And now Max Iglinskiy done for EPO

Pokerface

Bo Duke wrote:

In that light, why would Nibbles and Aru want to stay there and risk being blemished?

You're assuming that neither of them have benefitted in any way from "upper management's" supplemental assistance program. I, for one, have wondered how Aru became so good this year.

There's no guarantee they are both clean and that they would perform to the same level on a team that is more ethical. If such a thing exists.

of course, maybe they are all clean and it's just bad luck that Astana have had these positives in quick succession. Who knows?

Bo Duke

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt though they have undoubtedly benefitted from having better team mates to lead them round the courses faster hence better placing and opportunities etc...

mr_goo

Perhaps that's Vino's agenda. Have the two GC guys ride clean and supercharge the domestiques to tow them around.

lostboysaint

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/29647353 - looks like his strategy may be proving a bit risky.

nic_77

Mr Goo wrote:

Perhaps that's Vino's agenda. Have the two GC guys ride clean and supercharge the domestiques to tow them around.

Presumably that tactic is fairly simple to address... if one of your riders fails a test in any given event, the whole team is disqualified. Arise Jean-Christophe Péraud - (my) TdF winner 2014

mike6

nic_77 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Perhaps that's Vino's agenda. Have the two GC guys ride clean and supercharge the domestiques to tow them around.

Presumably that tactic is fairly simple to address... if one of your riders fails a test in any given event, the whole team is disqualified. Arise Jean-Christophe Péraud - (my) TdF winner 2014

Sounds good. Or, if a team has more than one positive test in a season, pull there licence for the rest of the season. They then have to prove a new testing and monotoring regime before they get re admitted for the next season.

fleshtuxedo

Stricter controls like these all make sense from a sporting point of view, and I'd support them, but it just makes the sport too much of a risk for sponsors doesn't it?

jscl

FleshTuxedo wrote:

Stricter controls like these all make sense from a sporting point of view, and I'd support them, but it just makes the sport too much of a risk for sponsors doesn't it?

Correct.

There's a fine line here. Whilst the ideal world is one where nobody is doing anything prohibited, it's just not the case.

It'd be very easy to apply the strictest of rules but whilst trying to improve the sport, you're actually damaging it. If one rider aside from the team programme decides to take prohibited substances, then it creates an issue for the whole team and that just shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Finding the right balance is the difficult thing at the moment. But it'll come, just give it some more time.

sherer

mike6 wrote:

nic_77 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Perhaps that's Vino's agenda. Have the two GC guys ride clean and supercharge the domestiques to tow them around.

Presumably that tactic is fairly simple to address... if one of your riders fails a test in any given event, the whole team is disqualified. Arise Jean-Christophe Péraud - (my) TdF winner 2014

Sounds good. Or, if a team has more than one positive test in a season, pull there licence for the rest of the season. They then have to prove a new testing and monotoring regime before they get re admitted for the next season.

could end up with lowly domestiques bribed by other teams to take a fall as well.

Maybe the UCI should just follow football and ignore the whole issue

schmolke

Riders are still doping and will keep doping. Cycling is not much cleaner than it ever has been. Riders got caught back then and riders are getting caught now. You all think because Armstrong was caught and a few nice sound bites by those involved will clean up the sport. Did you watch the Tour and Vuelta ? Cycling has cleaned itself up
If Contador and Froome want to dope and race I am happy to watch it.

rich_pcp

schmolke wrote:

Riders are still doping and will keep doping. Cycling is not much cleaner than it ever has been. Riders got caught back then and riders are getting caught now. You all think because Armstrong was caught and a few nice sound bites by those involved will clean up the sport. Did you watch the Tour and Vuelta ? Cycling has cleaned itself up
If Contador and Froome want to dope and race I am happy to watch it.

4 posts in and already you know what we all think!!!!!

Anonymous

schmolke wrote:

Riders are still doping and will keep doping. Cycling is not much cleaner than it ever has been. Riders got caught back then and riders are getting caught now. You all think because Armstrong was caught and a few nice sound bites by those involved will clean up the sport. Did you watch the Tour and Vuelta ? Cycling has cleaned itself up
If Contador and Froome want to dope and race I am happy to watch it.

