Do you still want to stay in EU now?

Stevo_666

DeVlaeminck wrote:

SecretSam wrote:

I'm for staying in. All this xenophobic crap about EU bureaucracy, etc. Ask 99% of exporters in the uk and tbey would want to stay in. This is all just political posturing by Cameron because a few of his braying fuckwits might lose their seats to the UKIP loonies. If we're not in Europe we are NOTHING and NO ONE

Well yes the economic argument is important and if it is economically advantageous to stay in I'd say stay in - but I think we should have a vote on it because democracy is rather important too.

What I don't buy is that those who want to come out are automatically xenophobic. There are reasonable arguments to be made around democracy, economics, population growth etc and even if you disagree with them branding those who don't want to be in the EU xenophobes is a pretty weak argument.

As for influence in the world. Sorry I don't buy that we lose any influence of relevance to our interests other than in the structure of the EU. Now that may be quite important but in terms of world standing - as far as it is important - we lose nothing.

Again, agree with this. As a part of what can be best described as a 'mixed race' family I find it quite offensive when people start pulling out the Xenophobe/bigot/loony right card whenever these sort of issues are debated. Secret Sam's little rant above is a good example of that.

Anyhow, bring on the referendum . Only if the Euro elite see that we mean business will they give ground. If the UK leaves, their political pipe dream will really start to unravel and they know that.

letap73

The common market arrangements of the 70s is gone, things for good or bad have moved on. For the UK to leave the EU and retain the common market arrangements would require some exceptional negotiation. If this was to be achieved we would still have to contribute billions to the EU and at the same time have little say in certain EU regulations, some of which we would still have to take on. Conditions in the EU are always in a state of flux and even if we were to achieve a good static agreement for the UK, sometime in the future we would be forced to re-negotiate our position - most likely one not to our advantage.

Steve, I understand your point with regards to the 17 billion we put in, however this is not the net spend which is significantly lower (albeit you will argue that monies re-allocated to the UK are controlled by EU governance not UK governance). The scenario that UKIP and sections of the media puts out with regards to being out of the EU is
far too simplistic.

ugo.santalucia

Mr Goo wrote:

Ugo. You may be too young to remember an organisation called the Common Market, that is what the UK originally signed up for. During this period is was very easy to travel throughout Europe (apart from those behind the Iron Curtain). I never had any problems visiting Spain, Greece, Italy or Germany. In fact on a trivial point it was quite interesting to look at the stamps collected in my passport. The UK will still be an extremely attractive prospect for European and global travelers. European countries will still want UK travelers, we are one of the most mobile populations in the region as far as overseas visiting is concerned.

I do remember those days... I lived in Italy... everyone in Italy or France or Germany or Spain thought that Britain was a shxthole and nobody wanted to go there, let alone go and LIVE there. The only good thing Britain was doing was music... we all listened avidly to the Pistols and the Smiths... because it was music of protest and very potent... they were protesting because Britain was a bog hole! Other than that Britain was a terrible place, with sub standard accommodations, B&Bs that stank with lurid carpets and dirty toilets, food that was barely edible by dogs and flat beer. That was the Britain we knew at the time. Then it changed... Why? Because:

1) It became wealthy as a result of the banking industry moving into London... like it or not.

2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say.

If it wasn't for Shengen and the EU, Britain would still be a stinky place that people joke about... that's the EU inheritance and that's why you pay your money... to be able to sit at the table and be respected instead of being humiliated and laughed at by the rest of the world.

pblakeney

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say. ..

Ryanair didn't really take off (pun intended) until the 2000's so they had little effect on Britain bouncing back from the depression that was the '70s.
I am not saying that foreign influences have not improved Britain, but please refrain from using Ryanair as one of the primary reasons.

finchy

What a ridiculously polarised thread. I'm in favour of staying in BUT with massive reforms. The European Parliament is the one that is elected by the voters, so that is where the power should lie. When the EU funds projects in the poorer countries, it should scrutinise the spending far more carefully, because wealthy people in Eastern Europe are absolute geniuses when it comes to corruption. I don't want my taxes going towards paying for a rich Hungarian to swan around Budapest in a BMW, and I don't want the money to be given to the heads of criminal gangs (and yes, I was witness to both of these. Unfortunately none of my colleagues were willing to join me in reporting this to the EU because they were scared of losing their jobs).

