Can't stay with the pack - why?
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W&G - I hear where you're coming from. I did my first road race (as opposed to circuit race) for 2 years last month and was amazed to avoid getting dropped despite being on the verge of it for the whole of the last 15 miles. The last mile or so was mostly uphill and the bunch split to pieces as the strongest surged away for the line. My legs were seizing up and I probably finished up to a minute behind the winner in the end, but I made sure I came past 5 or 6 people on my way to the line and me and another guy had our own personal sprint for 43rd (or whatever it was). No safety issues there - just dignity issues!0
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fcukwit wrote:Got to agree - sprinting on the flat for any place outside the points is a waste of time and often can cause accidents.
One man's waste of time is another man's career best performance. I can see why a regular points scorer wouldn't bother sprinting for 30th place, though.fcukwit wrote:On the flat, outside the points...get off the front...
Getting to the front itself would represent a major achievement for me!0 -
gattocattivo wrote:...I made sure I came past 5 or 6 people on my way to the line and me and another guy had our own personal sprint for 43rd (or whatever it was).
Glad to hear this. I thought I'd stumbled on a basket-weaving convention with all this talk of not scrapping for every place (*) available!
I hope you won your particular sprint!
(*) Safely of course.0 -
I would rather come last having been blown out the back door than finish 1 place below the points cut off. Absolutely no point sprinting for 11th for me, you are passing people who aren't trying and risk ending your season in the process. Literally pointless.0
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mulletmaster wrote:I would rather come last having been blown out the back door than finish 1 place below the points cut off.
Each to their own, but this sounds very strange to me. You're welcome to finish last in one of my races though, leaving a "pointless" place to me!
I would have more sympathy if you said you'd prefer to come last having tried a breakaway against a load of superior sprinters rather than staying with the pack and getting outsprinted to finish just outside the points.0 -
The people who claim 20th place in a 3/4 midweek crit are probably the same ones who go around claiming to have 'won' the local sportive.
Unless you are in the points, your placing is irrelevant. "I finished in the bunch" used to be the reply when explaining that you were outside the points - that's all you had to say. These days, "I finished 23rd" (or insert irrelevant minor placing of your choice) seems to have replaced it.0 -
That is what I meant. The people I see sprinting for non points places are the ones with peaked helmets poorly fitted numbers and big bellies. They are also very welcome so long as they don't knock me off during their "sprint"Wallace and Gromit wrote:mulletmaster wrote:I would rather come last having been blown out the back door than finish 1 place below the points cut off.
Each to their own, but this sounds very strange to me. You're welcome to finish last in one of my races though, leaving a "pointless" place to me!
I would have more sympathy if you said you'd prefer to come last having tried a breakaway against a load of superior sprinters rather than staying with the pack and getting outsprinted to finish just outside the points.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:fcukwit wrote:Got to agree - sprinting on the flat for any place outside the points is a waste of time and often can cause accidents.
One man's waste of time is another man's career best performance. I can see why a regular points scorer wouldn't bother sprinting for 30th place, though.
I can understand that, but why if you have this effort in you, don't you use it 30 seconds earlier to put yourself in a better position, sure you'll then be knackered (although you might find you're not quite as knackered as you thought with the extra motivation of the better position) but you never know what might happen behind you. If you hang around in 40th position, you might sprint for 30th, if you get into 10th position earlier on, then you might fade to 15th, or you might stay 10th?
If you have energy, use it when it can still help you get a result!Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
mulletmaster wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:mulletmaster wrote:I would rather come last having been blown out the back door than finish 1 place below the points cut off.
Each to their own, but this sounds very strange to me. You're welcome to finish last in one of my races though, leaving a "pointless" place to me!
I would have more sympathy if you said you'd prefer to come last having tried a breakaway against a load of superior sprinters rather than staying with the pack and getting outsprinted to finish just outside the points.
That is what I meant.
That makes sound sense. If you know you're likely to get outsprinted then trying something high risk is certainly worth a punt.0 -
jibberjim wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:fcukwit wrote:Got to agree - sprinting on the flat for any place outside the points is a waste of time and often can cause accidents.
One man's waste of time is another man's career best performance. I can see why a regular points scorer wouldn't bother sprinting for 30th place, though.
I can understand that, but why if you have this effort in you, don't you use it 30 seconds earlier to put yourself in a better position, sure you'll then be knackered (although you might find you're not quite as knackered as you thought with the extra motivation of the better position) but you never know what might happen behind you. If you hang around in 40th position, you might sprint for 30th, if you get into 10th position earlier on, then you might fade to 15th, or you might stay 10th?
If you have energy, use it when it can still help you get a result!
This is excellent advice, thanks, and indeed it is what I try and do. To be honest though, even on a flat course, in the last couple of km of a 50km+ Cat 3/4 race I'm usually deep into the red zone - and often out of the other side into the purple zone - just to keep with the bunch, particularly sprinting out of corners. So when we get to the final sprint, I'm not unleashing a large amount of conserved energy, I'm just eeking out the last couple of teaspoons of energy in a short "sprint" (more likely just trying to minimise the amount I'm slowing down).
I have worked myself reasonably close to the front in previous races, but it takes so much effort that I need a short breather to recover, in which time I generally drift back to the final third of the bunch!
In my Cat 4 only race last year, it was a crucial mile an hour slower, so I was able to stay in the front third all the way round (I even led briefly at one point) and get stuck into the business end of the sprint for points.
