Tour de France Stage 5 Ypres-Arenberg *Spoiler*

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Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?
    Yes. We're also ignoring Wiggins's history of being awful in the rain and Porte being 8th on GC.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pb21
    pb21 Posts: 2,171
    Above The Cows wrote:
    I've never watched cycling for the 'hardmen'. For me it is a different type of sport.

    Cycling is one of the hardest hard man sports there is IMO, even the 10 mile TTs on dry days.
    Mañana
  • chrisday
    chrisday Posts: 300
    adr82 wrote:
    TMR wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    Overlord2 wrote:
    From the public's/PR point of view it makes not taking Wiggins look :oops:

    Not the best decision management made. :roll:

    Brad will be at home laughing all the way to the fridge. :lol:
    You can't talk as if they knew this was going to happen and decided not to bring Wiggins anyway FFS :roll:

    They should have taken him for such an eventuality. Poor of Brailsford.
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?

    When it suits the narrative, yes, it seems ;)
    @shraap | My Men 2016: G, Yogi, Cav, Boonen, Degenkolb, Martin, J-Rod, Kudus, Chaves
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Cancellera clearly not in great classics shape. Over a min back.
    Different formats. He doesn't do 4 days of top-level racing immediately before Paris–Roubaix. And presumably he's planning to be racing for another couple of weeks in this one, rather than gamble everything for stage 5.
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Le Commentateur wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    . And presumably he's planning to be racing for another couple of weeks in this one.

    Apparently not.
    _
  • powerbookboy
    powerbookboy Posts: 241
    adr82 wrote:
    Overlord2 wrote:
    From the public's/PR point of view it makes not taking Wiggins look :oops:

    Not the best decision management made. :roll:

    Brad will be at home laughing all the way to the fridge. :lol:
    You can't talk as if they knew this was going to happen and decided not to bring Wiggins anyway FFS :roll:

    Sky had the luxury of taking 2 proven Tour winners. No one else had the choice. Bearing in mind the route, it looked like a plan B was always going to be a likely requirement. History should have told them from Tour 2011 and Giro 2013 that plans fall apart. Porte you can argue is their plan B - whether he's as good a plan be as other alternatives, only time will tell...
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Le Commentateur wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Cancellera clearly not in great classics shape. Over a min back.
    Different formats. He doesn't do 4 days of top-level racing immediately before Paris–Roubaix. And presumably he's planning to be racing for another couple of weeks in this one, rather than gamble everything for stage 5.

    Ah, that's a bit easy. This was always a stage he was aiming at. The rest of the bunch have ridden 4 stages as well.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?

    As I said at the time, they are professionals and are paid to do a job. Get them in a room, crack their heads together and tell them to get on with it. At least if they had Wiggins they'd get a top 5 place in GC, without him they'll get nothing. If they manage to get a rider in top 10 now I will be impressed.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    The_Boy wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    Personally I don't particularly like watching people suffer excessively for our entertainment. I would have liked to have seen a full on battle between Contador and Froome. Maybe it's just me but I don't get the excessive need to get the testosterone flowing by enjoy such brutal things, that's not why I like cycling.

    It's why I don't like rugby or football or boxing. To me it isn't entertaining to watch people fall off and laugh about it. I've never watched cycling for the 'hardmen'. For me it is a different type of sport.

    If I'm honest this is one of the few times on this forum where I have really felt like I don't belong here, with the level of machoness on display. I haven't enjoyed it. I think we can all approach these things differently and that there is space for those differences to be appreciated. People going on gloating and being silly about other people's valid opinions is not what for me this place was about, there's the other place for that.

    I actually have a lot of sympathy with this position. The only disagreement I have is that I don't believe that stages like today's are actually any worse than a nervous, wet flat stage in the first week of a GT.

    Yes there were crashes, but apart from Froome they all made it back in one piece. And I reckon Chris' race was run yesterday, tbh.

    I think his wrist was a lot worse than he was letting on, a bit like Cuddles and his broken elbow.

    I think for me, its not that stages like this are worse than a wet stage, of course weather is part of the whole thing, its that it is designed to engender drama with other people's bodies, I think it's the 'design' part of it, that bothers me. The weather you can do nothing about, but this route was designed by someone who wanted to entertain us by hopefully making people crash. That is my problem.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    TMR wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?

