United Kingdom of What?

crescent

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry I trust Salmond less than any Westminster politician. He just comes across as bluster and sound bites. A Scottish Blair but without credibility.

You, sir, have hit the nail on the head with this statement.
Salmond is a brilliant politician but he is not a brilliant political mind and most definitely not a particularly brilliant man.

For my part, I get annoyed by people who suggest that a NO vote is somehow unpatriotic. I am a proud Scot who genuinely believes that we are better staying in the Union, so why is it unpatriotic to vote against something that I feel would damage my country beyond repair?
I have worked in the North Sea oil industry for 25 years. I wonder how many people are aware that the major companies like Shell, BP, Exxon etc have no more than a token presence in the North Sea now, it is not the thriving energy hub that it has been in the past. The major players are generally lesser known, smaller, lower profit margin companies who are themselves trying to bail out and sell off their ageing assets (by which I mean the majority of the platforms). There may or may not be several billion barrels left but that doesn't mean they can be accessed. It costs money to recover oil and, as the oil price fluctuates, reserves become more or less viable, especially in a mature oilfield like the North Sea where huge decommissioning costs have to be factored in as they have a huge influence on when to pull the plug on a particular field. Projects are regularly shelved and reinstated as this viability changes. The oil price is healthy just now, trust me, if the companies could get after those barrels they would be doing it now - they aren't. Oil is only one facet of the whole debate but anyone who bases their vote on promises of huge oil wealth are sadly misinformed. It is an asset - no doubt about that - but it is dwindling and dwindling fast.

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

If the completely uninformed on this thread, flailing around with unfounded statements are at all interested in the facts, have a look at the current Q&A with Salmond that's going on on Facebook right now. He's answering hundreds of questions (out of the thousands that are being asked). It's an eye opener. But I'm aware that this is a big ask, so carry on posting absolute sh!te.

I dont do Facebook but can you assure us that only the truth is being spoken ?

I can assure you what's being said is much more informative than what you've contributed so far Tory Boy.

I love it when someone with nothing to add to a topic uses anger or hatred to try and get a point across.

I've added factual information based on extremely high probability within my
Posts on this thread and your addition is to call me a Tory boy as if it were going to upset me.

I will admit that I voted Tory at the last GE but I'm no Tory fan, I think the system doesn't work but it's what we have and we need something. I also believe we are also much better off as a team than we are separated and have added monetary reasons to back that up which although you may dislike, it needs to be addressed.

The fact is that me and my family will not be effected by this financially, just the same as many millions of other English families but the same won't or can't be said for our Scottish counterparts and they are at this moment in time our brothers and for that reason I personally wouldn't like them to struggle or suffer.

Every middle too high earning Scott I've spoken too (admittedly only a handful) together with those retired on a decent pension are really having the sweats right now. Life could be about to get a whole heap worse.

crescent

VTech wrote:

Every middle too high earning Scott I've spoken too (admittedly only a handful) together with those retired on a decent pension are really having the sweats right now. Life could be about to get a whole heap worse.

Correct.
Unlike your spelling

Daz555

The new flag will look great though without all that blue to clutter it up. I think it might wind up some Welsh though for being very very "English" looking.

simonhead

Crescent wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry I trust Salmond less than any Westminster politician. He just comes across as bluster and sound bites. A Scottish Blair but without credibility.

You, sir, have hit the nail on the head with this statement.
Salmond is a brilliant politician but he is not a brilliant political mind and most definitely not a particularly brilliant man.

