Do you still want to stay in EU now?

BelgianBeerGeek

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If the UK exits the EU the only topic of conversations left will be the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire and possibly the NHS... very depressing place to live... you'll see all those Polish builders leaving and YOU'll be left with no skills... and bad teeth as you can no longer go to Hungary to get them fixed for cheap...

Airlines will go out of business and you'll be stranded on the island...

Can you imagine Top Gear raving about the next BMW that you can't have because the import tax is too high compared to buying an inbred Jaguar?

I'd rather have Godzilla eating the Shard any day of the week

What a bizarre post. Standing by to be banned :P

mr_goo

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If the UK exits the EU the only topic of conversations left will be the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire and possibly the NHS... very depressing place to live... you'll see all those Polish builders leaving and YOU'll be left with no skills... and bad teeth as you can no longer go to Hungary to get them fixed for cheap...

Airlines will go out of business and you'll be stranded on the island...

Can you imagine Top Gear raving about the next BMW that you can't have because the import tax is too high compared to buying an inbred Jaguar?

I'd rather have Godzilla eating the Shard any day of the week

What a bizarre post. Standing by to be banned :P

I missed that one. Our friend certainly has been bigging up the EU membership case. In response, I would rather be talking about the battle of Britain and Spitfires any day, rather than how the Greeks, Portuguese et all are poncing off one of only 3-4 net contributors to the EU. And the NHS might not be in such a 5hiite state if we did leave the EU for two reasons. 1. We wouldn't have tens of thousands of EU migrants registering and using this finite resource every single year. 2. We wouldn't have tens of thousands of non EU immigrants and illegals doing the same, as the UK would have better controls of their border. I do speak from some authority on the NHS issue, as my wife works in it, and it is quite recognised that this is a major factor in its current melt down. Although it never seems to get publicised.
Waiting for a ban as well.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not like the EU is perfect, or that it doesn't need massive reform - it does.

I'll certainly agree with that. The trouble is, the prospect of returning the EU to what is most likely to be best for the UK - ie a free trade area without all of the red tape, interference and beaurocracy that comes with current EU memebership is IMO nigh on impossible. The EU elite will never sanction that given their aims. Although the original reasons - the avoidance of future wars - seems to be pretty redundant within Europe now.

They are also acutely aware of the UK's departure could well be the beginning of the end as other countries realise they really do not want to be subsumed into some Euro Superstate. So they will not give in to our (rather reasonable) demands. Which means in the end I think the UK will end up leaving as it's not what we signed up for or voted for and have never been given a proper chance to have our say on.

Other parts of the world get by perfectly well without this level of integration. We can too.

As for the claims that large parts of UK industry will collapse or leave if we depart from the club, seems to me that is simplistic scaremongering by an EU that knows which way the wind is blowing in the UK.
- Ugo, please explain why airlines will collapse. BA seems to be able to deal with flying to plenty of non-EU destinations quite well.
- Rick, I recall you firmly denying that there would be any significant exodus from the City die to high levels of tax, but you appear to arguing that move which decreases regulation/red tape etc and allows the financial sector more latitude on matters like paying to attract the best etc will cause business to move to countries where those restrictions will still exist. It doesn't make sense to me.
- On the subject of customs duty, Ugo has a point that prices of imports of goods from the EU may well go up. It all depends on what tariffs are agreed but given we represent such a large market for our EU trading partners, there would no doubt be some sensible negotiation on this point given the size of trade in both directions. Just because Governments are falling out does not mean companies will stop trading with each other. Fyi I work for a group which manufactures more than 90% of its product outside the EU. We're not going of business.

As for immigration - from what I have seen personally and professionally it is overall a good thing. However for me it is a numbers game - there are limits to how many people can fit into an already heavily populated small island and still enjoy a good quality of life. As we seem to be a magnet for immigration above most other countries, we are under more pressure than most. The population of the UK has risen materially in recent times and we have to take control of this - by matching the level of inward and outward migration. I also see no issue with having some sort of points based system so that we can favour those most likely to make a positive contribution to the UK. Countries like Australia, Canada and NZ all use this type of selection system and I see nobody pulling the race card on them.

