United Kingdom of What?

ballysmate

GTD

As I have said somewhere in these threads, I was firmly in the NO camp. My mother is Scottish and I have relatives dotted around Scotland. But not now.
The constant in your face bigotry from some of the SNP and the blaming of English/Westminster Tories for all of Scotland's woes has worn me down and some of us are waking up to the fact that you may vote YES. You yourself spat out the insult 'Tory boy' to VTech if I recall, for no apparent reason.
Salmond has been in our face telling us we WILL do this or that because he has a mandate from Scotland's people. WE WILL BE A FOREIGN COUNTRY SO HIS MANDATE MEANS FA. Get it?
He wants CU with that currency that is a millstone around Scotland's neck.
He wants to seamlessly join Europe/Nato on his own terms.
Anyone who raises legitimate questions is howled down as a scaremonger of is bluffing.
The SNP has been in power for 7? years and has the neck to blame everyone else for poverty/ unemployment / food banks etc. It had the means to raise more money but chose not to do so, choosing instead to lay all the blame at Westminster/English etc.
So vote YES if that is how you deem you will have the best future and good luck.
If the answer is YES, I will move lock stock and barrel to Scotland to open a snake oil factory as there seems to be a massive market up there.

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

How many English football fans have a vote in the referendum or play any part in campaigning?

Just a guess, but I can imagine quite a few in the Ibrox area.
Or English people now living in Scotland. It is not a 100% indigenous Country you know.

Of course it isn't 100% indigenous and English/Polish/ German/ whatever workers have a vote whilst Scottish servicemen garrisoned elsewhere don't.
As regards the Glasgow Rangers faithful, I can't see many of them making the effort to travel to English football ground to sing, can you? His point concerned English football fans.

ballysmate

pinarello001 wrote:

Living in Scotland, I have yet to come across any argument based on prejudice towards the English.

Labour are panicking because they are less likely to win a GE.
The Conservatives are panicking because they know the value of the Scottish contribution in terms of unity, international influence and finance.
The Lib dems are just jumping on the political bandwagon because they opted for the road to oblivion when they formed a coalition with the tories.

Re: Last Comments about Scotland... maybe ever...
Postby nathancom » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:26 pm

It is clear that Scotland can afford to be an independent country and is not going to suddenly become a Third World country overnight. Whether it should is for the people of Scotland to decide, though being divorced from little Englander types isn't the greatest loss.

Edinburgh and Glasgow are finer cities than most of what passes for civilization in England.

Didn't have to go far to find it.

arran77

Ballysmate wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

Living in Scotland, I have yet to come across any argument based on prejudice towards the English.

Labour are panicking because they are less likely to win a GE.
The Conservatives are panicking because they know the value of the Scottish contribution in terms of unity, international influence and finance.
The Lib dems are just jumping on the political bandwagon because they opted for the road to oblivion when they formed a coalition with the tories.

Re: Last Comments about Scotland... maybe ever...
Postby nathancom » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:26 pm

It is clear that Scotland can afford to be an independent country and is not going to suddenly become a Third World country overnight. Whether it should is for the people of Scotland to decide, though being divorced from little Englander types isn't the greatest loss.

Edinburgh and Glasgow are finer cities than most of what passes for civilization in England.

Didn't have to go far to find it.

Predictable who it would come from too

bompington

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

So now we're taking football crowd banter seriously? :roll:

as seriously as a couple of NO Posters being defaced.

I'm talking about large numbers of posters being vandalised - at one time it was was literally every one for 40 miles.
But you're deliberately missing my point anyway, which is that by tradition nothing chanted in football grounds is meant to be taken seriously.

arran77

bompington wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

So now we're taking football crowd banter seriously? :roll:

as seriously as a couple of NO Posters being defaced.

I'm talking about large numbers of posters being vandalised - at one time it was was literally every one for 40 miles.
But you're deliberately missing my point anyway, which is that by tradition nothing chanted in football grounds is meant to be taken seriously.

Quite, it's banter isn't it, just like a lot of the stuff that gets said on here, people may say that it's meant to be serious but it's not

Omar Little

Yes posters and signs are being vandalised too, its hardly unique to no signs.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-co ... affiti.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... b7093d9239

http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/we ... 985719.jpg

At the fringes there will be some headbangers on both sides but by and large though its not really a problem and both sides while passionate are also pretty moderate and cordial in person. However despite this there has been a concerted effort in recent months, particularly in the last couple of weeks, by the better together campaign to portray yes voters as anti-English and prone to intimidation and extremism. The recent protests at the BBC were quickly spun as some Putin like attempt to silence the media and freedom of speech however it was a protest that arose over a specific issue (namely how Nick Robinson spun a news report of a press conference - a distortion that might have gone unnoticed if the unedited footage had not been uploaded). Although im not a member of the yes campaign i had alot of sympathy with them on that issue, and indeed on other issues as the entire weight of the Westminster/neo-liberal establishment and a hostile media bears down on them.

