United Kingdom of What?

VTech

Also, to add if anyone else is stupid enough to think they may agree with you, the actual link you posted is on the cover of it confirming that makers are producing more yet exporting less.
The reason for this is due to the likes of Appleton who are now holding stock "ageing" for higher future revenues.
Its the same for most premium spirits where they age the product for a greater future return but they are clever with this.
You can buy futures as I have discussed several times on this forum, you pay before the product is made/bottled and that is STILL revenue although not directly as it isn't classed the same as sold products. Its classed as futures trading.

You then collect your produce in years to cove but as you have already paid years previously this isn't classed as a new sale, its classed as "delivery of stock"

This can be seen as tax avoidance to some which only adds to my argument as tax is not paid on futures.

Honestly my good man, your outa your depth.

I wouldn't have picked a fight with Bruno in the 80's, know what I mean

simonhead

VTech,

pull your neck in a little, i agree with some of your arguments but you are being a tad pompous.

pinno

Bauxite: Now mined in huge quantities in often destructive open cast mines yielding 1 ton of Alu from 2700kg's of Bauxite, whereas in the 70's it was less than 1700kg's. Mined using machinery, transported using machinery to a dock. Moved in large quantities by ship to some Eastern European country with awful pollution problems. Then graded, then smelted then transported again to Aluminium processors etc etc...
1 ton of recycled Alu requires 1/20th of the energy than that from ore.

Vtech, you used Jamaica as an example of a country that wasn't doing so well after independence and then fredmac posts the GDP pre capita which underlined a spurious comparison.

VTech

pinarello001 wrote:

Bauxite: Now mined in huge quantities in often destructive open cast mines yielding 1 ton of Alu from 2700kg's of Bauxite, whereas in the 70's it was less than 1700kg's. Mined using machinery, transported using machinery to a dock. Moved in large quantities by ship to some Eastern European country with awful pollution problems. Then graded, then smelted then transported again to Aluminium processors etc etc...
1 ton of recycled Alu requires 1/20th of the energy than that from ore.

Vtech, you used Jamaica as an example of a country that wasn't doing so well after independence and then fredmac posts the GDP pre capita which underlined a spurious comparison.

Have you read my comments ?

Bauxite should belong to the people of jamaica, its a national treasure, just as oil was/is to the scottish, thats my whole point.
The problem is that the majority of the money from bauxite has been made by others than the jamaican population due to corruption. We have palace just outside of montego and as you drive down to falmouth you can see vast areas that are gone.
They have basically eaten away entire mountains and where is the cleanup ?
What happens to the people in the valleys that have lived there for generations but now flood yearly ?



Using the value of a commodity as GDP is a lie and done by unscrupulous people in power to rip the people of the country off. In jamaica there is vast corruption, I'm so sorry if you feel this isn't the case.

ballysmate

Jim Sillars the former deputy leader of SNP has some interesting ideas, including the nationalisation of BP.
Chavez? Venezuela?
Apparently there will be a day of reckoning for businesses in Scotland after a Yes vote.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754

ballysmate

The oft repeated claim is that Scotland will always get the government it voted for. At present, it is the English and particularly London who are served by Westminster.
But take a look at this map. It appears that the majority of Scotland, including Pina and his neighbours, would get independence thrust upon them by just the people of the central belt.

symo

I want to say fail for posting a Daily Mail image. However it is a very cosmopolitan view of the new Sctoland.

However here is how clever independence is; you need 16 year olds to swing the vote. You also need to lie about the health service being privatised in Scotland (Salmond and Co have privatised 37% in the last year without any interference from Westminster).

To be honest I think the greatest trick that the SNP have pulled is that they have convinced Scotland they are credible alternative. 30 years preparing for this referendum, and they have basically no economic policy going forward.

Wow I mean wow.

DeVlaeminck

Ballysmate wrote:

Jim Sillars the former deputy leader of SNP has some interesting ideas, including the nationalisation of BP.
Chavez? Venezuela?
Apparently there will be a day of reckoning for businesses in Scotland after a Yes vote.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754

When was Jim Sillars actually an MP, 1992? He's also been a Labour MP. I think the publicity around his comments is just more of the scaremongering the no campaign have engaged in.

joelsim

Capt Slog wrote:

Considering that the outcome will affect me as much as anyone in Scotland, I can't help wondering why I don't get a vote on the subject, along with the rest of the UK.