Although I am in favour of staying in, I don't buy this argument that the UK would just be a craphole if we left. Without a doubt the UK is a better country now than it was 30 years ago, but we're also wealthier and have better technology.

The fact that Italians were laughing at us doesn't particularly bother me, given the amount of racism I saw Italians subject other nationalities to when I was working at a summer school.

ugo.santalucia

PBlakeney wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say. ..

Ryanair didn't really take off (pun intended) until the 2000's so they had little effect on Britain bouncing back from the depression that was the '70s.
I am not saying that foreign influences have not improved Britain, but please refrain from using Ryanair as one of the primary reasons.

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

dabber

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

So you reckon the British weren't much traveling abroad before the mid 90s... think again.

ugo.santalucia

Dabber wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

So you reckon the British weren't much traveling abroad before the mid 90s... think again.

A hell of a lot less and certainly not the working classes.
In Italy in the 1980s holiday-makers was a synonym for Germans... nobody had ever seen a Brit... we knew they looked bad because we saw the Royals on TV, but that was that...

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say. ..

Ryanair didn't really take off (pun intended) until the 2000's so they had little effect on Britain bouncing back from the depression that was the '70s.
I am not saying that foreign influences have not improved Britain, but please refrain from using Ryanair as one of the primary reasons.

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

Did you actually live in Britain back then Ugo. Foreign travel was common in the 1980s, I can't remember people eating Spam and there is nowt wrong with beans on toast ! Your view of Britain in the 80s sounds more like the 50s.

letap73

Has there been a massive improvement in the quality of life?

In 1992 a student could start a three year university course, have no tuition fees and a near £4000 year grant. Said student could graduate in 1995 with no student debt very easily and have enough saved up for a house deposit.

In 2014 a student has to pay £9000 a year in fees with no student grant. Financing is far more difficult - student loans terms are now far worse and living costs have gone up significantly. The opportunity for that student to find themselves on the housing ladder is far more difficult.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say. ..

Ryanair didn't really take off (pun intended) until the 2000's so they had little effect on Britain bouncing back from the depression that was the '70s.
I am not saying that foreign influences have not improved Britain, but please refrain from using Ryanair as one of the primary reasons.

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

Did you actually live in Britain back then Ugo. Foreign travel was common in the 1980s, I can't remember people eating Spam and there is nowt wrong with beans on toast ! Your view of Britain in the 80s sounds more like the 50s.

No... I did come to Britain first in 1989 during an inter rail... it was bleak... it was terrible in fact!

As above... never seen a Brit in Italy in the 1980s

mxp27824

Benefits of the E.U.? Now how could we find that out...?
http://bit.ly/1wzBVPg

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

Has there been a massive improvement in the quality of life?

In 1992 a student could start a three year university course, have no tuition fees and a near £4000 year grant. Said student could graduate in 1995 with no student debt very easily and have enough saved up for a house deposit.

In 2014 a student has to pay £9000 a year in fees with no student grant. Financing is far more difficult - student loans terms are now far worse and living costs have gone up significantly. The opportunity for that student to find themselves on the housing ladder is far more difficult.

That is very true... in the rest of the EU University is much cheaper or free... we have no trident deterrent though...

dabber

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dabber wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

So you reckon the British weren't much traveling abroad before the mid 90s... think again.

A hell of a lot less and certainly not the working classes.
In Italy in the 1980s holiday-makers was a synonym for Germans... nobody had ever seen a Brit... we knew they looked bad because we saw the Royals on TV, but that was that...

I can only totally disagree with you. The working class as you like to call them were already traveling regularly abroad.
Now let me see, I was in Italy back in1963 and many times since then.I was also traveling there on business regularly before the mid 90s.