I hope Cameron can pull a renegotiation of out terms, but realistically the EU will only budge on this when they are staring down the barrel of the gun of UK departure. In any event, I hope we get a referendum on the matter, then the debate can be had properly and we can have our say on this - finally. We have to be prepared to call their bluff otherwise we will get nowhere.

ugo.santalucia

Not sure why people expect to be banned for disagreeing with me... as a matter of fact I have hardly ever banned those who blatantly insulted me in the past...

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway... there is nothing, absolutely nothing to gain

As for the NHS... it appears that as an average immigrants pat more taxes and use the NHS less, being typically younger... someone reads the Daily mail here?

rick_chasey

letap73 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's interesting that places where a lot of immigration has already occurred, like London, are far more relaxed about EU migration, whereas places where there has been comparatively little, the North East, are very animated about it.

The resentment (whether right or wrong) that immigration causes comes not just from EU migration but also from non EU migration. All parts of the country has had significant migration (EU or Non EU) including the north east obviously, there will be higher concentration of migrants in places like Bradford or Leicester for example.

If you look at the comments section on articles in newspapers like the Guardian & Telegraph and on forum posts on a site such as Housepricecrash you will notice a lot of posts which refer to migration in London in a very negative fashion.

Opinion polls suggest otherwise...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... z3HBnHNcrr

I'd suggest those who are unhappy with it shout louder than those who are OK with it.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not like the EU is perfect, or that it doesn't need massive reform - it does.

I'll certainly agree with that. The trouble is, the prospect of returning the EU to what is most likely to be best for the UK - ie a free trade area without all of the red tape, interference and beaurocracy that comes with current EU memebership is IMO nigh on impossible. The EU elite will never sanction that given their aims. Although the original reasons - the avoidance of future wars - seems to be pretty redundant within Europe now.

They are also acutely aware of the UK's departure could well be the beginning of the end as other countries realise they really do not want to be subsumed into some Euro Superstate. So they will not give in to our (rather reasonable) demands. Which means in the end I think the UK will end up leaving as it's not what we signed up for or voted for and have never been given a proper chance to have our say on.

Other parts of the world get by perfectly well without this level of integration. We can too.

As for the claims that large parts of UK industry will collapse or leave if we depart from the club, seems to me that is simplistic scaremongering by an EU that knows which way the wind is blowing in the UK.
- Ugo, please explain why airlines will collapse. BA seems to be able to deal with flying to plenty of non-EU destinations quite well.
- Rick, I recall you firmly denying that there would be any significant exodus from the City die to high levels of tax, but you appear to arguing that move which decreases regulation/red tape etc and allows the financial sector more latitude on matters like paying to attract the best etc will cause business to move to countries where those restrictions will still exist. It doesn't make sense to me.
.

It's more access to the EU markets that FS firms want. What I was saying about the tax was exactly that - they don't want to be in Switzerland because it's not part of the EU - they want that EU access. However you cut it it's much harder to get the same access, even with free-trade agreements, if you're not in the EU.

For context, quite a few of the banks I speak with, their EU oriented business sits in London, MENA is Geneva/Switzerland for that reason.

I can't comment on industries I don't work in, but I know that the UK trade with the EU is more than double than the trade Ex- EU, and that's stayed fairly constant over the last couple of decades. (page 3 http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 4-8285.pdf) All those rules and regulations are there to make it easier to have that trade - most of the rules are about homogeneity (the eggs you buy from Austria will be the same quality eggs you get from the UK - making it easier to source the cheapest eggs, etc). There's method in the madness, and as much as the UK finds the back room deals difficult to swallow (after all, the UK has no experience of a PR system), the guys who work there aren't all stupid.

All this talk of red-tape is a bit overrated. Some study I read ( think in the economist) was saying how much worse US red tape was than the EU, and by comparison to the rest of the world, it's not all that bad. Out of interest, where in the world is there less red tape than the EU?

Also, only 2 nations have a trade deficit with the UK (Ned and Ger), with UK running trade deficit with the other 26 countries ( i.e. UK buys more from them than they buy from the UK), so I wonder how strong the UK's negotiation position would be to arrange the trade access deals they have as part of the EU. Given that info, I'd suggest it'd be quite weak.

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway...

