United Kingdom of What?

verylonglegs

Pension pot? There isn't one is there, we are not like Norway...state pensions right now are taken out of current taxation, would that just continue to be the case in an independant Scotland?

mamba80

bdu98252 wrote:

Cameron was forced into giving the people of Scotland a referendum as SNP went to the last Scottish election and won a majority with a clear manifesto pledge of a referendum. To not allow this would be undemocratic and show the people of Scotland further that they needed to be independent.

undemocratic???? since when has that stopped them

it would be democratic to have a referendum on immigration, death penalty and the EU or non stop house building but they wont, cause they know the answer and they don't like it.
the anti war rallies and the fox hunting ban, both show they will ignore the peoples will when it suits them.

the snp won an election promising something that wasn't in their power to grant and that fool Cameron played Salmonds game.....

VTech

verylonglegs wrote:

Pension pot? There isn't one is there, we are not like Norway...state pensions right now are taken out of current taxation, would that just continue to be the case in an independant Scotland?

You know what I mean it may not be a pot full of cash but its a pot drawn from to pay pensions.
The issue is, where is that pot and more importantly, how is it going to be fed in order to pay out those claiming up north ?

mr_goo

Capt Slog wrote:

Considering that the outcome will affect me as much as anyone in Scotland, I can't help wondering why I don't get a vote on the subject, along with the rest of the UK.

Quite.
The Scottish independence issue is driven by nationalism and historic hatred of the English monarchy and rule by Westminster. When they gain their independence the next step will be to become a republic.

New name for whats left of the union: Britaniastan

random man

Scotland became part of the UK in 1707, 400 years ago, which isn't very long in the grand scheme of things. The main reason they joined was because they were broke, they'd invested all their money in Panama.

There is no natural bond between England and Scotland apart from a shared border, so I can't really see what all the fuss is about. If they don't get independence in the referendum, they will have more devolution, paving the way for independence eventually.

capt_slog

A mate was talking about the clocks going back soon. He pointed out that one of the reasons sited for this happening every year is for those north of the border, so that it doesn't stay dark until 10am (?).

Any chance of them having separate times do you think? We can carry on cycling in the light for much longer if they leave the bloody clocks alone, and be more in line with the rest of europe.

tangled_metal

Anti war rallies? Fox hunting bands? Jeez! Weren't those under Labour government? Blair's dodgy dossier war and his fox hunting ban? A labour government voted in and a Westminster controlled by a proportionally high number of Scottish MPs. Scottish MPs voting on matters for England which they can't vote on for Scotland. All from Labour's incompetence.

All this stems from the incompetent devolution courtesy of the labour government back then. Quite frankly if they had done it right all powers voted over to Scotland or Wales or northern Ireland get taken from MP's from those nations in Westminster then it would probably result in the last labour governments losing their voting majority. The devolution we have now is a totally unbalanced democracy.

The only good thing about a yes vote is the removal of Scottish MP's from Westminster.

Interesting thing about the differences/similarities between Scottish and English is in many ways we are more similar than different. Well that's what a lot of research on this concluded. Heard an academic discussing it on radio 4 on way home. Scots think they are more left leaning than surveys on their political views supported. English have no discrepancy between their political views and where they view themselves. Basically it sounds a bit like the Scots are a bit self deluding politically. Think it was an academic from Strathclyde uni.

tangled_metal

It's going to be interesting if yes vote wins. Feel sorry for the cross border workers. Paid in one country live in another... Tax is going to need to be sorted among all the other stuff.

How do you fix nationalities? Scots living away from Scotland would not get Scottish nationality. English living in Scotland become Scottish if they wish but can remain ex pat English in a foreign country. It's just so amusing the irony considering how the Scottish have such a high regard for their nationality. It'll kind of make ex pat Scots stateless.

Another consideration if the no side wins is what will the English want? Renegotiation of the Barnett formula so less money goes out of England to Scotland, Wales and N Ireland? Separation of voting of the nation's MP's so matters not affecting Scots aren't voted or discussed by Scottish MP's? That last one I'd like to see. Should have been applied from the start of devolution IMHO. Are the English going to ask for more for them? Hope so. Imagine if it was like that. Gordon Brown being unable to vote or debate on English matters?

Interesting times if independence wins!!!! Interesting if they lose too.

VTech

A point that bugs me is that a 16 year old scottish child can vote yet a tax payer from england who has funded the scottish government in revenues for many years can't.