    As I said at the time, they are professionals and are paid to do a job. Get them in a room, crack their heads together and tell them to get on with it. At least if they had Wiggins they'd get a top 5 place in GC, without him they'll get nothing. If they manage to get a rider in top 10 now I will be impressed.
    Would love to see you try that. If it was as simple as scolding them like a pair of toddlers I think the combined management expertise of Sky might have been able to handle it...
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    RichN95 wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?
    Yes. We're also ignoring Wiggins's history of being awful in the rain and Porte being 8th on GC.

    Except we aren't, because he's not. As other members have posted repeatedly in this very thread. Porte sucks - he won't stay 8th. He has had crap form recently and we've seen him struggle in this TdF already.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Peloton will be on a go slow tomorrow. I will support them for it.

    Now I need to see where Contador can make time on Nibali. In the Dauphine he gapped those guys for close on two mins so no reason why he cant do that multiple times.

    He is light as a feather and doesn't like to ride the cobbles. He also bonked hence the 30 sec or so time loss.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    frenchfighter wrote:
    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.

    I disagree. All aspects of rider skill and ability should be tested. Today was perfect.
  • Crampeur
    Crampeur Posts: 1,065
    "Don't blame the cobblestones: they're just stone."
    -Greg LeMond
  • ManOfKent
    ManOfKent Posts: 392
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.
    Why, because your man lost so much time? :twisted:
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.

    Really? FF, you got some Tour history homework to catch up on. :--)
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    TMR wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?
    Yes. We're also ignoring Wiggins's history of being awful in the rain and Porte being 8th on GC.

    Except we aren't, because he's not. As other members have posted repeatedly in this very thread. Porte sucks - he won't stay 8th. He has had crap form recently and we've seen him struggle in this TdF already.
    You mean when he crashed and then closed a big gap back to the peloton on the longest climb so far in the race? Definitely a sign of poor form. Not saying he's going to compete with Nibali or Contador for sure but I wouldn't write him off for a top 5 finish this early.
  • talius
    talius Posts: 282
    Greipel, Degenkolb, Chava etc all 19 mins back. Would have had them all for the front group at the beginning of the day.
    Merckx EMX 5
    Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur

    RIP - Scott Speedster S10
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,643
    Above The Cows wrote:
    The_Boy wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    Personally I don't particularly like watching people suffer excessively for our entertainment. I would have liked to have seen a full on battle between Contador and Froome. Maybe it's just me but I don't get the excessive need to get the testosterone flowing by enjoy such brutal things, that's not why I like cycling.

    It's why I don't like rugby or football or boxing. To me it isn't entertaining to watch people fall off and laugh about it. I've never watched cycling for the 'hardmen'. For me it is a different type of sport.

    If I'm honest this is one of the few times on this forum where I have really felt like I don't belong here, with the level of machoness on display. I haven't enjoyed it. I think we can all approach these things differently and that there is space for those differences to be appreciated. People going on gloating and being silly about other people's valid opinions is not what for me this place was about, there's the other place for that.

    I actually have a lot of sympathy with this position. The only disagreement I have is that I don't believe that stages like today's are actually any worse than a nervous, wet flat stage in the first week of a GT.

    Yes there were crashes, but apart from Froome they all made it back in one piece. And I reckon Chris' race was run yesterday, tbh.

    I think his wrist was a lot worse than he was letting on, a bit like Cuddles and his broken elbow.

    I think for me, its not that stages like this are worse than a wet stage, of course weather is part of the whole thing, its that it is designed to engender drama with other people's bodies, I think it's the 'design' part of it, that bothers me. The weather you can do nothing about, but this route was designed by someone who wanted to entertain us by hopefully making people crash. That is my problem.

    Forum testosterone aside (and I agree with you). Surely the cobbles aren't much different from a mega hard mountain stage with crazy descents... Alp d'Huez descent last year for example? Riders suffer and it's dangerous but that's what the sport is like and it's balanced by flat days like Monday... GC is about being the best all round rider...
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    Personally I don't particularly like watching people suffer excessively for our entertainment. I would have liked to have seen a full on battle between Contador and Froome. Maybe it's just me but I don't get the excessive need to get the testosterone flowing by enjoy such brutal things, that's not why I like cycling.

    It's why I don't like rugby or football or boxing. To me it isn't entertaining to watch people fall off and laugh about it. I've never watched cycling for the 'hardmen'. For me it is a different type of sport.

    If I'm honest this is one of the few times on this forum where I have really felt like I don't belong here, with the level of machoness on display. I haven't enjoyed it. I think we can all approach these things differently and that there is space for those differences to be appreciated. People going on gloating and being silly about other people's valid opinions is not what for me this place was about, there's the other place for that.

