Froome on Wiggins and more

Turfle

They all know what 2012 was like. We don't.

I'd absolutely love Wiggo to be there, as I think his true intention is to help Froome and the team, but I think the potential gain is going to be outweighed by the potentially toxic atmosphere. I hope I'm wrong though.

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think Wiggins could be motivated to ride for Froome just to prove he's the better man, out of pure ego and vindictiveness. I think if it's played right then the two of them could end up falling over themselves to show they were the most Corinthian in spirit. Just idle speculation, obviously.

But would you risk it?

frenchfighter

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ambafruk/ ... 8849834136

above_the_cows

^The poor man really can't wear a suit can he?

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think Wiggins could be motivated to ride for Froome just to prove he's the better man, out of pure ego and vindictiveness. I think if it's played right then the two of them could end up falling over themselves to show they were the most Corinthian in spirit. Just idle speculation, obviously.

But would you risk it?

Well without having any inside info, yes.

The benefits in terms of publicity are enormous. And if you build the team round Froome, packed full of his loyal lieutenants, then there's very little risk that Wiggins could split the team, not without management approval. His potential for spreading discord would be hugely limited, and any malcontent on his part would just leave him isolated. If the worst came to the worst and the two of them went head to head on the road (massively unlikely) then the positive side is even more headline coverage. I'd say the real issue remaining is whether Cound could go along with it, she's got the potential to throw a massive spanner in the works if she goes off-message again.

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

^The poor man really can't wear a suit can he?

My coat hangers can pad a suit out better.

Richmond Racer

^We aint talking David Millar here, for sure


You know, for all this business about the pair of 'em being unhappy/surly with each other, Froome seething with unhappiness at not being made leader etc, before the 2012 Tour, even before la Toussaire happened, I'm reminded of this (35mins in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8GpyA6PJF8


Great acting, huh?

frenchfighter

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think Wiggins could be motivated to ride for Froome just to prove he's the better man, out of pure ego and vindictiveness. I think if it's played right then the two of them could end up falling over themselves to show they were the most Corinthian in spirit. Just idle speculation, obviously.

But would you risk it?

Well without having any inside info, yes.

The benefits in terms of publicity are enormous. And if you build the team round Froome, packed full of his loyal lieutenants, then there's very little risk that Wiggins could split the team, not without management approval. His potential for spreading discord would be hugely limited, and any malcontent on his part would just leave him isolated. If the worst came to the worst and the two of them went head to head on the road (massively unlikely) then the positive side is even more headline coverage. I'd say the real issue remaining is whether Cound could go along with it, she's got the potential to throw a massive spanner in the works if she goes off-message again.

But then you'd have the press just getting their collective knick knacks in a twist over the Froome/Wiggins Feud all the time. Still would make a change from doping innuendo I suppose.

Personally I wouldn't take him if his presence has the potential to sow discord.

spaceman147

iainf72 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

'tis true. And as per the Cycling Podcast, there's always the (quite feasible) scenario in which Wiggins finds himself ahead of Fenton by the end of stage 5, and then all hell breaks loose.

It's a funny one,innit. Coz if that happened, Froome would likely crush him in the mountains and then say "I could've done that any time I liked in 2012"

BTW - Nearly tweeted you last night while watching Penny Dreadful to say "good news, Fenton is chained up in a basement being beaten"

My first thoughts were this forum when I heard that too.

Richmond Racer

^Just to confirm that I have an alibi for last night, and many witnesses

above_the_cows

What on earth is everyone talking about? What is Penny Dreadful?

knedlicky

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think Wiggins could be motivated to ride for Froome just to prove he's the better man, out of pure ego and vindictiveness. I think if it's played right then the two of them could end up falling over themselves to show they were the most Corinthian in spirit.

I think that would be my guess too. Having two 'irons', even with a theoretical pecking order, is always a problem for other teams.

Additionally, from what Arvesen has said, I think Sky want Wiggins there for at least the UK stages, for the greater publicity he brings.

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think Wiggins could be motivated to ride for Froome just to prove he's the better man, out of pure ego and vindictiveness. I think if it's played right then the two of them could end up falling over themselves to show they were the most Corinthian in spirit. Just idle speculation, obviously.

But would you risk it?

Well without having any inside info, yes.

The benefits in terms of publicity are enormous. And if you build the team round Froome, packed full of his loyal lieutenants, then there's very little risk that Wiggins could split the team, not without management approval. His potential for spreading discord would be hugely limited, and any malcontent on his part would just leave him isolated. If the worst came to the worst and the two of them went head to head on the road (massively unlikely) then the positive side is even more headline coverage. I'd say the real issue remaining is whether Cound could go along with it, she's got the potential to throw a massive spanner in the works if she goes off-message again.