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say. ..

Ryanair didn't really take off (pun intended) until the 2000's so they had little effect on Britain bouncing back from the depression that was the '70s.
I am not saying that foreign influences have not improved Britain, but please refrain from using Ryanair as one of the primary reasons.

What I mean is that Schengen and the Eu deregulation of airlines allowed British working class to fly abroad... that in turn resulted in massive improvements in the quality of life in this country.
Look at the supermarket stocks in the 1990s and look at them now.... ? Do you really want to go back to spam and beans on toast?

Did you actually live in Britain back then Ugo. Foreign travel was common in the 1980s, I can't remember people eating Spam and there is nowt wrong with beans on toast ! Your view of Britain in the 80s sounds more like the 50s.

No... I did come to Britain first in 1989 during an inter rail... it was bleak... it was terrible in fact!

As above... never seen a Brit in Italy in the 1980s

I was there in 1984 on a school trip and remember seeing quite a few other Brits, you obviously didn't live in one of the more attractive areas that tourists visited. I also remember it was my first experience of toilets that were just a hole in the floor, I guess the influx of us Brits have influenced you to adopt more modern bathroom ware since?

letap73

According to this article over the last forty years (since the European referendum), both under significant Tory and labour rule, the gap between the richest and poorest within the UK has increased:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898

This I think is really food for thought.

ukiboy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Ugo. You may be too young to remember an organisation called the Common Market, that is what the UK originally signed up for. During this period is was very easy to travel throughout Europe (apart from those behind the Iron Curtain). I never had any problems visiting Spain, Greece, Italy or Germany. In fact on a trivial point it was quite interesting to look at the stamps collected in my passport. The UK will still be an extremely attractive prospect for European and global travelers. European countries will still want UK travelers, we are one of the most mobile populations in the region as far as overseas visiting is concerned.

I do remember those days... I lived in Italy... everyone in Italy or France or Germany or Spain thought that Britain was a shxthole and nobody wanted to go there, let alone go and LIVE there. The only good thing Britain was doing was music... we all listened avidly to the Pistols and the Smiths... because it was music of protest and very potent... they were protesting because Britain was a bog hole! Other than that Britain was a terrible place, with sub standard accommodations, B&Bs that stank with lurid carpets and dirty toilets, food that was barely edible by dogs and flat beer. That was the Britain we knew at the time. Then it changed... Why? Because:

1) It became wealthy as a result of the banking industry moving into London... like it or not.

2) Thanks to Ryanair that opened your eyes to the rest of Europe, where life was miles better. Ryanair boomed after Shengen and it's irrelevant that Britain didn't sign the treaty, Shengen paved the way to free movement and Britain benefited enormously... more than any other EU country except Ireland, I'd say.

If it wasn't for Shengen and the EU, Britain would still be a stinky place that people joke about... that's the EU inheritance and that's why you pay your money... to be able to sit at the table and be respected instead of being humiliated and laughed at by the rest of the world.

Wow, what an arrogant, ignorant and narrow minded post ugo. You clearly speak from a point of limited experience..
Plenty of Brits travelled abroad, you obviously didn't see them. As for Britain being a sh*t hole - did you ever visit Southern Italy back in the day? A rural impoverished backward place if ever there was one.. And France? Yes, a very civilised and progressive country - used the guillotine as recently as 1977.. It's views like yours that make a lot of Britons think 'let's get of the stinking overhyped and self serving boys club that is the EU'. Bring on the referendum so we can finally put this matter to bed and leave this cesspit...

ugo.santalucia

ukiboy wrote:

Wow, what an arrogant, ignorant and narrow minded post ugo. You clearly speak from a point of limited experience..
Plenty of Brits travelled abroad, you obviously didn't see them. As for Britain being a sh*t hole - did you ever visit Southern Italy back in the day? A rural impoverished backward place if ever there was one.. And France? Yes, a very civilised and progressive country - used the guillotine as recently as 1977.. It's views like yours that make a lot of Britons think 'let's get of the stinking overhyped and self serving boys club that is the EU'. Bring on the referendum so we can finally put this matter to bed and leave this cesspit...