Ballysmate wrote:

Of course it isn't 100% indigenous and English/Polish/ German/ whatever workers have a vote whilst Scottish servicemen garrisoned elsewhere don't.

Scottish members of the armed forces based elsewhere do have a vote.

capt_slog

thegreatdivide wrote:

Stupid stereotypical statements like ‘How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?’ only bolster the fact that the rest of the UK are just not getting it at all.

Yes, I'll admit it was a bit glib.

I'll take the answer as being ZERO then. Not a single YES voter will be influenced by the events of hundreds of years ago and everyone will be listening carefully to the debates to make an informed decision.

tangled_metal

If you read the online comments on news articles about independence vote you'll get a really good laugh. Well if you like reasoned debate you might not find it worthwhile but there are some pitiful arguments coming from both sides.

However my personal favourite has to be the woman (assumption based on the female sounding username) who just started posting in capitals "Salmond roasts babies!" at the start of her posts. Then she went on to say everyone from England is biased and spreading lies, propaganda and paranoia about the YES campaign. The babies comment is meant to be her humour about how the English, Westminster, tory press hating Salmond and the yes campaign in that faked headline she made up. Or at least that is what I got through the paranoia and bile.

Anyway, us English are not much better at times so leave nathancom alone. He just has his empassioned view on it and living in Scotland and I am guessing over 15 years of age and eligible to vote he has that right to express it (not locked up in prison or psychologically ineligble or some other means of exclusion from voting like a Scottish expat or in army overseas). Us English have a right to express a view through UK freedom of speech but don't have the vote, like Scottish ex pats and overseas serving soldiers, so we are a little bit like impotent observers in something that many feel is a bit of an unnecessary car crash that is happening up there on our English, northern borders.

To lighten the feel can i say that no matter what happens Scotland and all the other nations in the existing union will survive. There will be a hard time if yes wins for a shortish period (compared to the length of the existing union). However the economies are very similar if you take a step back. We are similar in many ways that it will take many years for our two countries to fully diverge socially, economically and culturally no matter what you might think. This similarity has been researched and commented on through this campaign but especially in a Radio 4 news and current affairs strand last week (Today programme I think). In that programme an academic from Strathclyde uni gave her assessment of the existing academic research on the Scots and the English attitudes. Was enlightening. One thing I remember is how the research into political beliefs of Scots and the reality based on policies that actually gained favour and became lawshowed that Scots were not as left leaning and egalatarian as their beliefs in themselves indicated. Basically Scots think they are civically minded (to paraphrase a Billy Bragg comment article in a Scots paper) where they believe in the common good. however the reality is they support laws or manifestos that are more centre right than that when it comes to the vote, are closer to English in that respect. In the same sources this academic noted the English have a closer relationship between their political beliefs and what they tended to vote for. If I understood right it kind of makes the Scots out to be romantics in what they say but realistic in what they do. They might want equality but would settle for them being better off, even at the expense of another group. Welcome to the selfish gene Scotland!! It's in you too.

debeli

I don't have a name in mind for either entity should the Yessists carry the day.

I'm not sure the impact will be all that significant for many who stay with Westminster. It is likely to be not unlike the amicable but ultimately pointless shearing of Slovakia from its half-brother the Czech Republic. Many in Prague noticed a slight bump and thought the train might have hit a rabbit or something...

That's how it will feel in much of the kingdom should the Yessists take the day. And if they want that, who can complain. The last thing I'd want to do is share my living space with someone who didn't want to be there. If they want ((and it is still an 'if') to take their ball and set up their own goalposts, that seems a perfectly fair and reasonable thing to do.

Where it leaves Northern Ireland, I'm not sure. I'd rather the whole of Ireland was governed from Dublin, but insofar as there are strong cultural links between Ulster and the British mainland, they seem to be with Scotland. Should NI not also be snapped from the rump UK and added to Scotland?

As to a name... most residents of many (not all) foreign countries refer to the UK as England, just as many westerners used to refer to the USSR as Russia and the US as America. To many people in the world, we are England and will remain so. What we see ourselves as seems irrelevant.

I find myself quite unable to predict the result but quite unmoved by either possible outcome. I have a feeling that many feel the same way.

verylonglegs

All the news items like to stress it's too close to call but the odds at the bookies are 1/4 for a no vote, a very heavy favourite. Quite a disparity.

nathancom

verylonglegs wrote:

All the news items like to stress it's too close to call but the odds at the bookies are 1/4 for a no vote, a very heavy favourite. Quite a disparity.

I don't think a Yes vote is that likely. They would likely need a decent lead in the polls as people are more likely to sway No when they actually have to place their cross. It is quite a leap into the unknown however certain people on either side claim to be.

The bookies are also trying to even the book by attracting money for Yes as they have heavy liabilities on a No vote. People were piling on No for months when the gap was much greater.