For my part, I get annoyed by people who suggest that a NO vote is somehow unpatriotic. I am a proud Scot who genuinely believes that we are better staying in the Union, so why is it unpatriotic to vote against something that I feel would damage my country beyond repair?
I have worked in the North Sea oil industry for 25 years. I wonder how many people are aware that the major companies like Shell, BP, Exxon etc have no more than a token presence in the North Sea now, it is not the thriving energy hub that it has been in the past. The major players are generally lesser known, smaller, lower profit margin companies who are themselves trying to bail out and sell off their ageing assets (by which I mean the majority of the platforms). There may or may not be several billion barrels left but that doesn't mean they can be accessed. It costs money to recover oil and, as the oil price fluctuates, reserves become more or less viable, especially in a mature oilfield like the North Sea where huge decommissioning costs have to be factored in as they have a huge influence on when to pull the plug on a particular field. Projects are regularly shelved and reinstated as this viability changes. The oil price is healthy just now, trust me, if the companies could get after those barrels they would be doing it now - they aren't. Oil is only one facet of the whole debate but anyone who bases their vote on promises of huge oil wealth are sadly misinformed. It is an asset - no doubt about that - but it is dwindling and dwindling fast.

Dead right, the companies that are worth something in Aberdeen are the service companies, that's where the cash is. Heard an interesting quote from a chap yesterday, he likened it to a couple getting a divorce and one person being indignant about keeping the 20 year old Vauxhall Astra.

greasedscotsman

Daz555 wrote:

The new flag will look great though without all that blue to clutter it up. I think it might wind up some Welsh though for being very very "English" looking.

How about this then?

VTech

How many of the oil companies pay full rate tax in the UK anyway ?
I worked for the biggest oil miner in Edinburgh who have a multi billion $ turnover yet I was paid from abroad.

Does any Scottish person really think that they are going to get the tax on the oil pumped out of the ground anyway ?

I also heard on the radio this morning that if we do split it means we lose our head-seat on the UN security council. Ive not checked this out yet but it was on the Chris Evans show.

simonhead

VTech wrote:

How many of the oil companies pay full rate tax in the UK anyway ?
I worked for the biggest oil miner in Edinburgh who have a multi billion $ turnover yet I was paid from abroad.

Does any Scottish person really think that they are going to get the tax on the oil pumped out of the ground anyway ?

I also heard on the radio this morning that if we do split it means we lose our head-seat on the UN security council. Ive not checked this out yet but it was on the Chris Evans show.

Not picking holes do you mean oil mining ie oil sands or exploration companies, only reason i ask is that most of the shale oil has been gone from edinburgh and has been for 60+ years, if its an exploration company like Cairn that is different. Cairn are a prime example of an organisation that has bought mature acreage and is playing their assets out.

laurentian

Meanwhile, England fans in Switzerland on Monday night appeared quite unequivocal in their position . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKuNXIgAxBw

(NSFW, May cause offence etc etc. . . )

ballysmate

I am English of a Scot mother and initially fervently hoped for a No. But not now. After all the anti English/Tory/ Westminster vitriol, I urge you to vote Yes. Go your own way.
As for Devo Max, I regard that as a betrayal of us down here. I believe the Scot Exec has the authority to alter tax =/- 3p and has never chosen to do so. Why is that if they truly want a 'fairer' society?
Devolution and devo max in particular would just ensure that Scotland continued to suckle at England's breast.
No devo max, no CU. Stand on your own feet.
It saddens me that I now think this way.
Well done Alec.

Of course that should read +/- 3p

VTech

simonhead wrote:

VTech wrote:

How many of the oil companies pay full rate tax in the UK anyway ?
I worked for the biggest oil miner in Edinburgh who have a multi billion $ turnover yet I was paid from abroad.

Does any Scottish person really think that they are going to get the tax on the oil pumped out of the ground anyway ?

I also heard on the radio this morning that if we do split it means we lose our head-seat on the UN security council. Ive not checked this out yet but it was on the Chris Evans show.

Not picking holes do you mean oil mining ie oil sands or exploration companies, only reason i ask is that most of the shale oil has been gone from edinburgh and has been for 60+ years, if its an exploration company like Cairn that is different. Cairn are a prime example of an organisation that has bought mature acreage and is playing their assets out.

Sorry, was referring to the company location. I worked for the distribution arm of the company, they have a fleet of 4600 vehicles but the HQ is in edinburgh. I worked on emissions control.

tangled_metal

Daz555 wrote:

The new flag will look great though without all that blue to clutter it up. I think it might wind up some Welsh though for being very very "English" looking.