Anyway, I think random man posted something important above, even if the vote is no, it is now only a matter of time. Once the idea is in someones head its always just a matter of time.
Normal folk do not have the skills needed to truly vote on this subject, there are things that governments must do but the problem is that they act for themselves, the best method to get the "next 4 years" !

How can a man/woman earning £75,000/year be better off starting a new company and renting himself out to his/her employer and then paying themselves minimum wage and the remainder in dividends ?
You may not think this is important within this issue but the truth is simple, its about the spread of wealth or at least the pretence of it.
We struggle in the UK to afford medical expenses and yet we all as tax payers cover those in scotland free of charge (who is paying this if yes wins?)

The top majority of high taxable earners in scotland bank outside of state including almost all of the oil companies who actually run the UK devisions at a loss (legal tax avoidance)
Yes we make revenue but nothing like the true amounts.
The yes campaign are very happy to suggest that scotland generates £56,900,000,000 in tax but this annoys me because its a falsehood aimed at deceiving people.

In business (governments are businesses or at least should be run like they are) you have generated income and true income, they are often different.

My business has a balance sheet, sales against income.
If I raised £2,000,000 in sales that does not mean I have generated £2,000,000 ! it just means that this is the amount I should have.
The yes campaign use this £56.9b as an amount because it is a vast sum but it isn't real, it doesn't allow for foreign banking or for taxable write-offs.

Allowing 16 year old kids to decide on your countries future when you won't even allow them to drive a car or drink a beer is very funny

mr_goo

Some cogent information from Vtech. Especially the health issue. This is I am sure is a major annoyance to most tax payers in the English part of the UK. Free prescriptions. Free Eye tests. Same for the Welsh. All subsidised by those that have to pay.
I am sure that if I was a 16 year old in Scotland and had a modicum of intelligence then I would vote NO. For the simple fact that £9,000 per year university fees will be a matter of fact and not the current £0 that is being paid for in part by me.

capt_slog

Mr Goo wrote:

Some cogent information from Vtech. Especially the health issue. This is I am sure is a major annoyance to most tax payers in the English part of the UK. Free prescriptions. Free Eye tests. Same for the Welsh. All subsidised by those that have to pay.
I am sure that if I was a 16 year old in Scotland and had a modicum of intelligence then I would vote NO. For the simple fact that £9,000 per year university fees will be a matter of fact and not the current £0 that is being paid for in part by me.

Yup, it is. I'm sure it will change when hey have their own social security to fund.

And I've never understood how they can have their own parliament AND have votes in westminster too.

tangled_metal

Tam Dalyell, Labour MP for the Scottish constituency of West Lothian, 14 November 1977:
"For how long will English constituencies and English Honourable members tolerate ... at least 119 Honourable Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English politics while they themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?"

William Gladstone in 1886 in a speech on Irish Home Rule bill:
“If Ireland is to have domestic legislation for Irish affairs they cannot come here for English or Scottish affairs”.

Captain Slog, Bikeradar poster, September 2014:
"And I've never understood how they can have their own parliament AND have votes in westminster too''.

Two very good questions and one good comment on the very topic of votes on English matters by non-English members of Parliament. This was answered in March 2013 y a commission on this matter. It proposed that legislation that affects only England should normally require the support of a majority of MPs who represent English constituencies. Basically take away the rights of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs to vote on English matters. That has had over a year to produce legislation, proposals or a white paper. Why have we not heard anything further about it? Is it not important to act on the recommendations of a Royal Commission? Are they just a waste of money to be ignored??

Sorry, rant and lecture over, (I'll stop spewing out wikipedia now!!!!!)

florerider

another way of looking at this is, having accepted devolution for Wales, NI and Scotland already why is Westminster prejudiced against England having it's own devolved administration?

VTech

Ive just spoken with a friend who touched on this subject and he told me that both major government credit agencies and in particular, moody's would almost certainly put scotland into a risk category as it would no longer have the backing in a financial link to england and therefore would mean a dramatic increase in credit line so expect 10%+ mortgages in the next 12-18 months if the yes goes ahead.

Just to give anyone interested a sense of how serious that is, look at it this way.

Couple buy a house for £240,000 as a starter home, currently they can get as low as 2.69% or £1100/month
Even if rates only increased too 8% they would be looking at £1852/month

Say your 40 and looking for the final retirement home and buy a £650,000 home at the same rates as above your looking at £2979 right now but £5017 if rates went up to only 8%.

