TDF Stage 10-Mulhouse-La Planche des Belles Filles *spoiler*

ContrelaMontre

darkhairedlord wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

I am not discussing this further with you. If you want to be obtuse about the situation and base your opinions on thinking people are lying then so be it. It couldnt be clearer you are wrong but if you want to believe Contador did not have form then I can live with that.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lying in this context.

Good - I think it's an enormous pity Contador and Froome are out.

hardly a model citizen is he?

Bradley Wiggins was in the form of his life going into the Giro last year remember. Safe to say we can take a rider's public acclamations of amazing form with a pinch of salt.

Fact is Tour de France winners don't crash. There does seem to be a link between riders on good form and staying upright.

Coriander

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Fact is Tour de France winners don't crash. There does seem to be a link between riders on good form and staying upright.

Is this one for Above the Cows's correlation is not causation? Do men win the Tour because they haven't crashed, or do they not crash because they are Tour winning standard riders?

No_Ta_Doctor

frenchfighter wrote:

Really? Please provide examples.
I will apologize if what I have said is out of order and the person concerned is upset. This is not likely to be the case.

Some self awareness wouldn't go amiss, FF.

You just called a poster who is noted for his impartiality, objectivity and realism "obtuse". I doubt he's particularly upset about it, but it sets the tone.

dsoutar

There have been several anecdotal quotes from other people that were at the scene that Contador was taking undue risks given the conditions (road, weather etc). IMHO, riders who are confident about gaining time back, and let's face it this wasn't a real mountain stage compared to later stages in this year's parcours, will assess this and wait for better chances to present themselves to gain advantages.

I see no reason why Contador,whose bike handling may be better than some but is far from superlative, would take these sort of risks if he was confident of gaining time back in later stages where someone who was in the form of their life would have ample opportunities to do so. In fact one could argue that Contador's reluctance on he cobbles gave a good indication of his risk assessment mentality given what he thought of his form at that time. Of course that was almost a week ago now and riders assessment of their form can change; after all it's been one of the harder starts to a Tour for years .

Let's just remember a couple of things:

1. Team-mates rarely speak negatively of each other so we can treat a lot of what comes out of Tinkoff-Saxo with a large pinch of salt

2. Sport is littered with people declaring them to be better than they have ever been / in the form of their life etc etc etc who subsequently go on to prove quite the opposite. It's only natural as you're hardly going to say otherwise

Ultimately he's out and we have to move on and enjoy the racing from this point. There's still almost 2 weeks left and if the last week has demonstrated anything it's that a lot can still happen.

No matter who you are, whether it's FF, Riis or Oleg we will never know and stating anything else is just total fantasy. I personally,from what I've saw in the last 8 days, don't think he still had the form from the Dauphine and I don't believe that there was a lot of evidence to support that view. Others are, of course, entitled to form different opinions.

dish_dash

Graeme_S wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

Not sure I've seen this posted yet. Here's Nico Roche's view. Clearly talks of a broken bike and one heck of a crash...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-s ... 31225.html

That makes much more sense. I'd heard some suggestion before that Contador had crashed once, taken Roche's bike and then had the second serious crash that caused his injury while riding Roche's bike. This didn't make sense as Roche's bike doesn't look like it's been crashed at 70 kph in the photos of Contador standing at the roadside. This also explains why Contador was being treated on an uphill stretch of road when the later descriptions said he crashed on the descent.

So Contador crashed on the descent, took Roche's bike and then stopped 2km later for treatment which is where he was when we got TV footage of him being treated. In the article Roche says Contador's bike was "broken", but he doesn't say the frame snapped. The pictured bike earlier in the thread with the ripped bar tape and knackered shifters could be accurately described as "broken".

Yep, good summary. And explains why the team car was rushing up to get to him (smashing spare bike on belkin car on the way).

oscarbudgie

I hear his knee was bleeding very badly after the crash but I suppose if he need a transfusion they could have used his rest day bag a day early

ContrelaMontre

Coriander wrote:

Do men win the Tour because they haven't crashed, or do they not crash because they are Tour winning standard riders?

Does it matter?

Anonymous

frenchfighter wrote:

And it doesn't take any skill whatsoever to understand that he and his team would have done everything to make his form peak for the Tour.

You're right, it doesn't. Convicted doper, with convicted doper boss, who's main mountain helper busted days before tour starts for doping. It doesn't take any skill to know they would do anything to win. Shame it was the day before his first blood bag and we couldn't see him at his glowing peak.