I've heard talk of making the background green as in the Welsh flag background instead. Would that look any better?

tangled_metal

There are a few non-Scots expressing their sense of feeling slightly Scottish because of a distant Scottish ancestor (or not so distant if a Granny). Close enough to play for the Scottish national side but not really Scottish. Just thought I'd put that in before I admit to being not one jot Scottish!

I am mostly English, however I am part part Welsh, Irish, American, Spanish, German, Swedish, etc. All that dates back to great grandparents. I think there are many who have so much in their ancestry mix that they kind of don't get the nationhood aspects but see themselves as British. The one issue I have with this independence referendum campaigning has been how I have the clear feeling that there are many in Scotland (and Scottish ex pats who could soon become non-Scots as not resident in Scotland) who have so much Scottish patriotism or jingoism that it spills into hatred or vitriol towards the English as the main totemic enemy within the Union.

This is kind of awakening my sense of wanting to kick back. Whether there is independence or not I for one want things to change. My wish would be separation of the union into an almost federal structure where Only English representatives have a say in English matters. Where the per head capital spend is equal across the nations (whether that includes Scotland or not). No more Barnett formula, no more extra monies to Wales, N.Ireland and probably Scotland. If this means the Scots or Welsh need to start charging for NHS treatment or for higher education then so be it. Let it be on equal footing. I know there will be counter arguments probably quoting oil revenues or the contribution of large Scottish companies (RBS and some Scottish financials which will probably relocate to London if there is independence anyway). I just don't care any more about the other nations, sorry Wales and N. Ireland but I think you are going to get stuck with the fall out of this.

bompington

Tangled Metal wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

The new flag will look great though without all that blue to clutter it up. I think it might wind up some Welsh though for being very very "English" looking.

I've heard talk of making the background green as in the Welsh flag background instead. Would that look any better?

What would really help is if someone posted a pic in this thread...

bdu98252

Tangled Metal wrote:

There are a few non-Scots expressing their sense of feeling slightly Scottish because of a distant Scottish ancestor (or not so distant if a Granny). Close enough to play for the Scottish national side but not really Scottish. Just thought I'd put that in before I admit to being not one jot Scottish!

I am mostly English, however I am part part Welsh, Irish, American, Spanish, German, Swedish, etc. All that dates back to great grandparents. I think there are many who have so much in their ancestry mix that they kind of don't get the nationhood aspects but see themselves as British. The one issue I have with this independence referendum campaigning has been how I have the clear feeling that there are many in Scotland (and Scottish ex pats who could soon become non-Scots as not resident in Scotland) who have so much Scottish patriotism or jingoism that it spills into hatred or vitriol towards the English as the main totemic enemy within the Union.

This is kind of awakening my sense of wanting to kick back. Whether there is independence or not I for one want things to change. My wish would be separation of the union into an almost federal structure where Only English representatives have a say in English matters. Where the per head capital spend is equal across the nations (whether that includes Scotland or not). No more Barnett formula, no more extra monies to Wales, N.Ireland and probably Scotland. If this means the Scots or Welsh need to start charging for NHS treatment or for higher education then so be it. Let it be on equal footing. I know there will be counter arguments probably quoting oil revenues or the contribution of large Scottish companies (RBS and some Scottish financials which will probably relocate to London if there is independence anyway). I just don't care any more about the other nations, sorry Wales and N. Ireland but I think you are going to get stuck with the fall out of this.

As a Scot living in Northern England I have noticed a few English inequalities. Transport spending in London is 10 times higher than that of Cumbria. There is an imbalance for you right there. I am all for equality just not when it is someone preaching about someone getting more in one hand and ignoring the more they receive in the other hand.

jawooga

Tangled Metal wrote:

There are a few non-Scots expressing their sense of feeling slightly Scottish because of a distant Scottish ancestor (or not so distant if a Granny). Close enough to play for the Scottish national side but not really Scottish. Just thought I'd put that in before I admit to being not one jot Scottish!