Welcome back

thomthom

sjmclean wrote:

Welcome back

Yep. What was it his name was a few months ago?

schmolke

rich pcp wrote:

schmolke wrote:

Riders are still doping and will keep doping. Cycling is not much cleaner than it ever has been. Riders got caught back then and riders are getting caught now. You all think because Armstrong was caught and a few nice sound bites by those involved will clean up the sport. Did you watch the Tour and Vuelta ? Cycling has cleaned itself up
If Contador and Froome want to dope and race I am happy to watch it.

4 posts in and already you know what we all think!!!!!

No please do tell

Anonymous

rayjay

rich_pcp

schmolke wrote:

rich pcp wrote:

schmolke wrote:

Riders are still doping and will keep doping. Cycling is not much cleaner than it ever has been. Riders got caught back then and riders are getting caught now. You all think because Armstrong was caught and a few nice sound bites by those involved will clean up the sport. Did you watch the Tour and Vuelta ? Cycling has cleaned itself up
If Contador and Froome want to dope and race I am happy to watch it.

4 posts in and already you know what we all think!!!!!

No please do tell

Whoosh!
Hmmm, or is it a devious but obvious attempt to draw me into a fruitless discussion.

andyp

Pokerface wrote:

You're assuming that neither of them have benefitted in any way from "upper management's" supplemental assistance program. I, for one, have wondered how Aru became so good this year.

This is not about Aru per se but how can any young rider enter the sport and do well without suspicion if this is the stance fans adopt?

Either they come in and prosper immediately, and therefore must be doping, or they improve over time and therefore must be doping as their performances have improved?

It's a catch 22 situation.

blazing_saddles

andyp wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

You're assuming that neither of them have benefitted in any way from "upper management's" supplemental assistance program. I, for one, have wondered how Aru became so good this year.

This is not about Aru per se but how can any young rider enter the sport and do well without suspicion if this is the stance fans adopt?

Either they come in and prosper immediately, and therefore must be doping, or they improve over time and therefore must be doping as their performances have improved?

It's a catch 22 situation.

I'd say it's less of a Catch 22 situation in some teams, more in others.
Aru's meteoric performances, coupled to Vino's administration, coupled to a raft of positives, is bound to raise a few eyebrows.

Englishmanabroad

Some of the more unprofessional athletes will always consider using drugs as long as the sporting governing bodies take such as soft stance on drug abuse. If you get caught your getting a short ban if you don't get caught potentially your winning races and making money. Until the penalties are severe enough dopers will still consider it as a viable option.

Pokerface

andyp wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

You're assuming that neither of them have benefitted in any way from "upper management's" supplemental assistance program. I, for one, have wondered how Aru became so good this year.

This is not about Aru per se but how can any young rider enter the sport and do well without suspicion if this is the stance fans adopt?

Either they come in and prosper immediately, and therefore must be doping, or they improve over time and therefore must be doping as their performances have improved?

It's a catch 22 situation.

Aru has been around for a few years. And has gotten some results. But this year shot up to 3rd in the Giro and a contender in the Vuelta. That's a big leap in one year. And as Blazing said - the circumstances surrounding his team just further raise eyebrows.

I'm willing to give Nibali more leeway as he has improved year on year as I would expect.

It's when riders make meteoric leaps that you have to wonder if something is amiss.

andyp

This is his second year as a pro, so hardly a meteoric leap. He showed glimpses of potential last year, especially at the Giro di Trentino and the Giro stage to the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Do you think Adam and Simon Yates are doping too?

philbar72

andyp wrote:

This is his second year as a pro, so hardly a meteoric leap. He showed glimpses of potential last year, especially at the Giro di Trentino and the Giro stage to the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Do you think Adam and Simon Yates are doping too?

That would be ridiculous. Aru's rise is relatively ok, he's been known for quite some time.

Pokerface

andyp wrote:

This is his second year as a pro, so hardly a meteoric leap. He showed glimpses of potential last year, especially at the Giro di Trentino and the Giro stage to the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Do you think Adam and Simon Yates are doping too?

