they are not so good at certain things and are quite happy to blame others. Neither are we particularly meritocratic in either the public or private sector - there are worrying number of sociopaths who are in the higher echelons of both sectors whose actions are very detrimental to society.

rick_chasey

The fundamental difference between the UK and the rest of Europe, is in the UK a tax is seen as a 'penalty' whereas in continental Europe it's often considered a 'duty' (although Italy might be an exception). It's telling that so far on the thread everyone sees it as a penalty.

It's in the UK's interest that France, Germany, and the rest of Europe for that matter, is performing well economically. If France and Germany go into recession (or even worse, deflation), then they'll drag the UK with it.

It's not like the extra money is disappearing down a black hole. It's earmarked for investment, which is very much needed.

The timing is pretty terrible, and the way it was leaked is very suspect. It's not the worst idea in the world however.

It's not a competition to be the best in Europe and have the biggest slice of the pie. It's about making the pie bigger.

ugo.santalucia

Exactly...

the problem is that the pro EU parties at the moment are led by very weak figures... Milliband and Clegg are not credible, hence people turn to UKIP and SNP. Unfortunately there appears to be no figure of Blair stature in sight...

PS: you might not like Blair for a million reasons, but having been in the UK before Blair, I can tell you you should be building him a statue of pure gold in the Parliament square!

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Exactly...

the problem is that the pro EU parties at the moment are led by very weak figures... Milliband and Clegg are not credible, hence people turn to UKIP and SNP. Unfortunately there appears to be no figure of Blair stature in sight...

PS: you might not like Blair for a million reasons, but having been in the UK before Blair, I can tell you you should be building him a statue of pure gold in the Parliament square!

You and Rick make valid points and as someone who doesn't live in London but has visited frequently over the last 20 years I can see the positive changes you refer to, however after a downturn people look for scapegoats and generally forget about what gradual progress is made reflecting purely on the negative. The media don't help - try for example posting your last two posts on a relevant telegraph (a supposed quality daily) comments section and see what happens.

rick_chasey

On a separate note, I'd probably have to look for another job if the UK left the EU, as I'd imagine a lot of my clients (and indeed, fairly large chunks of the FS services) would move out of London.

Appreciate banks etc aren't particularly popular in the UK, but 10% of GDP isn't to be sniffed at, and it keeps people like me in a job.

London is in the top 3 FS centres in the world because it's got the Anglo attitude towards finance and regulation, but at the same time is part of the EU, so businesses get the best of both.

http://www.businessinsider.com/banks-br ... ope-2014-8

More broadly, people talk about arranging the same situation as like for Denmark or Switzerland - engaging in the single market without being part of the EU

That has 2 issues. Firstly, for a free market to really work you need free movement of capital and labour. You might get the former, but anti-EUists definitely don't want the 2nd.

Secondly, you end up playing by the same rules of the EU but with no say on what the rules are.

The reality is, the EU is around, and the UK is in it. You may hate the EU, but the alternative is worse. It's not like the EU is perfect, or that it doesn't need massive reform - it does. But leaving will cause so much more. People forget what the EU has done for Europe (no pan-Euro wars since 1945!! genuine cooperation between members!!), and their economic and social anxieties are being scape-goated on Johnny Foreinger.

It's interesting that places where a lot of immigration has already occurred, like London, are far more relaxed about EU migration, whereas places where there has been comparatively little, the North East, are very animated about it.

I'd suggest there's a direct correlation between anxiety over the EU and immigration and economic problems.

letap73

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's interesting that places where a lot of immigration has already occurred, like London, are far more relaxed about EU migration, whereas places where there has been comparatively little, the North East, are very animated about it.

The resentment (whether right or wrong) that immigration causes comes not just from EU migration but also from non EU migration. All parts of the country has had significant migration (EU or Non EU) including the north east obviously, there will be higher concentration of migrants in places like Bradford or Leicester for example.

If you look at the comments section on articles in newspapers like the Guardian & Telegraph and on forum posts on a site such as Housepricecrash you will notice a lot of posts which refer to migration in London in a very negative fashion.

ugo.santalucia

I look at history and struggle to find an example where a nation or indeed a civilisation was worsened by immigration... strength and prosperity has always been in numbers rather than the lack of... nations where immigration has been close to zero are hardly an example to imitate... Japan has had the flattest economy of the western world for the past 20 years... for modern standards is an extremely boring monoculture where people are seriously going bonkers.

letap73

Ugo - for the most part I believe you are correct, however, history also teaches us that people are "manipulated" into believing that migrants/different cultures are out to get them. Prejudice is far more easily sold to someone who is frustrated with their place in society rather than spelling out the arguments for the socio-economic benefits of migration.

If you extended 60 years in your arguments you could argue that both Japan and Germany have done very well after the second world war as mono - cultures. You could argue that China is a mono culture which has had staggering GDP growth in the last 20 years.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

Ugo - for the most part I believe you are correct, however, history also teaches us that people are "manipulated" into believing that migrants/different cultures are out to get them. Prejudice is far more easily sold to someone who is frustrated with their place in society rather than spelling out the arguments for the socio-economic benefits of migration.

Shame the same people are the most avid consumers of Indian and Chinese takeaways...