I am mostly English, however I am part part Welsh, Irish, American, Spanish, German, Swedish, etc. All that dates back to great grandparents. I think there are many who have so much in their ancestry mix that they kind of don't get the nationhood aspects but see themselves as British. The one issue I have with this independence referendum campaigning has been how I have the clear feeling that there are many in Scotland (and Scottish ex pats who could soon become non-Scots as not resident in Scotland) who have so much Scottish patriotism or jingoism that it spills into hatred or vitriol towards the English as the main totemic enemy within the Union.

This is kind of awakening my sense of wanting to kick back. Whether there is independence or not I for one want things to change. My wish would be separation of the union into an almost federal structure where Only English representatives have a say in English matters. Where the per head capital spend is equal across the nations (whether that includes Scotland or not). No more Barnett formula, no more extra monies to Wales, N.Ireland and probably Scotland. If this means the Scots or Welsh need to start charging for NHS treatment or for higher education then so be it. Let it be on equal footing. I know there will be counter arguments probably quoting oil revenues or the contribution of large Scottish companies (RBS and some Scottish financials which will probably relocate to London if there is independence anyway). I just don't care any more about the other nations, sorry Wales and N. Ireland but I think you are going to get stuck with the fall out of this.

Exactly the way I feel. What I would like to know is, ignoring the logistics, what does the decision mean for the English?

jawooga

What happens if Scotland decide to keep the pound, irrespective of the blessing of Bank of England?

What stops them trading in sterling in their shops if they have the blessing of the Scottish authorities?

Presumably Scottish industries can still trade with the rest of the world buying and selling goods with sterling?

markhewitt1978

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

jawooga

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

I'm probably being thick, but can you give an example of when that might be a problem?

I can't imagine the Scottish economy being significantly different from the north of England in terms of industry, foreign investment etc, so I'm not sure strategic decisions made by the Bank of England on interest rates would impact Scotland more than our regions in England?

crescent

I work amongst a mix of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. A few months ago it was all light-hearted banter about "let them go", "we don't need them", "we're better off without them" etc. I think the realisation is dawning now that these are unprecedented times and it will not simply be a case of waking up in the rest of the UK and suddenly be instantly better off because Scotland are not receiving money from the UK coffers any more. I don't pretend to understand the whole Barnett formula but I think too many UK residents have a simplistic view of it. This will affect everyone regardless of where in the UK you reside.
I desperately want to remain part of the UK, I don't see why I can't be proud a Scot and a proud Brit at the same time, and I am without shadow of a doubt equally proud of both. Alex Salmond is on a mission to stick it to the English/Westminster/the establishment (delete as appropriate). He is asking people to vote with their hearts and unfortunately this is attracting a large number of people with the same "we'll show them" attitude. Scots have this reputation for being fiery and spirited and Salmond is using and abusing this to put fire into their bellies and spin it as "sticking it to the Tories" who are widely despised in Scotland due to the Thatcher years. This might make some people feel good in the short term if Cameron resigns, Westminster is in disarray etc but once the dust settles all the shortbread tin rhetoric of Salmond has to manifest into real, practical solutions. I'm not convinced that it will.

tangled_metal

bdu98252 wrote:

As a Scot living in Northern England I have noticed a few English inequalities. Transport spending in London is 10 times higher than that of Cumbria. There is an imbalance for you right there. I am all for equality just not when it is someone preaching about someone getting more in one hand and ignoring the more they receive in the other hand.

Really? Does that take into account population density, user mix, various demographics that affect the transport spend that is required? What I mean is living close to the Cumbria border (about 5-10 miles away) I have noticed it is not the same as a big city. There is fewer ppl living in a given area, most routes seem to involve longer distance routes that don't have the same demands on it as big city bus routes. I live on the 555 bus route which goes some distance. It only seems to fill up on the Windermere section north, tourists, whereas I've often been on full or very nearly full buses in cities. More buses and trains equals higher spend.

