Farage unravels on LBC.

Stevo_666

Not sure that the immigration issue is the only reason why people would vote UKIP. I doubt that Xenophobia alone would put them in the position they currently are in the polls.

The interference in UK affairs by Brussels and other downsides of being part of the European political 'project' are a legitimate set of concerns for many people in the UK. The fact that some parties just tug their forelocks and say 'yes' to whatever Brussels wants is not a good electoral strategy at the moment. It's hurting all of the three mainstream parties right now, but some more than others.

If the effect of UKIP is to put a bit of 'spine' into our approach to the EU and so improve on the deal we have, then in the end it may be a good thing.

ballysmate

Stevo, some potentially bad news for the Tories - the knives seem to be out for Millipede.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/poli ... 097882.ece

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not sure that the immigration issue is the only reason why people would vote UKIP. I doubt that Xenophobia alone would put them in the position they currently are in the polls.

.

For sure.

Still worth noting as well as the UKIPs are doing, they've still not got a single council in control

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not sure that the immigration issue is the only reason why people would vote UKIP. I doubt that Xenophobia alone would put them in the position they currently are in the polls.

.

For sure.

Still worth noting as well as the UKIPs are doing, they've still not got a single council in control

This is true, but look at the strides they are making and the percentage polls.

Looking across Europe doesn't instill comfort either.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... erate.html

greasedscotsman

Confused. Why would anyone vote UKIP for local council elections?

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not sure that the immigration issue is the only reason why people would vote UKIP. I doubt that Xenophobia alone would put them in the position they currently are in the polls.

.

For sure.

Still worth noting as well as the UKIPs are doing, they've still not got a single council in control

True, they are probably better off making a fuss in the European parliament where as I hinted above, Brussels needs to encounter a bit of resistance to its misguided political plans. I wouldn't want UKIP running my local council (or govening the country for that matter).

Are you still an advocate of proportional representation?

rick_chasey

Of course.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, some potentially bad news for the Tories - the knives seem to be out for Millipede.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/poli ... 097882.ece

Had to happen some time. Man of the people? Have a look at his face in this pic of him trying to be an 'ordinary bloke' and scoffing a bacon sandwich



Let's just hope Balls or Harman are poised to take over and the Scots do the right thing later this year.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Of course.

Which would of course mean UKIP getting more representation than they do now.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Of course.

Which would have course mean UKIP getting more representation than they do now.

Sure. And the greens and lib dems.

I suspect people would vote slightly differently if they knew it was PR an their votes count for more than they do now.

I don't like the UKIPs but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get fair representation.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Of course.

Which would have course mean UKIP getting more representation than they do now.

Sure. And the greens and lib dems.

I suspect people would vote slightly differently if they knew it was PR an their votes count for more than they do now.

I don't like the UKIPs but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get fair representation.

Fair enough - at least you're sticking to your principles.

pinno

sungod wrote:

bleagh, depressing indeed

voter apathy is dangerous, it leaves the door open for the fascist rabble rousers adept at stirring up their followers, an old and sadly effective technique

You are flattering them. I think it is by default than some sort of 'technique'.

MountainMonster

The one thing that really worries me is that now, after over 2 years being in the UK trying my hardest to get a decent job, and having to go down the self-employed route to begin my career, I may be forced out.

I'm on an EU Family visa here, so all of my work may have been for nothing if things drastically change. It causes a lot of concern for me that these groups are gaining control, because it can result in me being forced out of the country with no recourse, and having a career I worked my ass for being thrown down the drain for simply being American and being married to a European.

This is obviously a extreme scenario, but entirely possible given the current climate. Oh well, if I do get forced out I can always go back to Austria and cycle a lot more than I do now, and be around my family. Maybe wouldn't be so bad, but i'd be skinnt.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Of course.

Which would have course mean UKIP getting more representation than they do now.

Sure. And the greens and lib dems.

I suspect people would vote slightly differently if they knew it was PR an their votes count for more than they do now.

I don't like the UKIPs but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get fair representation.

Fair enough - at least you're sticking to your principles.

Sure. It's like Pim Fortuyn's party the LPF. They did well in one election. Then it became clear their members were incapable of good governance so they got hammered in the next election.

I reckon we'll see the same with the UKIPs. Only less dramatic cos it's not PR.