I'm not sure anyone will be affected adversely other than Scotland to be honest after an initial period of instability. Salmond will go down in history. As a twat.

pinno

If Scotland gains its independence in the forthcoming referendum, the remainder of the United Kingdom will be known as the "Former United Kingdom" .......or FUK.

In a bid to discourage the Scots from voting 'yes' in the referendum, the Government has now begun to campaign with the slogan "Vote NO, for FUK's sake"

They feel the Scottish voters will be able to relate to this.

thegreatdivide

Joelsim wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

Considering that the outcome will affect me as much as anyone in Scotland, I can't help wondering why I don't get a vote on the subject, along with the rest of the UK.

I'm not sure anyone will be affected adversely other than Scotland to be honest after an initial period of instability. Salmond will go down in history. As a fool.

Just read your post on the other thread. You're a either attempting to troll or you're just very very I'll informed about how this country works. Then again, I take it by your signature that you live in London. I'll say no more.

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

Considering that the outcome will affect me as much as anyone in Scotland, I can't help wondering why I don't get a vote on the subject, along with the rest of the UK.

I'm not sure anyone will be affected adversely other than Scotland to be honest after an initial period of instability. Salmond will go down in history. As a fool.

Just read your post on the other thread. You're a either attempting to troll or you're just very very I'll informed about how this country works. Then again, I take it by your signature that you live in London. I'll say no more.

Doesn't the way the "vote yes" campaign is working suggest this ?
They are making out that the only loss will be to London and loss of oil and taxation ?

The losses will in reality be extreme for us all. The real losers however will be Scotland as they will to all effects be in a large pond with just a twig of wood to cling onto.

ballysmate

Some will see Salmond as the Messiah, leading England to the promised land.


On reflection, I could have posted this in the irony thread.

crescent

Days from the referendum and the vote is split right down the middle. Given that this is as high as the YES vote has been (it has been as low as 30%) it makes me wonder where the drive for independence is coming from? The electorate or Alex Salmond's own ambition?
I'm afraid it is independence at all costs for Mr Salmond and I fear that the costs may be considerable.

ballysmate

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Jim Sillars the former deputy leader of SNP has some interesting ideas, including the nationalisation of BP.
Chavez? Venezuela?
Apparently there will be a day of reckoning for businesses in Scotland after a Yes vote.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754

When was Jim Sillars actually an MP, 1992? He's also been a Labour MP. I think the publicity around his comments is just more of the scaremongering the no campaign have engaged in.

I see the Spanish minister for EU affairs was on Newsnight tonight.
The gist seems to be

1. Scotland would have to apply as a new state through Article 49
2. It could take around 5 years to join
3. Scotland would have to join the Euro.

Scaremongering?
Scotland may pay a heavy price to find out.

ballysmate

Interesting prospect?
There is a slender No majority. The moneymen and businesses were not bluffing and scaremongering and think,'Phew, that was a close thing!' and gradually relocate south.
The English have woken up to the perceived injustice of the Barnett formula and it is abolished. Scots MPs no longer vote on matters that don't concern them. Scotland suffers.
Well done Alec! You have f*cked your country.

Edit. Goes without saying that if people are not scaremongering, a Yes vote also f*cks Scotland.

DeVlaeminck

More likely a narrow no victory leads to greater devolution of powers.

I'd vote yes though, even if there is some financial pain in the short term. People can talk about the economy as a whole but the uk seems to be headed more towards a US style polarisation in wealth, the economy may do well but only a few really benefit, and in the UK our class system and lower social mobility means whether you are one of those few is determined by birth.

tangled_metal

Anyone else getting bored and just want it sorted already?

I've reached the stage where I no longer care which side wins. I can see benefits for both options. Independence wins and England gets to lose a few left leaning Scottish MPs. Tories get in because Labour have lost a good chunk of their natural advantage in the electoral system we have. Barnett formula gets a good looking at. Perhaps England might get their own form of devolution at Westminster through English votes on English matters and even regional devolution. There is already briefing behind the scenes and reports from Manchester about the Greater Manchester region getting an assembly. IIRC Manchester has a population bigger than N. Ireland, an economy bigger than Wales and higher growth than Scotland!