In terms of why he would be pushing it, was he not 4 minutes behind after 10 stages and maybe he thought you know what, I'll do what I'm renowned for (other that cheating) and push it to far on a dangerous descent?

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

In the Dauphine he single handedly took minutes out of the others after he and Froome has stopped racing and the gap opened. He also held Froome's wheel who was going 150%.

I agree - top top form. Just a shame then for him that his bike handling/positioning was so suspect and his bone density so low.

What promised to be a battle royale in the mountains this year has turned into a damp squib. Still been a good Tour, but not what I had hoped for!

frenchfighter

In 68 photos on letour website for yesterday's stage there are...0 photos of Contador :roll:

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

In 68 photos on letour website for yesterday's stage there are...0 photos of Contador :roll:

That is very odd considering what a big story he was yesterday.

Photo guys were probably trying to catch Wiggo brushing his hair.

adr82

frenchfighter wrote:

In 68 photos on letour website for yesterday's stage there are...0 photos of Contador :roll:

The 3rd photo is of Contador and Gallopin at the start. Can't even recognise your own hero now? Most of the rest are at the stage finish, which of course Contador did not reach.

Not to mention you'd just be complaining about lack of respect if there were dozens of photos of him getting treatment and climbing into the car.

mike6

I always watch the Tour and love every second of it. Now that Froome and Contador are out I am even looking forward to coming on the forum every day to discuss what has gone on. Without the childish Froome hate and Contador love it will be a more relaxing place to talk cycling.

There again, what odds the nutters pick someone else to vent there spite on and who might it be?

inseine

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

You telling me he can perform amazingly all year then you suggest that when he turns up at the Tour his form is on a downward spiral? Wishful thinking.

He was about 25th position in the bunch 100km from the finish. Would you like to explain to me why he would ride like a nutter on the descent? There is no reason whatsoever for him to do so.

Why not? It happens. In terms of his form, for me alarm bells rang when he burnt his team on the front all day and didn't make any real inroads into Nibali. They wouldn't happen with an on-song Contador.

I don't know why he'd have ridden like a Nutter. A few people have commented on it, who were there. You and I weren't. You side with Contador, I'm neutral, and the riders who've commented don't really have any vested interest.

I said the same thing at the time, but most people seem to have thought they rode well to whittle down the top ten. To me, I can't help thinking thye expected a lot more.
He was obviously going well though and it would've been interesting to see a real battle in the high mountains. I have less hope for the others taking it to Nibali.

frenchfighter

Re Porte comments earlier, here is what he had to say:

"I was the only one who responded when Nibali went, but I guess that’s racing. I felt good today but it’s not great to be towing everybody to the line. If Vincenzo goes I guess you have to respond. He’s got enough time already so I didn't really want him to get any more."

DeVlaeminck

inseine wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

You telling me he can perform amazingly all year then you suggest that when he turns up at the Tour his form is on a downward spiral? Wishful thinking.

He was about 25th position in the bunch 100km from the finish. Would you like to explain to me why he would ride like a nutter on the descent? There is no reason whatsoever for him to do so.

Why not? It happens. In terms of his form, for me alarm bells rang when he burnt his team on the front all day and didn't make any real inroads into Nibali. They wouldn't happen with an on-song Contador.

I don't know why he'd have ridden like a Nutter. A few people have commented on it, who were there. You and I weren't. You side with Contador, I'm neutral, and the riders who've commented don't really have any vested interest.

I said the same thing at the time, but most people seem to have thought they rode well to whittle down the top ten. To me, I can't help thinking thye expected a lot more.
He was obviously going well though and it would've been interesting to see a real battle in the high mountains. I have less hope for the others taking it to Nibali.

Contador looked pretty good to me - he dropped Nibali even if it was only for 3 seconds and Nibali has since gone on to drop the rest of the contenders including useful riders like Porte and Valverde. I'd be inclined to give Nibali some credit rather than question Contador's form - it's easy to judge the likes of Contador and Froome by their very best days but those aren't typical - it's not as if they have routinely ridden everyone off their wheel on every mountain top finish.

inseine

Of course it’s all hypothetical at this point, but I would have thought a Contador ‘on the form of his life’ would have taken more out of Nibali.
His team drilled it to gain 3 seconds on a hill I would have thought was more Contador than Nibabli.
Porte said it wasn’t his sort of climb, which I think is true.
Froome would’ve probably been there with Contador.