Pross

UKIP are ideal protest vote material but also as long as mainstream parties are scared to seriously discuss immigration and are able to do so without accusations of racism / xenophobia they will continue to thrive. Like it or not there are a lot of people for whom immigration is a concern and they aren't all 'right wing' many working class socialists worry about it as (rightly or wrongly) they feel more low skilled people coming into the country puts their job under threat. Pigeon holing anyone who expresses a concern at immigration as right-wing bigots helps nothing. Many of the fears people have are unfounded and in many cases there will be an element of bigotry but it needs open debate to help people understand that and policies for how infrastructure will grow to accommodate population growth from all sources (e.g. we cannot build houses fast enough to keep up with existing demand and there is very limited social housing availability).

Personally I think immigration is good for any country, we all benefit from diversity. However, it needs controls to ensure population growth is sustainable and other basics like those coming in to work should have at least basic English language skills (I think the same should apply for Brits going to other countries too) and that there should be no benefits paid to anyone coming in unless they are filling recognised skills gaps.

I can see myself voting Labour at the general election to keep UKIP out as I suspect they are more likely to overturn the Labour majority than the Tories or Lib Dems.

finchy

Anyone know a good site where you can see the % of votes for each party?

finchy

greasedscotsman wrote:

Confused. Why would anyone vote UKIP for local council elections?

So their town can pull out of the EU.

debeli

I started this thread and have been amused by reading it through.

It seems clear that whilst the execrable points that Farage made in the LBC interview would repel and revolt those already dubious of his motives, they would only draw closer those already attracted to his little-England bile-snivel.

I fear now (post elections of yesterday) that one or other of the major parties might turn anti-EU to stop the rot.

In the early 70s, the Labour Party tended to be anti-EEC and many in the Tories were pro. Things shift around and we now tend to see Toriedom as the natural home of the Eurosceptic (Bruges Group et al).

Nonetheless, both major parties (all three?) took their eye off the ball and the disease of UKIP is in part a symptom of that.

We get the politicians we deserve. I write this as a Liberal, which may make the point seem more absurd to the reader than it does to me.

An aside... At the polling station last night, there was a huge sheet full of candidates.... Lib, Lab, Con, Green and about eight or nine Xenophobic Scaremonger Parties, some of which I'd never heard of and some of which (BNP, UKIP) were familiar to me. My only hope as I put my tragic cross in the LibDem box was that the drooling Nazis would split one another's vote.....

I rather hope they did.

knedlicky

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not sure that the immigration issue is the only reason why people would vote UKIP. I doubt that Xenophobia alone would put them in the position they currently are in the polls.

The interference in UK affairs by Brussels and other downsides of being part of the European political 'project' are a legitimate set of concerns for many people in the UK.

Immigration might not be the only reason but I doubt many voters know or understand what the EU does, or what else Ukip stands for.

The idea of “The interference in UK affairs by Brussels” is only a ‘felt’ idea, not one which can be substantiated with valid arguments.

Only around 15% of laws and rules in the UK originate from the EU, and none have been to the detriment of ordinary UK citizens – unless one has something against regulations improving food hygiene, employment rights, air passenger rights, consumer rights, and animal welfare, or is against reductions in mobile telephone charges, reductions in pollution, and regulation of the financial sector (as examples).

knedlicky

I don’t know why the other political parties don’t counter Ukip by criticising some of the other ideas Ukip have, then Ukip might suddenly not be so popular.
In particular, the other parties could address the Ukip idea of a flat income tax rate of 31% for all earning over about £1000 per month, pointing out the increase in tax which the man-in-the-street would then have to pay – publicising that would soon get rid of most of their working class voters.

There’s also the Ukip ideas of: the simplification of the welfare system (simplification usually means elimination of some services and benefits), restrictions on foreign investment (bye-bye many jobs), an increase in military budget (when the public is leaning the other way), and the abandonment of all ideas to protect the environment (when most people have some concern even if often to do with just where they live). Not to mention the removal of some EU-introduced laws including those to do with employment protection and human rights and, in the future, the blocking of the EU tenants’ rights law (not yet law, currently being worked upon).

nathancom

What can you do when you have thick twunts like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27543012

Jez mon

knedlicky wrote:

I don’t know why the other political parties don’t counter Ukip by criticising some of the other ideas Ukip have, then Ukip might suddenly not be so popular.
In particular, the other parties could address the Ukip idea of a flat income tax rate of 31% for all earning over about £1000 per month, pointing out the increase in tax which the man-in-the-street would then have to pay – publicising that would soon get rid of most of their working class voters.