There are already a degree of localism going on with the city deals where English cities have been given more powers which are being used for development and growth. It is only the start I think. There will be a certain amount of rebalancing and courtesy of the Scottish referendum I can't see that stopping no matter what the result is.

Lookyhere

when ever big business is against something, it almost certainly means it ll be good for the majority.
Just like they are all against raising the min wage whilst they make huge profits paying their staff a pittance and we subsidise these with tax credits.
Companies like Tesco, let alone the banks, are not interested in what is good for Scotland or anyone else for that matter - we can all see that in how O2 EE etc have done over P4U and the 5k job loses.

As for the £, once the serious negotiations start, that opposition will be dropped in return for the keeping of Faslane and Rosyth, England has no where else to keep trident, Devonport is a fraction of its former size, having been sold off to housing and Falmouth is a tiny port, with no transport links.

Scotland go for it! Westminster will continue their SE centric policies and the English regions will be left to survive (decline) on their own - you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

bompington

Lookyhere wrote:

you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

Errr, no. Just no.

As for TM's comment on being fed up - a lot of us up here are indeed well fed up. In my case I am quite genuinely concerned about the febrile, shouty tone of the debate - and much as they would deny it, it's almost all coming from the Yes side.
On my drive to work, almost all the No posters have been vandalised. How many of the (much more numerous) Yes posters? None, of course. I simply don't hear No supporters telling businessmen that they'll get what's coming to them after the vote, throwing eggs and shouting down campaigners, organising demonstrations to put pressure on the BBC that include nasty personal abuse and intimidation of journalists. There is genuinely an atmosphere where No supporters are afraid to put their heads above the parapet, mostly not really out of physical fear but certainly the Yes side have managed to create an atmosphere where the question has become "Are you going to vote yes or are you an anti-Scottish evil lickspittle Tory lackey who wants to kill babies?"

What worries me most is that all this is not going to disappear after the vote, whatever the result. Either way, expect the English to go on being blamed for a long, long time.

Wunnunda

It strikes me that there seem to be an awful lot of old-style 'class warriors' carrying 'YES' banners with a nice Socialist Worker logo at the top (sic). The intimidatory tactics are all very reminiscent of the union v government aggro back in the 70/80s.

capt_slog

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

Errr, no. Just no.

As for TM's comment on being fed up - a lot of us up here are indeed well fed up. In my case I am quite genuinely concerned about the febrile, shouty tone of the debate - and much as they would deny it, it's almost all coming from the Yes side.
On my drive to work, almost all the No posters have been vandalised. How many of the (much more numerous) Yes posters? None, of course. I simply don't hear No supporters telling businessmen that they'll get what's coming to them after the vote, throwing eggs and shouting down campaigners, organising demonstrations to put pressure on the BBC that include nasty personal abuse and intimidation of journalists. There is genuinely an atmosphere where No supporters are afraid to put their heads above the parapet, mostly not really out of physical fear but certainly the Yes side have managed to create an atmosphere where the question has become "Are you going to vote yes or are you an anti-Scottish evil lickspittle Tory lackey who wants to kill babies?"

What worries me most is that all this is not going to disappear after the vote, whatever the result. Either way, expect the English to go on being blamed for a long, long time.

I'm many miles away from it all, but even 'down here', that's some of the feeling I get too.

How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?

ballysmate

If the turkeys do vote for Xmas, we need a politician to negotiate on our behalf and get the best deal for us.
Step forward John Redwood. Your country needs you.

thegreatdivide

Capt Slog wrote:

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

Errr, no. Just no.

As for TM's comment on being fed up - a lot of us up here are indeed well fed up. In my case I am quite genuinely concerned about the febrile, shouty tone of the debate - and much as they would deny it, it's almost all coming from the Yes side.
On my drive to work, almost all the No posters have been vandalised. How many of the (much more numerous) Yes posters? None, of course. I simply don't hear No supporters telling businessmen that they'll get what's coming to them after the vote, throwing eggs and shouting down campaigners, organising demonstrations to put pressure on the BBC that include nasty personal abuse and intimidation of journalists. There is genuinely an atmosphere where No supporters are afraid to put their heads above the parapet, mostly not really out of physical fear but certainly the Yes side have managed to create an atmosphere where the question has become "Are you going to vote yes or are you an anti-Scottish evil lickspittle Tory lackey who wants to kill babies?"