Why? You haven't explained.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

there is nothing, absolutely nothing to gain

Your evidence for this is what? I could argue less regulation, red tape and cost - like the extra £1.7bn, less waste and corruption, more flexibility but most importantly - we get to vote for who runs us.

In any event the EU concept is fundamentally flawed:
- Once size does not fit all. The Euro 'project' has demonstrated that very well: the financial problems it has caused in recent years (such as the near collapse of Greece, and major issues in Ireland, Portugal, Spain etc) will not go away.
- The EU is too diverse an area in many ways for proper integration to work. This is not like the US where there is much more of a common culture, language etc.
- Too many people don't want it and we are still a democracy - unless we let this project go ahead

As mentioned above, we are the only region in the World going for this level of integration. There has to be a good reason why the rest of the world is happy with free trade areas, customs unions and common markets.

ugo.santalucia

Stevo 666 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway...

Why? You haven't explained.

Because they fly to Europe? Nobody will come to London if it's outside the EU and fewer people will go abroad if it turns out to be a hassle with visas... the damage to the industry would be huge!

The banking sector will shrink... which is an issue bigger than any benefit row

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's more access to the EU markets that FS firms want. What I was saying about the tax was exactly that - they don't want to be in Switzerland because it's not part of the EU - they want that EU access. However you cut it it's much harder to get the same access, even with free-trade agreements, if you're not in the EU.

For context, quite a few of the banks I speak with, their EU oriented business sits in London, MENA is Geneva/Switzerland for that reason.

I can't comment on industries I don't work in, but I know that the UK trade with the EU is more than double than the trade Ex- EU, and that's stayed fairly constant over the last couple of decades. (page 3 http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 4-8285.pdf) All those rules and regulations are there to make it easier to have that trade - most of the rules are about homogeneity (the eggs you buy from Austria will be the same quality eggs you get from the UK - making it easier to source the cheapest eggs, etc). There's method in the madness, and as much as the UK finds the back room deals difficult to swallow (after all, the UK has no experience of a PR system), the guys who work there aren't all stupid.

All this talk of red-tape is a bit overrated. Some study I read ( think in the economist) was saying how much worse US red tape was than the EU, and by comparison to the rest of the world, it's not all that bad. Out of interest, where in the world is there less red tape than the EU?

I am not sure how there is an issue with 'access' where we are talking about flows of money and intangibles. We are not in the Eurozone and that has not stopped London being the biggest FX market in the world - including the Euro market. London is so well established as the main financial centre on Europe and arguable the world that not being in the EU will likely be beneficial without the burden of EU regs. One example is the recent move to cap on bonuses that will make it difficult for banks to attract the top 'rain makers' without raising base pay and making their salary structure inflexible.

I cannot put stats on volumes of red tape - neither can you I suspect. But the volume of regulations coming out of the EU are substantial based at least what I see in my line of work - and it costs time and money to comply. How much is really essential? IMO the UK is perfectly capable of setting its own rules rather than having them imposed on us. As I mentioned above, it is also about self determination. However I'm not sure why it is necessary to make sure we have the same standard of eggs from Austria as anywhere else - a free market is about having a choice and if we don't like Austrian eggs we won't buy them.

The trade volumes I saw recently show that rest of world trade is at least as important for the UK as the EU. Clearly both are important but as you mention above, trade is the key. Not ever more integration or uniformity. Vive la différence, as they say.

One question - do you support the idea of giving the British people a vote on the matter of EU membership?

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway...

Why? You haven't explained.

Because they fly to Europe? Nobody will come to London if it's outside the EU and fewer people will go abroad if it turns out to be a hassle with visas... the damage to the industry would be huge!

The banking sector will shrink... which is an issue bigger than any benefit row

See my point above on banking and doing fine outside - there are enough positives to counter any negatives.

Of course people will still fly to London if we are not part of the EU! Business goes on, we are still a major global tourist destination. And who is to say we cannot have an arrangement like Switzerland - I didn't need a visa when I went there earlier this year

I suspect that the same people who are saying we're doomed if we leave the EU are the same ones who were saying we were doomed if we didn't enter the single currency 10 years or so ago. They got that one badly wrong didn't they.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's more access to the EU markets that FS firms want. What I was saying about the tax was exactly that - they don't want to be in Switzerland because it's not part of the EU - they want that EU access. However you cut it it's much harder to get the same access, even with free-trade agreements, if you're not in the EU.