I have no idea of the figures but a dry figure such as 10 times the spend doesn't give any relevancy to your argument. Part of the reason could be say south lake district council does not generate as much revenue due to lower population density or business rates, it's supposed to be a relatively poor council. They can't contribute to rural transport hence lower spend? All possible factors or reasons for that dry figure. Although I do agree with your basic idea that I have focussed on the inequality caused by unequal political capital / democracy that is summed up in the West Lothian question. Fair in light of this being an independence that I thought. I do think any government should take issue with the critical mass of London and south east. It's like a high gravity body that's attracting too much of our county's wealth, both financial and wealth of human talent. However that's a bigger problem that a new set of legislation can't sort out.

tangled_metal

Crescent you are so right about it being much more than the Barnett formula. There's going to be huge fallout for rUK. We are already being viewed as a waning nation in decline in the world. Splitting up just means we are 8% smaller by population, don't know how much the UK will shrink when the Scots leave and or nuclear deterrent would have to be moved to somewhere really not suitable. It could result in losing it in worst case scenario. Lose that would further degrade our influence. We've got to split the armed forces to a level that our allies in NATO and elsewhere would see as making us unable to contribute to joint actions. That means we can't be relied on when needed. USA and others sideline us. Cue calls for our permanent UN security council place to be lost. Downwards spiral???

That's all just one view on the implications. There's many more implications. It's all big issues and nothing has been addressed. No one knows what will happen. It's interesting times indeed whatever happens. Enjoy the ride the best you can.

pinno

Living in Scotland, I have yet to come across any argument based on prejudice towards the English.

Labour are panicking because they are less likely to win a GE.
The Conservatives are panicking because they know the value of the Scottish contribution in terms of unity, international influence and finance.
The Lib dems are just jumping on the political bandwagon because they opted for the road to oblivion when they formed a coalition with the tories.

ddraver

jawooga wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

I'm probably being thick, but can you give an example of when that might be a problem?

I can't imagine the Scottish economy being significantly different from the north of England in terms of industry, foreign investment etc, so I'm not sure strategic decisions made by the Bank of England on interest rates would impact Scotland more than our regions in England?

In 50 years time (an impossible time scale for any politician to think of but probably within many of our lifetimes (hopefully)) There is a financial crash. Scotland has been independent for 50 years and is still using the pound the the Scottish and rUK economies have grown different

Will the Chancellor of rUK make a dcision that is best for rUK or factor in what will also help Scotland?

Trouble is that Salmond is only interested in calling himself Prime Minister for maybe 4 years after 2016 and doesnt give a monkeys about the state of this country in 10, 20, 50 years etc...

VTech

jawooga wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

I'm probably being thick, but can you give an example of when that might be a problem?

I can't imagine the Scottish economy being significantly different from the north of England in terms of industry, foreign investment etc, so I'm not sure strategic decisions made by the Bank of England on interest rates would impact Scotland more than our regions in England?

This is one of the issue. People on the whole have no idea of the implications.
They can have a pound but on what basis? How is it traded. Who would trade it ?
The only people trading decently would be out for huge profit which drops the value. Then you have the penny traders after huge profits.
I couldn't invest in Scotland because of uncertainty (not in a literal sense) and the same goes for foreign investment which will happen but as deals bad for the Scottish people as the government sell bonds and land at poor value to cover over the mess they have caused.

This is going to be bad for is all. For Scottish who will be broke for several generations and for the English who will lose placement on the major security councils.

Talking about wether the yes/no vote goes to either side is pointless really. It's now just a matter of time anyway.

99.99999% of people have absolutely no idea how bad this is going to be for the next 50-75 years.
The same happened with Jamaica and they did reall well, didn't they ?????

bdu98252

Tangled Metal wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

As a Scot living in Northern England I have noticed a few English inequalities. Transport spending in London is 10 times higher than that of Cumbria. There is an imbalance for you right there. I am all for equality just not when it is someone preaching about someone getting more in one hand and ignoring the more they receive in the other hand.