I agree, it's arrogant and narrow minded, but it was my experience and that of most if not all Europeans who visited Britain before the mid 90s.

Anyway... this is going off topic... I think all this conversation is pointless as you will NEVER leave the EU. You (and I say you as I have no right to vote in this country) will do what the financial institutions "tell you" to do, which is to stay... just like Scotland did a few weeks back... and that's that!

dabber

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I agree, it's arrogant and narrow minded, but it was my experience and that of most if not all Europeans who visited Britain before the mid 90s.

Sorry, I can't let that go... you know ALL these millions of Europeans do you?

ugo.santalucia

Dabber wrote:

Sorry, I can't let that go... you know ALL these millions of Europeans do you?

I do

BelgianBeerGeek

Ugo. Genuine question: why can't you vote here? Surely you are a resident of the UK, and therefore are entitled a vote (one of the good things about EU membership, BTW )

ugo.santalucia

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Ugo. Genuine question: why can't you vote here? Surely you are a resident of the UK, and therefore are entitled a vote (one of the good things about EU membership, BTW )

I can vote for local elections... I can vote for EU elections (for two countries, bizarrely), I can't vote for UK elections and I would assume I can't vote on a referendum.

It's a funny thing... you are born in the UK, never worked a day in your life and you can vote for the UK elections... you are not UK citizen but live, work and pay taxes here and you can't vote... it's not a UK prerogative, it's the same everywhere you go, but stupid nonetheless

... and before anyone asks... citizenship does't come for free, an application is roughly 700 quid... I thought the choice between Cameron and Milliband not worth that much...

BelgianBeerGeek

ugo.santalucia wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Ugo. Genuine question: why can't you vote here? Surely you are a resident of the UK, and therefore are entitled a vote (one of the good things about EU membership, BTW )

I can vote for local elections... I can vote for EU elections (for two countries, bizarrely), I can't vote for UK elections and I would assume I can't vote on a referendum.

It's a funny thing... you are born in the UK, never worked a day in your life and you can vote for the UK elections... you are not UK citizen but live, work and pay taxes here and you can't vote... it's not a UK prerogative, it's the same everywhere you go, but stupid nonetheless

... and before anyone asks... citizenship does't come for free, an application is roughly 700 quid... I thought the choice between Cameron and Milliband not worth that much...

Thanks Ugo, I didn't know that. Keep your money in your pocket, they certainly aren't worth that much.
Supplementary Q: do you at some point become "naturalised"? I think it is bizarre that you could live here for ages by right, but not have a say in a general election, which would have a huge impact on you and others in your position.

ugo.santalucia

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Thanks Ugo, I didn't know that. Keep your money in your pocket, they certainly aren't worth that much.
Supplementary Q: do you at some point become "naturalised"? I think it is bizarre that you could live here for ages by right, but not have a say in a general election, which would have a huge impact on you and others in your position.

No, never.

If the UK was to leave the EU, I'd still have the right to live here as my wife has UK passport... however, the question is more whether we would be keen to live in a country that has turn its back to Europe... my guess is not

One thing people seem to ignore is that a UK leaving the EU would be seen resentfully by the other 26 countries. Many EU citizens already living here would want to leave, resulting in loss of talents and skills... from builders to doctors to investment bankers... and it would be harder to fill the gaps as an independent UK is a far less attractive place for those with skills. On top of that, I expect EU folks to deliberately avoid the UK and anything which is British... resentment is a powerful feeling... in the same way French buy French cars because they are French, others might stop buying British goods because they are British

dabber

Look on the bright side. If you did decide to return to Italy, Berlusconi's ban from politics is due to expire in 2015 isn't it?

mamba80

I dont agree with all ugo has said, the uk he has described is more 1970s than mid 90's, of course cheap flights have bought about a massive change in holiday habits, but basically he is correct, once big business backs the pro EU lobby, the uk will vote to stay in.