For context, quite a few of the banks I speak with, their EU oriented business sits in London, MENA is Geneva/Switzerland for that reason.

I can't comment on industries I don't work in, but I know that the UK trade with the EU is more than double than the trade Ex- EU, and that's stayed fairly constant over the last couple of decades. (page 3 http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 4-8285.pdf) All those rules and regulations are there to make it easier to have that trade - most of the rules are about homogeneity (the eggs you buy from Austria will be the same quality eggs you get from the UK - making it easier to source the cheapest eggs, etc). There's method in the madness, and as much as the UK finds the back room deals difficult to swallow (after all, the UK has no experience of a PR system), the guys who work there aren't all stupid.

All this talk of red-tape is a bit overrated. Some study I read ( think in the economist) was saying how much worse US red tape was than the EU, and by comparison to the rest of the world, it's not all that bad. Out of interest, where in the world is there less red tape than the EU?

I am not sure how there is an issue with 'access' where we are talking about flows of money and intangibles. We are not in the Eurozone and that has not stopped London being the biggest FX market in the world - including the Euro market. London is so well established as the main financial centre on Europe and arguable the world that not being in the EU will likely be beneficial without the burden of EU regs. One example is the recent move to cap on bonuses that will make it difficult for banks to attract the top 'rain makers' without raising base pay and making their salary structure inflexible.

I cannot put stats on volumes of red tape - neither can you I suspect. But the volume of regulations coming out of the EU are substantial based at least what I see in my line of work - and it costs time and money to comply. How much is really essential? IMO the UK is perfectly capable of setting its own rules rather than having them imposed on us. As I mentioned above, it is also about self determination. However I'm not sure why it is necessary to make sure we have the same standard of eggs from Austria as anywhere else - a free market is about having a choice and if we don't like Austrian eggs we won't buy them.

The trade volumes I saw recently show that rest of world trade is at least as important for the UK as the EU. Clearly both are important but as you mention above, trade is the key. Not ever more integration or uniformity. Vive la différence, as they say.

One question - do you support the idea of giving the British people a vote on the matter of EU membership?

So, re FS - the Swiss haven't been able to make bilateral agreements re services - only with goods, so that's why they're at an FS disadvantage with the EU. There's no EU accord with Switzerland on that, so why would the UK get one? They'd be out the inner circle so why give them that luxury when an EU member would profit?

Re the bonuses - I know a bit more about this, and a) the rules are broadly unenforceable and b) without prop trading allowed in banks anymore (with good reason too) there aren't that many opportunities to get more than double your bonus anyway.

Do I support the EU referendum? Not really, but that's only because I think they'll vote out and, as i've made clear, I think that'd be genuinely bad for the UK.

I guess I don't trust the UK public (or indeed any other public) when it comes to issues of economics. Germany's excessive emphasis on austerity is choking off their economy (they'd be better off going against popular opinion and spending. They have real negative interest rates atm FFS), and the French could do with being a lot less intransigent when it comes to much needed economic reform and liberalisation. In all those instances having a referendum on that economic issue would be bad.

Sometimes people who actually understand what needs to be done just need to do it and the public need to trust them to do it right. I trust my doctor to diagnose and treat me, the same should be said of economics (even if they do get it wrong).

rick_chasey

For those who suggest a Swiss or Norwegian model for being outside of the EU, take a look a this:

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 2-6427.pdf

rick_chasey

and the Centre for Economic Reform (before I get accused of being biased...) is a think tank with the aim to

'Works to improve the quality of the debate on the European Union. It is a forum for people with ideas from Britain and across the continent'

So definitely worth a look if you are considering whether the UK should stay in the EU or not.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, re FS - the Swiss haven't been able to make bilateral agreements re services - only with goods, so that's why they're at an FS disadvantage with the EU. There's no EU accord with Switzerland on that, so why would the UK get one? They'd be out the inner circle so why give them that luxury when an EU member would profit?

Re the bonuses - I know a bit more about this, and a) the rules are broadly unenforceable and b) without prop trading allowed in banks anymore (with good reason too) there aren't that many opportunities to get more than double your bonus anyway.