What worries me most is that all this is not going to disappear after the vote, whatever the result. Either way, expect the English to go on being blamed for a long, long time.

I'm many miles away from it all, but even 'down here', that's some of the feeling I get too.

How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?

So the current 'Fuxk off Scotland, we’re all voting ‘yes’ chant going round English grounds at the moment is all pro Union is it?

arran77

Ballysmate wrote:

If the turkeys do vote for Xmas, we need a politician to negotiate on our behalf and get the best deal for us.
Step forward John Redwood. Your country needs you.

Quite right Bally.

At the moment the government seem to be offering so many incentives for the no voters that we'll be well and truly left with the shitty end of the stick come next week

ballysmate

thegreatdivide wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

Errr, no. Just no.

As for TM's comment on being fed up - a lot of us up here are indeed well fed up. In my case I am quite genuinely concerned about the febrile, shouty tone of the debate - and much as they would deny it, it's almost all coming from the Yes side.
On my drive to work, almost all the No posters have been vandalised. How many of the (much more numerous) Yes posters? None, of course. I simply don't hear No supporters telling businessmen that they'll get what's coming to them after the vote, throwing eggs and shouting down campaigners, organising demonstrations to put pressure on the BBC that include nasty personal abuse and intimidation of journalists. There is genuinely an atmosphere where No supporters are afraid to put their heads above the parapet, mostly not really out of physical fear but certainly the Yes side have managed to create an atmosphere where the question has become "Are you going to vote yes or are you an anti-Scottish evil lickspittle Tory lackey who wants to kill babies?"

What worries me most is that all this is not going to disappear after the vote, whatever the result. Either way, expect the English to go on being blamed for a long, long time.

I'm many miles away from it all, but even 'down here', that's some of the feeling I get too.

How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?

So the current 'Fuxk off Scotland, we’re all voting ‘yes’ chant going round English grounds at the moment is all pro Union is it?

How many English football fans have a vote in the referendum or play any part in campaigning?

thegreatdivide

Ballysmate wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

you are better off with your fishing industry and the remaining oil stocks.

Errr, no. Just no.

As for TM's comment on being fed up - a lot of us up here are indeed well fed up. In my case I am quite genuinely concerned about the febrile, shouty tone of the debate - and much as they would deny it, it's almost all coming from the Yes side.
On my drive to work, almost all the No posters have been vandalised. How many of the (much more numerous) Yes posters? None, of course. I simply don't hear No supporters telling businessmen that they'll get what's coming to them after the vote, throwing eggs and shouting down campaigners, organising demonstrations to put pressure on the BBC that include nasty personal abuse and intimidation of journalists. There is genuinely an atmosphere where No supporters are afraid to put their heads above the parapet, mostly not really out of physical fear but certainly the Yes side have managed to create an atmosphere where the question has become "Are you going to vote yes or are you an anti-Scottish evil lickspittle Tory lackey who wants to kill babies?"

What worries me most is that all this is not going to disappear after the vote, whatever the result. Either way, expect the English to go on being blamed for a long, long time.

I'm many miles away from it all, but even 'down here', that's some of the feeling I get too.

How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?

So the current 'Fuxk off Scotland, we’re all voting ‘yes’ chant going round English grounds at the moment is all pro Union is it?

How many English football fans have a vote in the referendum or play any part in campaigning?

My point is that there are pricks on both sides.

Stupid stereotypical statements like ‘How many votes are going to be influenced by "what the English did to that nice Mr Gibson and his wife" in Braveheart?’ only bolster the fact that the rest of the UK are just not getting it at all.

The truth however is that the vast majority of Scots have been getting involved in open discussion about the referendum and are making an educated decision about their future. We didn’t just wake up last Tuesday and decide to have a vote. It’s got fuxk all to do with a hatred of England – far from it.

Some of you have come across with good argument, but some of the posts appearing on these threads are quite eye opening. There are a lot of very uneducated statements on here.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

How many English football fans have a vote in the referendum or play any part in campaigning?

Just a guess, but I can imagine quite a few in the Ibrox area.
Or English people now living in Scotland. It is not a 100% indigenous Country you know.

bompington

So now we're taking football crowd banter seriously? :roll:

nathancom

bompington wrote:

So now we're taking football crowd banter seriously? :roll:

as seriously as a couple of NO Posters being defaced.