Now some will say thats wrong and far fetched but look at what has happened elsewhere in the world when countries were either established or bankrupted and although scotland wouldn't be bankrupted, what do you think a non-established credit line is ?
It would quickly settle and I could see rates 2 points above england within a couple of years but thats if the market settled, the amount of people losing homes would hinder a quick settlement of the markets.
I strongly believe that scotland would keep a pound of types but what would it be linked too ?
it can't be linked to the UK pound as that is based on assets and debts held by england (currently uk)

In the uk we have huge debt but we have a triple a rating due to the fact the credit agencies know we can pay it back, others with far less best have gone bankrupt due to corruption or inability to survive the debt they have, portugal for example.
If i were based in scotland i couldn't bank there if they got the yes vote, it would be too risky for me and trust me, thousands will agree to that so then we have a run on the banks to remove cash for the safety of the english banks.
Then we enter a downwards spiral with money being pulled from scotland at all angles.

Ive tried to think of a good point for the scottish but I am genuinely struggling with that one.

slowmart

If the vote is yes can we invade and conquer the scots again?



Just for the oil you understand, I believe Bush & Blair had a blueprint and I'm sure we could dust it off and muddle through ........

rolf_f

random man wrote:

There is no natural bond between England and Scotland apart from a shared border, so I can't really see what all the fuss is about.

On what facts do you base this on? The actual opinions of the Scots and English or the deliberate stirring codswallop that the newspapers spout which is arguably the cause of all this nonsense?

Do you know what the opinions of the people who live in the border counties are? ie The people who really will become seriously inconvenienced even if a physical border isn't constructed (which of course will rely on Scotland negotiating EU membership minus Schengen which is doubtful).

nathancom

FREEEEEDOM!

random man

Rolf F wrote:

random man wrote:

There is no natural bond between England and Scotland apart from a shared border, so I can't really see what all the fuss is about.

On what facts do you base this on? The actual opinions of the Scots and English or the deliberate stirring codswallop that the newspapers spout which is arguably the cause of all this nonsense?

Do you know what the opinions of the people who live in the border counties are? ie The people who really will become seriously inconvenienced even if a physical border isn't constructed (which of course will rely on Scotland negotiating EU membership minus Schengen which is doubtful).

I was thinking historically, Scotland being a Celtic nation, while England has been far more influenced by European colonization. The Orkneys and south-east England really are worlds apart.
If I were Scottish I'd be looking at the former Yugoslav states and Baltic states and saying 'If Latvia and Montenegro can be independent, why can't Scotland?'

Borders are artificial, determined by politicians rather than ordinary people. In the EU borders don't prevent trade and movement of people like they used to, so should the Anglo-Scottish border be a barrier?

Most of the arguments against independence seem to be based on short-term thinking rather than what is best for future generations of Scots.

I could be wrong

arran77

nathancom wrote:

FREEEEEDOM!

When you get your freedom from us does it mean you'll need you're own Scottish version of BikeRadar too :P

rolf_f

random man wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

random man wrote:

There is no natural bond between England and Scotland apart from a shared border, so I can't really see what all the fuss is about.

On what facts do you base this on? The actual opinions of the Scots and English or the deliberate stirring codswallop that the newspapers spout which is arguably the cause of all this nonsense?

Do you know what the opinions of the people who live in the border counties are? ie The people who really will become seriously inconvenienced even if a physical border isn't constructed (which of course will rely on Scotland negotiating EU membership minus Schengen which is doubtful).

I was thinking historically, Scotland being a Celtic nation, while England has been far more influenced by European colonization. The Orkneys and south-east England really are worlds apart.
If I were Scottish I'd be looking at the former Yugoslav states and Baltic states and saying 'If Latvia and Montenegro can be independent, why can't Scotland?'

Borders are artificial, determined by politicians rather than ordinary people. In the EU borders don't prevent trade and movement of people like they used to, so should the Anglo-Scottish border be a barrier?

Most of the arguments against independence seem to be based on short-term thinking rather than what is best for future generations of Scots.

I could be wrong

You are making a better case for independence of Orkney and Shetland from the rest of Scotland than independence of Scotland from England!

As for the border being a barrier - if you have to go through customs twice a day to get to and from your job, you might regard that as a barrier.

VTech

nathancom wrote:

FREEEEEDOM!

As a scotsman and totally not wanting to start an argument with you, do you seriously want independence from GB ?
I noticed this evening that land in scotland is already being cited for euro and asian businesses so does that mean someone knows more than us on the outcome of the vote ?