Do I support the EU referendum? Not really, but that's only because I think they'll vote out and, as i've made clear, I think that'd be genuinely bad for the UK.

I guess I don't trust the UK public (or indeed any other public) when it comes to issues of economics. Germany's excessive emphasis on austerity is choking off their economy (they'd be better off going against popular opinion and spending. They have real negative interest rates atm FFS), and the French could do with being a lot less intransigent when it comes to much needed economic reform and liberalisation. In all those instances having a referendum on that economic issue would be bad.

Sometimes people who actually understand what needs to be done just need to do it and the public need to trust them to do it right. I trust my doctor to diagnose and treat me, the same should be said of economics (even if they do get it wrong).

True, the Swiss have no bilateral services agreemeents - but their FS sector is still proportionately larger than the UK's as a percentage of their economy.

Plus, the skills workforce here in London are not that easy to shift. London as I said is so large it has its own 'gravitational attraction' for FS. If London and Switzerland are outside the EU there is simply not the capacity in the EU to take over. And as mentioned, certain advantages from being outside that will encourage investment to counteract the down sides.

As for trusting people to get on with things. That's the problem, I don't trust them. I hope we can wind things back to more of a free trade/customs/common market arrangement, but if it's a choice between getting out and becoming gradually absorbed into some EU superstate, I'd rather get out. And without the threat of leaving, we have no hope of reform. You yourself said that major reform was needed: this is our best shot at getting it.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

True, the Swiss have no bilateral services agreemeents - but their FS sector is still proportionately larger than the UK's as a percentage of their economy.

Because of or in spite of? .

The rest is just a matter of gut feeling, so not worth debating either way .

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

True, the Swiss have no bilateral services agreemeents - but their FS sector is still proportionately larger than the UK's as a percentage of their economy.

Because of or in spite of? .

The rest is just a matter of gut feeling, so not worth debating either way .

The upsides of not being hidebound by EU regs probably provide adequate compensation

Out of interest, do you have any info on how the £17 billion a year we pay to the EU (more this year if the EU has its way) actually benefits the UK? Seems to me we could fund a lot more schools/hospitals/police and repay some of Gordons debt mountain with that money

ugo.santalucia

Stevo 666 wrote:

Out of interest, do you have any info on how the £17 billion a year we pay to the EU (more this year if the EU has its way) actually benefits the UK? Seems to me we could fund a lot more schools/hospitals/police and repay some of Gordons debt mountain with that money

I have a EU research grant... research grants are largely assigned in a "non meritocratic" fashion... in fact I did not deserve this one and I missed out on others I did deserve a lot more... in Europe is all about lobbying, in the UK is all about who you know... for what I can see neither system is better

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Out of interest, do you have any info on how the £17 billion a year we pay to the EU (more this year if the EU has its way) actually benefits the UK? Seems to me we could fund a lot more schools/hospitals/police and repay some of Gordons debt mountain with that money

I have a EU research grant... research grants are largely assigned in a "non meritocratic" fashion... in fact I did not deserve this one and I missed out on others I did deserve a lot more... in Europe is all about lobbying, in the UK is all about who you know... for what I can see neither system is better

That's one of my issues - why hand over all this money to the EU and have them decide what and how to give some of it back? Apart from the fact we consistently get less back than we give (every year bar one since UK membership started), we have no control of where this money goes. Better to keep it and dish it out as we see fit, it is our money.

The lack of democratic accountability in the EU is also very important here. We are becoming controlled by an unelected and unaccountable central beaurocracy - that cannot be good. I did not make enough of this in my initial reply but I find Rick's view quite surprising (and TBH an insult to our intelligence) that we should just accept that other people know what is better for us than we do and let them get on with it. The EU likewise want to dispense with the democracy side because it will stop them doing what they want. No wonder people are up in arms against the EU. Democracy is essential, especially for a decision so fundamental and long term.

The pro-EU argument will get it's due airing when a referendum is held and we can decide for ourselves.

secretsam

I'm for staying in. All this xenophobic crap about EU bureaucracy, etc. Ask 99% of exporters in the uk and tbey would want to stay in. This is all just political posturing by Cameron because a few of his braying fuckwits might lose their seats to the UKIP loonies. If we're not in Europe we are NOTHING and NO ONE

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway...