    Do you really believe that riders on mountain stages in the rain (or in the heat) are not suffering equally if not more so than the riders did today? I can guarantee that Lars Boom will have enjoyed today far more than he will enjoy the Alps. It's nothing to do with machismo, it is all about good racing. Nibali grasped the conditions and used them, others less so. Froome was unlucky and I'm disappointed for him but in reality I think his race was over yesterday and the cobbles played no part in his misfortune other than the risk of aggravating the pain had he reached them. You usually argue your case well but today you haven't been able to do so as the stage and its outcome worked against your point of view.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    edited July 2014
    adr82 wrote:
    TMR wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?

    As I said at the time, they are professionals and are paid to do a job. Get them in a room, crack their heads together and tell them to get on with it. At least if they had Wiggins they'd get a top 5 place in GC, without him they'll get nothing. If they manage to get a rider in top 10 now I will be impressed.
    Would love to see you try that. If it was as simple as scolding them like a pair of toddlers I think the combined management expertise of Sky might have been able to handle it...

    I used to do it all the time - still do on occasion. I don't tolerate primadonnas. If you're paid to do the job, then do the job. You don't need to like someone to work with them. And for the record, Brailsford's management style is crap. He is amazing at process, but crap at discipline based on the instances and sources that are publicly available.

    For the record I am NOT saying Brailsford is crap, before anyone else has a pop at me... :roll:
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    powerbookboy wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    Overlord2 wrote:
    From the public's/PR point of view it makes not taking Wiggins look :oops:

    Not the best decision management made. :roll:

    Brad will be at home laughing all the way to the fridge. :lol:
    You can't talk as if they knew this was going to happen and decided not to bring Wiggins anyway FFS :roll:

    Sky had the luxury of taking 2 proven Tour winners. No one else had the choice. Bearing in mind the route, it looked like a plan B was always going to be a likely requirement. History should have told them from Tour 2011 and Giro 2013 that plans fall apart. Porte you can argue is their plan B - whether he's as good a plan be as other alternatives, only time will tell...
    If they'd had Wiggins out there too today how would that have guaranteed a better result for them? He could just as easily have fallen off too! There were at least 3 other Sky riders who went down today (and that's just the ones I saw for myself).
  • germcevoy
    germcevoy Posts: 414
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.

    Why not?
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    edited July 2014
    Froome didn't abandon because of injury today did he.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    edited July 2014
    TMR wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    TMR wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So are we just ignoring the whole "Froome and Wiggins can't stand each other" thing then?

    As I said at the time, they are professionals and are paid to do a job. Get them in a room, crack their heads together and tell them to get on with it. At least if they had Wiggins they'd get a top 5 place in GC, without him they'll get nothing. If they manage to get a rider in top 10 now I will be impressed.
    Would love to see you try that. If it was as simple as scolding them like a pair of toddlers I think the combined management expertise of Sky might have been able to handle it...

    I used to do it all the time - still do on occasion. I don't tolerate primadonnas. If you're paid to do the job, then do the job. You don't need to like someone to work with them. And for the record, Brailsford's management style is crap. He is amazing at process, but crap at discipline based on the instances and sources that are publicly available.

    For the record I am NOT saying Brailsford is crap, before anyone else has a pop at me... :roll:
    Exactly what are you saying then...?
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    pb21 wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    I've never watched cycling for the 'hardmen'. For me it is a different type of sport.

    Cycling is one of the hardest hard man sports there is IMO, even the 10 mile TTs on dry days.

    I think it depends on how you define hardmen. I don't define it as testosterone fueled macho aggression and enjoyment of people falling off. That's what was on display a lot on here today.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    ManOfKent wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Epic. OK, now it has finished would AtC and DDRaver like to comment on whether the race would be better without this stage? It should make the mountains even better as well.

    It was fun but it deserves no space in a GT regardless.
    Why, because your man lost so much time? :twisted:

    Even if they all finished together I would say the same thing. In this instance the main issue is Froome, then Contador.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    what's the world record for most pages for a stage?
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,643
    adr82 wrote:
    If they'd had Wiggins out there too today how would that have guaranteed a better result for them? He could just as easily have fallen off too! There were at least 3 other Sky riders who went down today (and that's just the ones I saw for myself).

    Surely the lesson is that Sky can't ride in the rain, especially once they've won a GT :wink:

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