Hope springs eternal, though, and next time the Cycling Gods will be on my side. Or maybe it will be the time after that...0 -
Last night was an occasion when I sat up and didn't contest the sprint, but only because two guys directly in front seemed to be trying to wrestle each other off their bikes on the run-in. In most races you get a pretty clear idea what the sprint's going to be like before you get there. If you think it's going to be sketchy then you can get out through the front or the back but you don't have to hang around if you don't want to. On that basis everyone is a willing participant and it's fair to sprint. If nothing else, the practice might help on those occasions when you manage your race better and are in the hunt at the end.0
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Imposter wrote:The people who claim 20th place in a 3/4 midweek crit are probably the same ones who go around claiming to have 'won' the local sportive.
Unless you are in the points, your placing is irrelevant. "I finished in the bunch" used to be the reply when explaining that you were outside the points - that's all you had to say. These days, "I finished 23rd" (or insert irrelevant minor placing of your choice) seems to have replaced it.
Er... I'm quite chuffed to claim my 17th (overall - a little bit better in age cat) in Sunday's LVRC race...it was feckin well hard earned..0 -
JGSI wrote:Imposter wrote:The people who claim 20th place in a 3/4 midweek crit are probably the same ones who go around claiming to have 'won' the local sportive.
Unless you are in the points, your placing is irrelevant. "I finished in the bunch" used to be the reply when explaining that you were outside the points - that's all you had to say. These days, "I finished 23rd" (or insert irrelevant minor placing of your choice) seems to have replaced it.
Er... I'm quite chuffed to claim my 17th (overall - a little bit better in age cat) in Sunday's LVRC race...it was feckin well hard earned..
ok, but LVRC usually has 'races within races' - in which case, competing for lower places may be worthwhile. Besides, you tend not to find too many choppers in LVRC...
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W&G - If you can try to keep very near the front in your next race at all times, you will be amazed at the amount of energy you save in relation to trying to get from the back to the front of the bunch all the time. You may have to be spot on with cornering technique etc in order to do this, but once you are in the front portion of the bunch and can stay there, the constant elastic band syndrome and going into the red time and time again is eliminated.
I am not saying it is easy to stay near the front the whole race, as hills etc will be a natural selector, but it really does pay dividends in the long run.
Failing that, do what someone else mentioned, go like hell for a dig off the front when/if the bunch has a breather and get into TT mode, have a look around to see if you are being chased, if not, head down and go til you blow. You never know, and after all, that is the beauty of racing. And if you come last, at least there is a good excuse......(It is the one I use anyway!)
I don't think it is necessarily an issue of not being able to stay with the bunch, probably more an issue of positioning and racing smart / energy preservation.0 -
fcukwit wrote:W&G - If you can try to keep very near the front in your next race at all times, you will be amazed at the amount of energy you save in relation to trying to get from the back to the front of the bunch all the time.
And if you come last, at least there is a good excuse......(It is the one I use anyway!)
Wise words indeed. Particularly the bit in bold. One can never have too many excuses.
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Hello OP here.
I just returned to say thanks for all the advice really. Tonight I've performed my 2nd FTP test on the same equipment since taking much of the advice in here. I won't post my numbers but after two training cycles I'm well over 20% more than the op number.
Whats better, is that I'm now riding 100k and 100m rides strongly (last one was the Chiltern 100 in 6.30, top 300 of 2000 riders - I'm not a climber fit the rouleur profile mostly so this was good for me), happily sitting on the front and doing +20mph turns for 10-15 and rolling off... and repeat, and I've learned some climbing drills as well which has really helped.
I'm happy as I'm starting to feel as though I'm contributing to the rides I'm on rather than just sitting in. So all good stuff, thanks very much, might see some of you at the ridelondon100 which I'm going to ride in 5h.30 or less*
*see the conviction there?
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None of that relates to being able to stay with the pack in a crit though, which is the topic of the thread
Has anything changed there?0 -
I'd only managed two crits immediately after the op and then moved onto an MTB series. I never made it to Hillingdon because of my work situation (I travel about the UK a lot with an ever changing diary).
However I did in those two - the first at Hog Hill manage to hang on to the for 1/3 to 1/2 of the race before being ejected from the pack on the Hoggenburg.
The second was a cyclopark where I had a really good race. At the start the chap in front of me fell out of his pedals on the hooter, the subsequent delay meaning I had to sprint to catch the bunch about 3/4 of the way around. After about 20 mins the bunch split in two and I was in the second group - there was a strong wind against us up the hill so Bridging was difficult. I remained in the second group and with 3 to go was lapped by the lead rider with 100yrd to the line and therefore pulled off by the comms otherwise I would have been in the `top 30 (of 100) with 2 to go.
A much better performance, I used my brain after the content of this thread was digested, kept in a group, sat in up the hill into the wind, did some turns as we helped each other and actually enjoyed myself knowing this was a much better performance.
My training is about raising FTP & riding distance in prep for the ridelondon100 now but I'll do some end of season crits mid- july to Sept to see how my new found fitness / power helps me and will report back then.
I'm pretty sure I could summarise now though - that this year has been a good learning curve about how to use my time, strategy & tactics and next year should be an opportunity for me to aim to hold onto the pack and perhaps more by this time next year given some good winter base training.
At the beginning of this thread I just wasn't fit or knowledgeable enough for what I wanted.0