There’s also the Ukip ideas of: the simplification of the welfare system (simplification usually means elimination of some services and benefits), restrictions on foreign investment (bye-bye many jobs), an increase in military budget (when the public is leaning the other way), and the abandonment of all ideas to protect the environment (when most people have some concern even if often to do with just where they live). Not to mention the removal of some EU-introduced laws including those to do with employment protection and human rights and, in the future, the blocking of the EU tenants’ rights law (not yet law, currently being worked upon).

I guess they don't take them seriously, and they don't have to...in the grand scheme of things, where would a vote going like this out them in a general election, would they even win a single seat?

As for legislation imported from the EU, yes a lot of it is difficult to be upset about the majority of it makes sense and is reasonable. But isn't there a principle here?

pinno

@ Mountain monster - don't worry, we'll get a petition together: The Lycra writ; writ for a rat.

I don't know what the results of the Scottish European elections are yet. I noticed BNP and UKIP on the ballot paper.

For us in Bonnie Scotland (where Farage was very welcome), this will fuel the Independence debate. I want nothing to do with that muddle of buggers and voting (for some) Yes will be a way to distance ourselves from the choice of either:
The Bullingdon Brigade, Millibland, the wishy washy in between party, SS GB or Fuckip.

finchy

madasahattersley wrote:

nathancom wrote:

What can you do when you have thick twunts like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27543012

What a fantastically impartial representation of the typical UKIP voter. Aren't we so blessed to have such a wonderful national broadcasting corporation.

He's just making the same argument as lots of other UKIP voters, but he's doing it in a Midlands accent. And it's not as if he's the only UKIP voter the BBC has interviewed.

michael_roadie

I voted UKIP. Not only because I agree with the main points they stand for (getting out of the EU and controlling immigration), but also because I hate what Labour stands for (socialism and big government), and the Conservatives are anything but, as they flip flop to whatever change in policy it is they think will win them votes. At least UKIP stand for something, and if you agree with them you can vote for them... the Conservatives seem to be just about retaining power, and will modify their policies as the wind blows.

It's also getting a bit tiring having UKIP constantly labelled as racist. Which of their policies are racist again?

finchy

michael_roadie wrote:

Which of their policies are racist again?

It's more the alliances that they have formed and the things that its leadership have said. If you don't want to be called a racist party, don't enter into alliances with the likes of Lega Nord and the SNS. Quite simple, really.

pinno

michael_roadie wrote:

I voted UKIP. Not only because I agree with the main points they stand for (getting out of the EU and controlling immigration), but also because I hate what Labour stands for (socialism and big government), and the Conservatives are anything but, as they flip flop to whatever change in policy it is they think will win them votes. At least UKIP stand for something, and if you agree with them you can vote for them... the Conservatives seem to be just about retaining power, and will modify their policies as the wind blows.

It's also getting a bit tiring having UKIP constantly labelled as racist. Which of their policies are racist again?

Why get out of the EU?

nathancom

pinarello001 wrote:

michael_roadie wrote:

I voted UKIP. Not only because I agree with the main points they stand for (getting out of the EU and controlling immigration), but also because I hate what Labour stands for (socialism and big government), and the Conservatives are anything but, as they flip flop to whatever change in policy it is they think will win them votes. At least UKIP stand for something, and if you agree with them you can vote for them... the Conservatives seem to be just about retaining power, and will modify their policies as the wind blows.

It's also getting a bit tiring having UKIP constantly labelled as racist. Which of their policies are racist again?

Why get out of the EU?

Because unsubstantiated hatred of anything foreign is trendy - stop making us have a reason for our hatred, ok?

pinno

nathancom wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

michael_roadie wrote:

I voted UKIP...blah blah blah... racist again?

Why get out of the EU?

Because unsubstantiated hatred of anything foreign is trendy - stop making us have a reason for our hatred, ok?

No. I think this attitude has been simmering under the surface for years and now they have a voice unfortunately.

I'll go back to this:

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

verylonglegs

pinarello001 wrote:

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

I think Ryanair and Easyjet have debunked that statement, plenty of folk now expect to have cheap holidays in the sun whilst still having the right to decry all things foreign.