But then you'd have the press just getting their collective knick knacks in a twist over the Froome/Wiggins Feud all the time. Still would make a change from doping innuendo I suppose.

Personally I wouldn't take him if his presence has the potential to sow discord.

From a PR perspective, having two champions duking it out on the road, with a bit of bad blood between them, is the stuff of wet dreams. Especially if one of them goes on to win it. The amount of column inches would be enormous.... Controversy doesn't have to be a bad thing - we've just got a bit used to controversy = doping chat (because mostly it is). It's given controversy a bad name ;-)

above_the_cows

But what is more important, the publicity gained from controversy or winning the thing because that is the calculation I would be doing?

Macaloon

No tA Doctor wrote:

From a PR perspective, having two champions duking it out on the road, with a bit of bad blood between them, is the stuff of wet dreams. Especially if one of them goes on to win it. The amount of column inches would be enormous.... Controversy doesn't have to be a bad thing - we've just got a bit used to controversy = doping chat (because mostly it is). It's given controversy a bad name ;-)

Certainly sounds like the sort of challenge a management guru would tackle with imagination and relish.

Richmond Racer

Above The Cows wrote:

But what is more important, the publicity gained from controversy or winning the thing because that is the calculation I would be doing?

I'm hearing the above in Sean Kelly's voice :

iainf72

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

But what is more important, the publicity gained from controversy or winning the thing because that is the calculation I would be doing?

My calculation would be: in what situation would it be possible to see Wiggins and Froome going head to head?

The answer to that is pretty much only if Froome mucks it up on the cobbles and Wiggins destroys him in the TT. Wiggins would need a huge chunk of time - so much that it would already be unlikely that Froome was competitive against the other GC riders. The point where Wiggins thinks he's the better bet and can convince a few teammates of it is the point where Froome would need a miracle to come back anyway.

Scenario 1: All is rosy in the Garden of Sky. Outcome: Froome wins the TdF, with support from one of the biggest engines in the sport.
Scenario 2: Wiggins gains a huge chunk of time and challenges for leadership. Outcome: Froome was probably toast by then already.
Scenario 3: Wiggins is a right pain in the arse from the beginning and refuses to work. Outcome: Wiggins isolated, Froome's loyal Duracell bunnies go marching on to try and win. You're a rider down, but that could happen for any number of reasons.

Again, this is all premised on the idea that they're not actually going to be slicing each other up with the shards of a broken smoothie glass over the breakfast table...

I know a GT is different from any other sport, but there are plenty of instances of teammates that actively hate each other going on to achieve great things. From football: Sheringham and Cole at Man Utd formed one of the most devastating strike partnerships of their time, despite loathing each other.

dish_dash

iainf72 wrote:

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

Err, what was the trigger?

No_Ta_Doctor

dish_dash wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

Err, what was the trigger?

Can someone provide linkage to something that might explain any of this?

Richmond Racer

dish_dash wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

Err, what was the trigger?

Half of the team boozing all night in the hotel bar with the likes of Matt Stephens. Brad not one of said late night boozers, being soberly tucked up in bed. Gorgeous Bernie and Jez Hunt turning up at 8am the next morning, still half-cut. Brad goes ballistic.

But he was doubtless looking for an excuse.

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

But what is more important, the publicity gained from controversy or winning the thing because that is the calculation I would be doing?

My calculation would be: in what situation would it be possible to see Wiggins and Froome going head to head?

It's not about the racing, its about all the hours when there isn't the racing as to why I wouldn't take him. I just wouldn't include someone who has the potential to make the other 8 riders miserable. But then personally I'm never happy in situations where there is tension.

Richmond Racer wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

Err, what was the trigger?

Half of the team boozing all night in the hotel bar with the likes of Matt Stephens. Brad not one of said late night boozers, being soberly tucked up in bed. Gorgeous Bernie and Jez Hunt turning up at 8am the next morning, still half-cut. Brad goes ballistic.

But he was doubtless looking for an excuse.

I thought Bernie was Team Wiggins?

Richmond Racer

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

But what is more important, the publicity gained from controversy or winning the thing because that is the calculation I would be doing?

My calculation would be: in what situation would it be possible to see Wiggins and Froome going head to head?

It's not about the racing, its about all the hours when there isn't the racing as to why I wouldn't take him. I just wouldn't include someone who has the potential to make the other 8 riders miserable. But then personally I'm never happy in situations where there is tension.

Richmond Racer wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Fair amusing tweet from Velocast recently.