Personally, Europe in the 1980s and 90s was a much nicer place to visit, the £ v lira and franc made holidays dirt cheap and Europe was full of great cheap hotels and brilliant food, I would cycle or m/c around the Dordogne and areas further south and seeing a british plate car was a rarity lol! the euro and our holiday home invasion has screwed all that

pblakeney

A paraphrase.

ugo.santalucia didn't write this wrote:

No, never.

If Scotland was to leave the UK, I'd still have the right to live here as my wife has UK passport... however, the question is more whether we would be keen to live in a country that has turn its back to UK... my guess is not

One thing people seem to ignore is that Scotland leaving the UK would be seen resentfully by the other 3 countries. Many UK citizens already living here would want to leave, resulting in loss of talents and skills... from builders to doctors to investment bankers... and it would be harder to fill the gaps as an independent Scotland is a far less attractive place for those with skills. On top of that, I expect UK folks to deliberately avoid Scotland and anything which is Scottish... resentment is a powerful feeling... in the same way French buy French cars because they are French, others might stop buying Scottish goods because they are Scottish

Sound familiar?

PS:- If we are still playing Italy top trumps, my working class parents toured Italy in 1957.

ugo.santalucia

Dabber wrote:

Look on the bright side. If you did decide to return to Italy, Berlusconi's ban from politics is due to expire in 2015 isn't it?

Berlusconi is history, even in Italy. Italy is far from an ideal place and we get more non EU immigration (mostly illegal) than Britain... yet there seems to be a bit more understanding that at the end of the day we are all members of the same group of apes and if folks are prepared to travel and sometimes risk their lives to get to you, that's a blessing, as it means you live in a desirable place. You could be in Sierra Leone instead, where nobody wants to go.

In history I can't find a civilisation that was destroyed by immigration in time of peace... a few however were wiped away by inbreeding... see what you like better...

BelgianBeerGeek

ugo.santalucia wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Thanks Ugo, I didn't know that. Keep your money in your pocket, they certainly aren't worth that much.
Supplementary Q: do you at some point become "naturalised"? I think it is bizarre that you could live here for ages by right, but not have a say in a general election, which would have a huge impact on you and others in your position.

No, never.

If the UK was to leave the EU, I'd still have the right to live here as my wife has UK passport... however, the question is more whether we would be keen to live in a country that has turn its back to Europe... my guess is not

One thing people seem to ignore is that a UK leaving the EU would be seen resentfully by the other 26 countries. Many EU citizens already living here would want to leave, resulting in loss of talents and skills... from builders to doctors to investment bankers... and it would be harder to fill the gaps as an independent UK is a far less attractive place for those with skills. On top of that, I expect EU folks to deliberately avoid the UK and anything which is British... resentment is a powerful feeling... in the same way French buy French cars because they are French, others might stop buying British goods because they are British

This^. From a purely personal and selfish perspective, my several trips abroad to buy beer and wine will be made massively inconvenient by "difficulties" ranging from my car being too fast/slow/wrong tyres to "I'm sorry sir, I cannot accept this bank card". Anyone who dealt with French Border Police in the 80s or 90s will remember this.

For most Brits the resentment is with (sorry Ugo, no dig intended ) , the "lazy" French, Spanish and Italians. For many years in Europe we pretty much led the way with the whole programme. I think the Poles, Germans, Dutch etc find our position on Europe baffling. Show me a German who didn't think him/herself Bavarian first, German second, and european last (example, obviously)

ugo.santalucia

I work in higher education and EU collaborative grants are hugely important for the ranking of an Institution... they are very prestigious and even Oxford and Cambridge would struggle to survive in a competitive world if they can no longer collaborate with other EU institutions.
Higher Education is big business in the UK, it's one of the big industries we've got.

Interestingly, the UK is the EU country that gets the most money back from the EU in terms of research grants... so here's an area where it's god to be in Europe