Really? Does that take into account population density, user mix, various demographics that affect the transport spend that is required? What I mean is living close to the Cumbria border (about 5-10 miles away) I have noticed it is not the same as a big city. There is fewer ppl living in a given area, most routes seem to involve longer distance routes that don't have the same demands on it as big city bus routes. I live on the 555 bus route which goes some distance. It only seems to fill up on the Windermere section north, tourists, whereas I've often been on full or very nearly full buses in cities. More buses and trains equals higher spend.

I have no idea of the figures but a dry figure such as 10 times the spend doesn't give any relevancy to your argument. Part of the reason could be say south lake district council does not generate as much revenue due to lower population density or business rates, it's supposed to be a relatively poor council. They can't contribute to rural transport hence lower spend? All possible factors or reasons for that dry figure. Although I do agree with your basic idea that I have focussed on the inequality caused by unequal political capital / democracy that is summed up in the West Lothian question. Fair in light of this being an independence that I thought. I do think any government should take issue with the critical mass of London and south east. It's like a high gravity body that's attracting too much of our county's wealth, both financial and wealth of human talent. However that's a bigger problem that a new set of legislation can't sort out.

London spends around £2500 per person on transport infrastructure projects. Cumbria spends around £254 per person. The quality of the roads in poor rail travel is practically no existent from the West side of the Lake District and bus travel is not any better. Given that a lot of this money is from tax payer contributions I would suggest that the above is unfair and leads to further deprivation as no company would set up a company in this region due to the poor transport links. Want to get to a flight at Manchester from my area then drive as there are no other practical options.

bdu98252

VTech wrote:

jawooga wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

I'm probably being thick, but can you give an example of when that might be a problem?

I can't imagine the Scottish economy being significantly different from the north of England in terms of industry, foreign investment etc, so I'm not sure strategic decisions made by the Bank of England on interest rates would impact Scotland more than our regions in England?

This is one of the issue. People on the whole have no idea of the implications.
They can have a pound but on what basis? How is it traded. Who would trade it ?
The only people trading decently would be out for huge profit which drops the value. Then you have the penny traders after huge profits.
I couldn't invest in Scotland because of uncertainty (not in a literal sense) and the same goes for foreign investment which will happen but as deals bad for the Scottish people as the government sell bonds and land at poor value to cover over the mess they have caused.

This is going to be bad for is all. For Scottish who will be broke for several generations and for the English who will lose placement on the major security councils.

Talking about wether the yes/no vote goes to either side is pointless really. It's now just a matter of time anyway.

99.99999% of people have absolutely no idea how bad this is going to be for the next 50-75 years.
The same happened with Jamaica and they did reall well, didn't they ?????

It is not for the voters to understand every role in the finance and government sector prior to making a decision and to suggest that a population cannot make a decision in their best interests effectively renders democracy pointless and we all know what the alternative is. This is a vote on governance and some of the figures quoted today are laughable. 2.6billion drop in value in Scottish companies costing every person in Scotland £400. For a start this has cost shareholders and this will continue to happen to companies in the UK as a whole until the UK government actually spell out who they intend to organise independence post a Yes vote. The volatility is primarily caused by the UK government wish to show all Scots that they are on a precipice and voting Yes will see them penniless forever. Whoooooooooooooooooooh. It really is like a children's story involving ghosts.

VTech

bdu98252 wrote:

VTech wrote:

jawooga wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes they can any country can use any currency.

Problem is they'll have a central bank over which they have no say.

I'm probably being thick, but can you give an example of when that might be a problem?

I can't imagine the Scottish economy being significantly different from the north of England in terms of industry, foreign investment etc, so I'm not sure strategic decisions made by the Bank of England on interest rates would impact Scotland more than our regions in England?

This is one of the issue. People on the whole have no idea of the implications.
They can have a pound but on what basis? How is it traded. Who would trade it ?
The only people trading decently would be out for huge profit which drops the value. Then you have the penny traders after huge profits.
I couldn't invest in Scotland because of uncertainty (not in a literal sense) and the same goes for foreign investment which will happen but as deals bad for the Scottish people as the government sell bonds and land at poor value to cover over the mess they have caused.

This is going to be bad for is all. For Scottish who will be broke for several generations and for the English who will lose placement on the major security councils.