Germany has never been a monoculture... I stand to be corrected, but Berlin is the second largest Turkish city in the world...

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

letap73 wrote:

Ugo - for the most part I believe you are correct, however, history also teaches us that people are "manipulated" into believing that migrants/different cultures are out to get them. Prejudice is far more easily sold to someone who is frustrated with their place in society rather than spelling out the arguments for the socio-economic benefits of migration.

Shame the same people are the most avid consumers of Indian and Chinese takeaways...

Germany has never been a monoculture... I stand to be corrected, but Berlin is the second largest Turkish city in the world...

Since Germany reunited it has not been a mono culture before that as West Germany to migrate and attain full citizenship was quite difficult for say an Indian migrant. This was certainly not the case for the UK in the sixties or the seventies.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

Since Germany reunited it has not been a mono culture before that as West Germany to migrate and attain full citizenship was quite difficult for say an Indian migrant. This was certainly not the case for the UK in the sixties or the seventies.

Immigration in Germany predates 1989 by a long way... EU and non EU immigration... as I said the large Turkish community in Germany has been there for decades... Do we want to talk about the Italian community in Liege which probably outnumbers the Wallones? The second most common surname in Turin is Cheng... :shock:


We like to think immigration is a British thing, but go to Paris, go to Brussels, go to Milan, or Amsterdam or anywhere in Europe in fact, with the exception of Lisbon and you'll see how the native breed is a minority... as always living on an island makes us very provincial...

letap73

I take your point, however, in the last 20 years in Germanys case, a greater influence from the migrant population, for example if you look at the present day soccer team I can see the likes of Ozil, Boateng and Klose having a greater influence. I do not remember noticing such difference in ethnicity in West German soccer teams or their sports stars.

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I really doubt that seeing as we are a major net contributor, a major market for some EU countries and they'd also get shedloads more immigration from EU states.

What people struggle to understand is that if you contribute more and the money goes towards helping Greece or Hungary, in turns they will become wealthier and buy your fuxking Range Rovers and 30 quid a bottle overpriced distilled malt crap... this makes the wheel go round, so to speak.

There was a time before Tony Blair where the UK wasn't in a such a good state... London was shrinking, there was no immigration because Britain was a shxthole and the mood was depressing... you didn't even have showers or taps that can handle both cold and hot water, which were mainstream in council houses in Italy or Germany... being a EU member did help someway to lift things up and bring you from the remains of the Victorian age into the 20th century (now known as 21st), as most of the new economy relies on being part of the EU... no EU means no Easyjet and no Ryanair, for instance.

To sum it up, we are better off with a few Romanians entering the country and claiming a tiny portion of our taxes than isolated... we are also more credible as part of the EU, as Obama made quite clear.

Not sure why you quoted my post and then wrote something totally unrelated to it. My point was simply that it is in the interests of other EU countries that the UK stays in - I didn't mention anything about whether or not it was in our own interests.

Having said that I'm not convinced that the EU is to thank for us having showers and mixer taps.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Having said that I'm not convinced that the EU is to thank for us having showers and mixer taps.

It is... people travel more thanks to the EU, see that in Europe everybody have them and naturally they want them in their home too. The first water mixing taps were German, of course.

ugo.santalucia

As for immigration... I clearly remember watching France-Ivory Coast (WC 2010?) and not knowing which one was France... 'hough said...

Frank the tank

I THINK we are best off in the EU but don't truly KNOW.

All we ever get fed in the UK is propaganda,half truths and soundbites when talking about this subject as there has never been a proper debate. The whole EU needs to be overhauled and re-evaluated.

The worst thing about this latest news IMO is it gives more grist to the mill of those fascists in UKIP. Hopefully over the next few months when their AHEM! policies are examined (if they can be found that is) people will realize they (UKIP) are not the answer.

Thing is I'm not sure which mob are and I dare say neither do a lot of us and that's where UKIP will pick up votes.

Sorry for taking it slightly off topic but our EU membership and UKIP are intertwined.

ugo.santalucia

If the UK exits the EU the only topic of conversations left will be the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire and possibly the NHS... very depressing place to live... you'll see all those Polish builders leaving and YOU'll be left with no skills... and bad teeth as you can no longer go to Hungary to get them fixed for cheap...

Airlines will go out of business and you'll be stranded on the island...

Can you imagine Top Gear raving about the next BMW that you can't have because the import tax is too high compared to buying an inbred Jaguar?

I'd rather have Godzilla eating the Shard any day of the week

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Exactly...

the problem is that the pro EU parties at the moment are led by very weak figures... Milliband and Clegg are not credible, hence people turn to UKIP and SNP. Unfortunately there appears to be no figure of Blair stature in sight...

PS: you might not like Blair for a million reasons, but having been in the UK before Blair, I can tell you you should be building him a statue of pure gold in the Parliament square!

With what gold? His tw4t of a chancellor sold it all (on the cheap). If there was any gold left and you still insist on a gold statue for Teflon Tone I believe this to be quite appropriate.

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Having said that I'm not convinced that the EU is to thank for us having showers and mixer taps.

It is... people travel more thanks to the EU, see that in Europe everybody have them and naturally they want them in their home too. The first water mixing taps were German, of course.

They make very good taps them Germans... and cars, and clocks, and trains........