FF, there is no such thing as 150% in this context. I'm sorry but that just sounds stupid.

mike6

Difficult to say, but Contador's big attack was not convincing. He only got 3 seconds on Nibs and another couple on Porte so hardly a huge success for so much effort, and the steep climb suited him most. Come the long Alpine and Pyrenean climbs and the other two would be more comfortable, look at Porte last year.

Contador is not the explosive climber he once was, now he attacks, has to sit down, recover, then have another go, he cant sustain an attack anymore.

frenchfighter

inseine wrote:

FF, there is no such thing as 150% in this context. I'm sorry but that just sounds stupid.

It is a turn of phrase you pedant.

dwanes

frenchfighter wrote:

Re Porte comments earlier, here is what he had to say:

"I was the only one who responded when Nibali went, but I guess that’s racing. I felt good today but it’s not great to be towing everybody to the line. If Vincenzo goes I guess you have to respond. He’s got enough time already so I didn't really want him to get any more."

Too much indecision by Porte on this in the final stages.
Porte spent too much time dwelling on 'towing everybody to the line' (even at one point switching to the other side of the road) instead of responding, and reducing the deficit, to Nibali and the result showed in the end.

ddraver

Hmmm, Well you can imagine if Roche had crashed, Bertie had had a small incident, bikes were not on the car where they should have been then TKS riders and cars would have been giving it rizz in the descent to catch up whilst not paying full attention. Sounds like a few minutes of panic from the team might have done for Alberto yesterday

FF was notable by his magnanimousness (word?) when my guy went out so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt now his has

Porte's in a difficult position of having to defend his No 2 spot (which was never supposed to be his in the first place) whilst trying to gain time on a rider who is a long way further ahead than his podium rivals are behind.

The_Boy

ddraver wrote:

Hmmm, Well you can imagine if Roche had crashed, Bertie had had a small incident, bikes were not on the car where they should have been then TKS riders and cars would have been giving it rizz in the descent to catch up whilst not paying full attention. Sounds like a few minutes of panic might have done for Alberto yesterday

FF was notable by his magnanimousness (word?) when my guy went out so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt now his has

Magnanimity.

#annoyingdictionarycunt

ddraver

Thanks, duly noted

The_Boy

re: Porte's comments, I thought he was a little unfair on Pinot who reacted to the initial attack before anyone bar Valverde, and sat on the front of a group for some time himself. I imagine he wasn't keen to help Porte out as he had already experienced first hand what was going to happen.

Dorset_Boy

Some of the rider comments seem to lay bare Frenchie's lie about Bertie being so popular amongst the peloton. As they were there, I'd suggest they knew he was taking big risks and he came a cropper.

As for his form - nothing like his doped up standards - only an imbecile can't see that.

Frenchie is clearly very upset but as an adult that does not excuse his continuing infantile behaviour - it really is pathetic to block those who don't agree with you and to be so utterly blind to any alternative view. It really is time to grow up Frenchie and stop acting like a spoilt 3 year old.

It's a shame Bertie is out, and it is probably season over for him, but a larger number of riders have something to aim for now, and Astana will potentially have a lot of work to do. Can sthe riders attack Nibali sufficiently, stronly enough and often enough to put him under pressure?

Anonymous

Who are the key names left in the Sky train? They've got 3 top 20 (I think!?) or at least 2 in top 15 which bodes well. Can they out-drill Astana?

salsiccia1

Is it safe to come in here yet?

inseine

frenchfighter wrote:

inseine wrote:

FF, there is no such thing as 150% in this context. I'm sorry but that just sounds stupid.

It is a turn of phrase you pedant.

It wasn’t meant to be pedantry, it’s just that saying 150% is hyperbole given that at the time you said Contador wasn’t going all out (pretty sure he later said he was).
It’s all just idle chatter ‘cos we’ll never know. I just don’t quite buy into the idea that Contador had loads in the tank while the others were on the limit.

smithy21

I would have thought that he was in reasonable shape from what we have seen this season and in the tour so far. I suspect we might have seen him get better as the weeks went on. We will never know if he would have been good enough to beat Nibali but I think it would have been close.

I do question why he would have been taking dangerous risks on a descent 100km from the finish. There is simply no reason to do that.

tailwindhome

So....do Sky stick or twist?