The USA has always done well in that field as they have huge masses of unused land that can be used for foreign businesses to use and the ability to negotiate with the IRS on taxation percentages. If the scots did this it could be a saviour in the short term until stability ensues.?

nathancom

arran77 wrote:

nathancom wrote:

FREEEEEDOM!

When you get your freedom from us does it mean you'll need you're own Scottish version of BikeRadar too :P

One without you? Not sure the new nation could handle that...

I hope Cameron has got his diapers ready for 18th Sept.

nathancom

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

FREEEEEDOM!

As a scotsman and totally not wanting to start an argument with you, do you seriously want independence from GB ?
I noticed this evening that land in scotland is already being cited for euro and asian businesses so does that mean someone knows more than us on the outcome of the vote ?

The USA has always done well in that field as they have huge masses of unused land that can be used for foreign businesses to use and the ability to negotiate with the IRS on taxation percentages. If the scots did this it could be a saviour in the short term until stability ensues.?

I'm not really that interested in debating the ins and outs to be honest. What happens happens.

thegreatdivide

If the completely uninformed on this thread, flailing around with unfounded statements are at all interested in the facts, have a look at the current Q&A with Salmond that's going on on Facebook right now. He's answering hundreds of questions (out of the thousands that are being asked). It's an eye opener. But I'm aware that this is a big ask, so carry on posting absolute sh!te.

verylonglegs

Oh dear, he's pandering to the Facebook generation? He must be desperate to be popular.

jawooga

My 4 grandparents are/were from Ireland, northern Ireland, England and half Eng/Scot. I was born in London, grew up in Devon and work with many Scots and Welsh, many of whom are friends. So I really consider myself to be British, then English, then Devonian (although my wife refutes the last). I'm extremely proud to be all three and so my gut feeling is I absolutely don't want to be rejected by part of my bloodline and part of my heritage as a brit, on what seems to be a nationalistic ticket the SNP are flogging.

That said. When you consider the West Lothian question and the Barnett Formula, there are reasons why the rest of the UK should be happy to bid Scotland farewell. If you can ignore the logistics of redefining british government, re-locating trident, proportioning out the national debt, is it fair to say that the rest of the UK, specifically England will be financially better off in the long term?

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

If the completely uninformed on this thread, flailing around with unfounded statements are at all interested in the facts, have a look at the current Q&A with Salmond that's going on on Facebook right now. He's answering hundreds of questions (out of the thousands that are being asked). It's an eye opener. But I'm aware that this is a big ask, so carry on posting absolute sh!te.

I dont do Facebook but can you assure us that only the truth is being spoken ?

tangled_metal

Sorry I trust Salmond less than any Westminster politician. He just comes across as bluster and sound bites. A Scottish Blair but without credibility. Glad that whatever happens he's all your's Scotland!

tangled_metal

Anyone got the feeling the no side is employing the Canadian Quebec defence? Basically explaining why it's a bad idea isn't working so go emotional and say we don't want you to leave Scotland, please stay. I've heard it explained as using Salmond's emotive style rather than being factual. He uses phraseology based around the emotive image of a free Scotland. That image is so compelling it is capable of overcoming common sense of economic or practical arguments.

That Canadian vote in the seventies iirc and the Quebec independence went into the lead with two weeks to go. The opponents in Ottawa suddenly changed their arguments from common sense points to a simple we want you to stay argument. It was a panic action but they won. Independence only got 49.5% of the vote meaning no independence. There was a view that being that close they'd win the next referendum but there never was another. Both sides realised it was just too divisive and corrosive that neither side wanted to put it to the people again. Instead of making independence more likely the very close margin has prevented it happening. Canada is now a very stable country now, united and economically doing very well. Even the 2008/9 financial crash was recovered from quicker than any other developed nation. Not least because their financial regulation was effective. Carney played a role in that so taking him on in BoE was playing an blinder!!!

thegreatdivide

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

If the completely uninformed on this thread, flailing around with unfounded statements are at all interested in the facts, have a look at the current Q&A with Salmond that's going on on Facebook right now. He's answering hundreds of questions (out of the thousands that are being asked). It's an eye opener. But I'm aware that this is a big ask, so carry on posting absolute sh!te.

I dont do Facebook but can you assure us that only the truth is being spoken ?

I can assure you what's being said is much more informative than what you've contributed so far Tory Boy.