2nd year Pro and he's already a contender for overall in GTs? No, of course I don't find that a meteoric rise. :shock:

The Yates brothers have not done anything nearly as outstanding this year. Some good rides (and bad luck). But nothing suspicious.

rick_chasey

You need to be Kazakh to be done in Astana don't you?

andyp

Pokerface wrote:

andyp wrote:

This is his second year as a pro, so hardly a meteoric leap. He showed glimpses of potential last year, especially at the Giro di Trentino and the Giro stage to the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Do you think Adam and Simon Yates are doping too?

2nd year Pro and he's already a contender for overall in GTs? No, of course I don't find that a meteoric rise. :shock:

The Yates brothers have not done anything nearly as outstanding this year. Some good rides (and bad luck). But nothing suspicious.

LeMond was third in his first Tour, which was his first GT. Fignon won his first Tour, in his second season. Before blood vector doping, young riders with good recovery who would go on to win GTs, would demonstrate that ability very early in their career. Maybe, we're back there now.

I don't see how doing well in GTs at a young age is proof positive of doping. Quintana has shown that ability in his second year as a pro, as have Pinot and Bardet. I think it's normal, not meteoric.

iainf72

Pokerface wrote:

2nd year Pro and he's already a contender for overall in GTs? No, of course I don't find that a meteoric rise. :shock:

The Yates brothers have not done anything nearly as outstanding this year. Some good rides (and bad luck). But nothing suspicious.

So Aru has been identified as a huge talent for a while. Worked for Nibs in the Giro last year but we saw some flashes there. He did an excellent ride in Trentino. This year he's riding for himself and gets a good result. Seems like a perfectly normal trajectory to me

Would hate to imagine what you think of Quintana's rise, after all he was on podium at the TdF in his 2nd year in the World Tour.

Could they be doping? Of course. Does getting onto the podium in a GT second year as a pro indicate that? No.

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

2nd year Pro and he's already a contender for overall in GTs? No, of course I don't find that a meteoric rise. :shock:

The Yates brothers have not done anything nearly as outstanding this year. Some good rides (and bad luck). But nothing suspicious.

So Aru has been identified as a huge talent for a while. Worked for Nibs in the Giro last year but we saw some flashes there. He did an excellent ride in Trentino. This year he's riding for himself and gets a good result. Seems like a perfectly normal trajectory to me

Would hate to imagine what you think of Quintana's rise, after all he was on podium at the TdF in his 2nd year in the World Tour.

Could they be doping? Of course. Does getting onto the podium in a GT second year as a pro indicate that? No.

He had a very successful career at U23 level in Italy, in races such as the mountainous Giro della Valle d'Aosta, but given the appalling record they have in this category, I'm not sure it can be accepted as a safe marker for anything.

I have to admit that I had my opinion coloured by watching him battle Joe Dombrowski for the baby Giro title and seeing the American take him apart on the Gavia.
If ever two careers have "progressed" in opposite directions, since....

Anonymous

Pokerface wrote:

andyp wrote:

This is his second year as a pro, so hardly a meteoric leap. He showed glimpses of potential last year, especially at the Giro di Trentino and the Giro stage to the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Do you think Adam and Simon Yates are doping too?

2nd year Pro and he's already a contender for overall in GTs? No, of course I don't find that a meteoric rise. :shock:

The Yates brothers have not done anything nearly as outstanding this year. Some good rides (and bad luck). But nothing suspicious.

Quintana was a third year this year, and it was just expected he was going to win one. If he hadn't crashed he would have won 2. He escaped a lot of suspicion in just as dirty a team.

Pokerface

Quintana for some reason (to me) just looks like he has had consistently good results each year and a solid progression. Maybe because he's Colombian and they have a reputation for producing good climbers (is this a thing?) is another reason why he doesn't stick out to me like Aru does.

I'm glad there are people here more versed in these guys than me and I'm to be shouted down. One guy just doesn't quite 'fit' for me and the other does.

joelsim

Nibs has got himself a new doctor, Magni.