Why? You haven't explained.

Because they fly to Europe? Nobody will come to London if it's outside the EU and fewer people will go abroad if it turns out to be a hassle with visas... the damage to the industry would be huge!

The banking sector will shrink... which is an issue bigger than any benefit row

Ugo. You may be too young to remember an organisation called the Common Market, that is what the UK originally signed up for. During this period is was very easy to travel throughout Europe (apart from those behind the Iron Curtain). I never had any problems visiting Spain, Greece, Italy or Germany. In fact on a trivial point it was quite interesting to look at the stamps collected in my passport. The UK will still be an extremely attractive prospect for European and global travelers. European countries will still want UK travelers, we are one of the most mobile populations in the region as far as overseas visiting is concerned.

As for import duties on goods. I believe that a UK removed from the EU may well benefit from lower import duties on goods from outside of the EU. It is a well known fact that Brussels imposes hefty duties on electronic goods and even food stuffs such as New World wines (in order to protect the old world).

As for the FS industry. The UK has, is and always will be one of the top global centres for commerce. I do not see this changing with a UK exit of the EU.

Ugo. If you are so pro EU membership for the UK please show me half a dozen tangible benefits to our membership and £bns in annual donations. I cannot see any. To me its all a one way street, with money draining from us to prop up countries that should cut their cloth accordingly.

ugo.santalucia

Stevo 666 wrote:

The lack of democratic accountability in the EU is also very important here. We are becoming controlled by an unelected and unaccountable central beaurocracy - that cannot be good.

Bollox...

I am one of the few with the privilege to vote for the EU elections twice... :shock: the reason why you feel they are unelected is only because you lot don't bother to vote for the EU elections...

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Out of interest, do you have any info on how the £17 billion a year we pay to the EU (more this year if the EU has its way) actually benefits the UK? Seems to me we could fund a lot more schools/hospitals/police and repay some of Gordons debt mountain with that money

I have a EU research grant... research grants are largely assigned in a "non meritocratic" fashion... in fact I did not deserve this one and I missed out on others I did deserve a lot more... in Europe is all about lobbying, in the UK is all about who you know... for what I can see neither system is better

I now see why you are so interested in staying within the EU. Can't fault you for that, but you are quite obviously arguing from an extremely biased stand point.

secretsam

And on immigration, I would rather have a million Ugo's than one Farage.

pblakeney

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

The lack of democratic accountability in the EU is also very important here. We are becoming controlled by an unelected and unaccountable central beaurocracy - that cannot be good.

Bollox...

I am one of the few with the privilege to vote for the EU elections twice... :shock: the reason why you feel they are unelected is only because you lot don't bother to vote for the EU elections...

I would argue that the MEP that you voted for has very little input to the actual workings of the EU.
Just as my local MP has little say on how Westminster works.
The bureaucrats do all the work and MPs are simply figureheads.
Refer to Yes Prime Minister which scared Maggie with it's accuracy.

Have the EU accounts ever been signed off by the auditors that check them?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-row.html
I apologise for linking to the Mail but it was the first one to come up in a search. There are other sources.

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

The lack of democratic accountability in the EU is also very important here. We are becoming controlled by an unelected and unaccountable central beaurocracy - that cannot be good.

Bollox...

I am one of the few with the privilege to vote for the EU elections twice... :shock: the reason why you feel they are unelected is only because you lot don't bother to vote for the EU elections...

Not bollox actually :roll:

I am talking about giving this country a choice about whether it wants to be in the EU or not. We have not been given any sort of say in that since the initial vote to enter the common market (40 years ago?). We want a vote, we need a vote and we're going to get a vote.

I can see why 'you lot' don't want this to go to referendum - just like the EU elite, you know the EU has been rumbled by the British public and will gladly stifle the democratic process because doing so gives 'you lot' what you want. Sorry, you can't stop it now. Tough.

Stevo_666

PBlakeney wrote:

Have the EU accounts ever been signed off by the auditors that check them?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-row.html
I apologise for linking to the Mail but it was the first one to come up in a search. There are other sources.

Not that I know of. Speaks volumes about the people who seek to control our lives.