Talking about wether the yes/no vote goes to either side is pointless really. It's now just a matter of time anyway.

99.99999% of people have absolutely no idea how bad this is going to be for the next 50-75 years.
The same happened with Jamaica and they did reall well, didn't they ?????

It is not for the voters to understand every role in the finance and government sector prior to making a decision and to suggest that a population cannot make a decision in their best interests effectively renders democracy pointless and we all know what the alternative is. This is a vote on governance and some of the figures quoted today are laughable. 2.6billion drop in value in Scottish companies costing every person in Scotland £400. For a start this has cost shareholders and this will continue to happen to companies in the UK as a whole until the UK government actually spell out who they intend to organise independence post a Yes vote. The volatility is primarily caused by the UK government wish to show all Scots that they are on a precipice and voting Yes will see them penniless forever. Whoooooooooooooooooooh. It really is like a children's story involving ghosts.

Im with you but the problem is that after a yes vote you will have a government who "need" to show what is possible and that the decision to break away was correct. This is identical to jamaica and other countries who have gone through similar.
The problem isn't the people with a lack of understanding, its the money makers who will rape the country for all it has and the people in charge having no backup and therefor making bad choices.

Scotland has lots of valuable land to businesses and forget transport, people have cars and will travel, its about tax first and foremost.

This is how jamaica did it.

They gained independence.

The government lost a lot of funding.

Traders bought and sold both currency and natural resources.

The government lost huge sums of wealth as traders took the money.

The government sold land to the boxite companies with poor contracts due to having their back against the wall.

These companies ate away mountains and left canyons and graveyards across the island without cleaning it up which has lost thousands of people their homes and caused damage that will take centuries to clear up.

50 years on and the country has got one of the highest murder rates per capita, I can go to jamaica and commit almost any crime and as long as I have a few dollars in my pocket I can still catch the next flight back to the UK and disappear into the night.

Now we all know, scotland is a country mile from jamaica but the principles will be the same due to the officials thinking short term and not having the benefit of a lifetime vision. It is without this lifetime vision that the problems will in fact become prominent, bad choices will be made and scotts will suffer.
The fact is, it isn't going to effect me, not in the slightest, it probably won't effect any of us here in a huge way but it will our kids and grand kids.

Some will argue with me on my points above but mark my words, you will see contracts made by the government or people in power that will make your eyes water.

capt_slog

ddraver wrote:

Trouble is that Salmond is only interested in calling himself Prime Minister for maybe 4 years after 2016 and doesnt give a monkeys about the state of this country in 10, 20, 50 years etc...

I get this feeling too. Cameron's comment yesterday about this referendum being a 'long term' thing and not just some sort of by-election-protest-vote was spot-on.

I was particularly disgusted by salmond's comments about Cameron et al, jetting up to Scotland for the day, and how this was panic tactics on their part. I've no doubt he would have been just as out-spoken if they hadn't gone up there sometime over these few weeks, he could then have said that their absence was due to indifference.

Political rhetoric gets on my tits at the best of times. I feel there's no place for it in this situation and I wish they'd stop playing their usual silly games and look at it a bit more seriously

VTech

Capt Slog wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Trouble is that Salmond is only interested in calling himself Prime Minister for maybe 4 years after 2016 and doesnt give a monkeys about the state of this country in 10, 20, 50 years etc...

I get this feeling too. Cameron's comment yesterday about this referendum being a 'long term' thing and not just some sort of by-election-protest-vote was spot-on.

I was particularly disgusted by salmond's comments about Cameron et al, jetting up to Scotland for the day, and how this was panic tactics on their part. I've no doubt he would have been just as out-spoken if they hadn't gone up there sometime over these few weeks, he could then have said that their absence was due to indifference.

Political rhetoric gets on my tits at the best of times. I feel there's no place for it in this situation and I wish they'd stop playing their usual silly games and look at it a bit more seriously

Whoever leads cot land after a yes vote will be in for a payday like no other.
So great indeed that he/she will be farting through silk for eternity.

Obviously to the detriment of the scottish people of course.