For those wondering what happened in the ToB bus, you can see the words on the mock up

Err, what was the trigger?

Half of the team boozing all night in the hotel bar with the likes of Matt Stephens. Brad not one of said late night boozers, being soberly tucked up in bed. Gorgeous Bernie and Jez Hunt turning up at 8am the next morning, still half-cut. Brad goes ballistic.

But he was doubtless looking for an excuse.

I thought Bernie was Team Wiggins?

Bernie is a god and thus all was forgiven afterwards

above_the_cows

Richmond Racer wrote:

Bernie is a god

FACT

UncleMonty

It will be a massive distraction for the whole team if Wiggo doesn't ride, the endless questions and column inches in the build up to the race, the same again in the pre and post race interviews. They might view this as a small sacrifice though compared to living with him for 3 weeks.

For what it's worth I think he'll work for Froome and just wants to be part of a winning team in what will probably be his last tour, I'd like to see him race but his past behaviour might catch up with him.

I've seen some reference that the Sky board / exec's might have something to say about this, do you its likely, and if they did would big Dave listen ?

ocdupalais

This idea that Wiggins is a source of team misery seems utterly at odds with what I've gleaned.
In the Wiggins documentary waaay back in 2012, I remember Porte commenting that he was closer to BW and that he felt he'd benefit more from riding for him than he would Froome. Around that time, the general comments - not just from Porte; also his own missus - were that Wiggins could be a tosser from time to time, but also brought much humour to the team. Pressure to perform as absolute team leader seems to be behind most of the famous situations for his bellendedness.
Obviously, much has happened since then: for example, Porte has clearly build a strong bond with Froome and formed a fierce double-act in competition. Porte now possibly thinks less of Wiggins, and has sided wholly with his new leader...who knows? But the events that keep getting referred to were nearly all in 2012 or before (and have been made into something way more significant than they actually were: did Wiggins lose because of Froome? No, on the contrary. Did Froome have something extra on the steeper climbs? Yes. Did Wiggins have something extra in the TTs? Yes...) - since then, except for them both waving their dirty grundies in public (to, er, clear the air?!) in respective books, I've only heard of reconciliatory moves (OK - I don't want to be naive here, but would Sky management have made no attempt to have cleared all this stuff up in the knowledge that Wiggins has stated he wants to ride the Tour - and in the service of Froome?).
Maybe the atmosphere really is as bad as the media is hoping (as they clamour to get their furtive little hands on any scrap of story that may fester nicely for them over the next month and develop into something more than gossip by July) - but the other thing that has changed is that Froome and Wiggins are 2 years older, both are GT champs (and then some), both have got an opportunity to redeem themselves for the silliness... And the crucial thing: the "only" pressure on Wiggins will be to perform on the road in a way that his talents are most suited - i.e. smashing the other GC contenders to the 4 winds on the cobbles and then lining it out on the sections of climbs that that everyone except Froome would rather he wouldn't.

The other thing that might happen is that Wiggins and Froome fall out, Sky crumbles and Contador wins by 2 mins. Wiggins moves to OGE. The 2015 Tour has 115km individual TT and a 45km TTT and sets it up nicely for a 3 way punch-up to settle things once and for all...*

*TJVG goes on to win by 45 secs...

mfin

I think the bulk of people on here are thinking about this a thousand times more than Froome and Wiggins are, it's pretty ridiculous.

Richmond Racer

UncleMonty wrote:

It will be a massive distraction for the whole team if Wiggo doesn't ride, the endless questions and column inches in the build up to the race, the same again in the pre and post race interviews. They might view this as a small sacrifice though compared to living with him for 3 weeks.

For what it's worth I think he'll work for Froome and just wants to be part of a winning team in what will probably be his last tour, I'd like to see him race but his past behaviour might catch up with him.

I've seen some reference that the Sky board / exec's might have something to say about this, do you its likely, and if they did would big Dave listen ?

Its an interesting question. From what I can make out, the Sky board have tended to leave Brailsford alone when it comes to decision-making. However, they were fuming over the JTL business last Sep...and the team havent been in exactly barn-storming form this season (which is one of the reasons why Wiggins is riding TdS - they think there's a more than decent chance of him and Froome winning TdS and Dauphine).

I guess its possible that they may interfere in the case of this particular decision - unless Brailsford convinces them outright that Wiggins would be such as huge risk to the success of a 3rd Tour win.

frenchfighter

Baldy flanked by locks and cocks in the background. It really is a tough decision for the team. They should just ask what the sponsor would prefer as after all they are a corporation first and sport team second.