DeVlaeminck

SecretSam wrote:

I'm for staying in. All this xenophobic crap about EU bureaucracy, etc. Ask 99% of exporters in the uk and tbey would want to stay in. This is all just political posturing by Cameron because a few of his braying fuckwits might lose their seats to the UKIP loonies. If we're not in Europe we are NOTHING and NO ONE

Well yes the economic argument is important and if it is economically advantageous to stay in I'd say stay in - but I think we should have a vote on it because democracy is rather important too.

What I don't buy is that those who want to come out are automatically xenophobic. There are reasonable arguments to be made around democracy, economics, population growth etc and even if you disagree with them branding those who don't want to be in the EU xenophobes is a pretty weak argument.

As for influence in the world. Sorry I don't buy that we lose any influence of relevance to our interests other than in the structure of the EU. Now that may be quite important but in terms of world standing - as far as it is important - we lose nothing.

ugo.santalucia

Bring on the referendum... the pro EU will win. People need a special reason to change the status quo... a few migrants using the NHS and a couple of outlaws and murderers is not a good enough reason. Most people whilst driving their Range Rover will wonder what effect getting out of the EU would have on their house price... or mortgage. It's a wealthy nation and individuals are deeply in debt... nobody wants change really... they like to talk about change, but change is scary.

If you want change, it's because you've got nothing to lose, which is prerogative of a very small minority in the UK (incidentally many are migrants).

If you want to help the NHS stop getting hammered at weekends, that is a bigger issue than any migrant coming here for treatment.
Besides, it's pointless to constantly harass people for charity if you are not even prepared to help other human beings because they're not born on this island... as if you were in poverty because of that... get over it!

EDIT: independence sounds like a great idea right now, but as soon as the banks will make clear the mortgages will go up and the property market will go down you'll start crapping in your pants and weep to stay in the EU, I tell you... look at what happened with the Scots referendum when the banks whispered a few words about the house market... and they're a much tougher lot than many...

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bring on the referendum... the pro EU will win.

I think this would be closer than you think. A lot of people will vote heavily influenced by the media. The Sun, The Daily mail and the Daily Express are very much anti EU, they are also read by a lot of people. A lot of people do not appreciate or understand the complexities of the issues of being in the EU or being out of the EU and how it affects them. These people will vote influenced by such media and their own prejudices.

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stevo... BA will survive, Easyjet and Ryanair won't... not without big cuts anyway...

Why? You haven't explained.

Because they fly to Europe? Nobody will come to London if it's outside the EU and fewer people will go abroad if it turns out to be a hassle with visas... the damage to the industry would be huge!

The banking sector will shrink... which is an issue bigger than any benefit row

Ugo. You may be too young to remember an organisation called the Common Market, that is what the UK originally signed up for. During this period is was very easy to travel throughout Europe (apart from those behind the Iron Curtain). I never had any problems visiting Spain, Greece, Italy or Germany. In fact on a trivial point it was quite interesting to look at the stamps collected in my passport. The UK will still be an extremely attractive prospect for European and global travelers. European countries will still want UK travelers, we are one of the most mobile populations in the region as far as overseas visiting is concerned.

As for import duties on goods. I believe that a UK removed from the EU may well benefit from lower import duties on goods from outside of the EU. It is a well known fact that Brussels imposes hefty duties on electronic goods and even food stuffs such as New World wines (in order to protect the old world).

As for the FS industry. The UK has, is and always will be one of the top global centres for commerce. I do not see this changing with a UK exit of the EU.

Ugo. If you are so pro EU membership for the UK please show me half a dozen tangible benefits to our membership and £bns in annual donations. I cannot see any. To me its all a one way street, with money draining from us to prop up countries that should cut their cloth accordingly.

Goo - bang on the money BTW and well put. I have not seen any tangible arguments to justify the £17bn a year we pay, despite both of us asking the question. I guess we just have to trust the the Brussels Eurocrats know what is best for us and are acting our our best interests

Part of what the EU says is encouraging free trade is disgused protectionism to insulate inefficient industries (such as French agriculture) from competition. As I said above, if it was such a great idea, everyone would be queuing up to get in. As I see it, the 'club' is quite popular with countries who stand to get more out than they put in. Effectively, this is no more than socialism on a European scale. No thanks.