Can't stay with the pack - why?

Kryton57
Kryton57 Posts: 95
edited June 2014 in Amateur race
Just started racing at Cat 4 - I'm 3 races done. The problem is I can't stay with the pack for more than two laps. I'm mid forties, 15years mtb and 3 road with the last 18 months riding with a good club. I'm fine on the club rides except when there's a high pace on the drags when I can't keep up. I can ride solo 50 to 100ks at 27-31kph no problem. Currently I'm training intervals with TrainerRoad with 3 clear days pre-crit to rest. I'd consider myself fit, 6ft, 12stone but seemingly lacking power in my legs. My last this weekend 3/4 averaged 30 kph, the race itself averaged 36kph for the winners. I'm trying not to be despondent. FTP though is only 2.8 per kg.

So, what's wrong/what can I do?
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Comments

  • gattocattivo
    gattocattivo Posts: 500
    What kind of circuit is it (hilly / flat / technical)? Where do you find yourself losing ground (uphill / round corners / when it surges)? How wasted do you feel once you've lost contact (totally spent / plenty left in the tank, just couldn't keep up)?
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    It's Hog Hill. I'm not a climber so do lose on the hill, but the main issue us that I can't keep up anywhere on the circuit when it surges. I am able to take corners faster than some others, and I can complete the hour, catching a few as they drop off. Not where I want to be of course...

    Those first two laps is red line though, about 3bpm over my calculated max hr.
  • ongej
    ongej Posts: 118
    Well done for taking part! :) FWIW, it took me a number of races (2-4) before I could keep up with the bunch. I guess the question is does your race have corners or sharp-but-short uphill stretches? Also, where are you in the pack? Front, middle or back? It might be those that are killing your race, as it was for me. Also, technique can save lots of energy too...

    In my first few races, I wasn't prepared for the very frequent short-but-sharp sprints out of every corner. I tried training intervals using TrainerRoad, but to be honest, I could never motivate myself to do the intervals as high a power as those in races and as frequent. But in a race, its either do or drop.. so after a few races, my body adapted. But also, technique is important, the first few races, I braked before *every* corner, and had to sprint really hard to keep up riders free-wheeling past corners... With correct technique, it the sprint out of corners was much easier and lower power, but with the same resulting speed.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that crit-style racing is all about lots of short high-power sprints, then lots of coasting, and surprisingly little steady power... so recovery from sprints is very important.

    Also, staying at the back of the pack is not good unless you like to sprint all the time...
  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    With a 2.8 w/kg FTP you're going to struggle at hog hill to spend enough time with the bunch to get the experience of bunch survival, get to one of the flatter circuits, even with the experience, I suspect you may struggle. You really need to get fitter for that. Get over to Hillingdon, or Milton Keynes, less technical circuits, you'll have a chance to gain some experience.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • gattocattivo
    gattocattivo Posts: 500
    Kryton57 wrote:
    It's Hog Hill.

    Have you raced there the last two Saturdays in the Eagle 3rds/4ths race? If so, take it from me - the opening laps have been f***ing brutal, no shame in getting dropped (I did, and I've raced there loads of times). The first two laps were 25mph yesterday, which is really going some on that circuit. By contrast, I've been in 4th cat only races at Hillingdon and Dunton where the whole race has been at that speed, but doesn't feel anything like as difficult and 90% of the bunch stays intact.
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    I was yesterday, not the week before. Windy yesterday wasn't it? In my first 4ths at HH I was able to make a lot of time up the hill at the back then down the slope and through the bends at the bottom. Not so yesterday - solo up that hill was hard.

    I'm glad the hear it was a hard pace, makes me feel better. I stayed in on those but lost the pack at the bottom before the climb on the 3rd Lap.
  • gattocattivo
    gattocattivo Posts: 500
    Find yourself here:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/irl2010/s ... 3121827754
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Kryton57 wrote:
    Those first two laps is red line though, about 3bpm over my calculated max hr.

    To put it simply - you are not training hard enough. If you have been measuring your efforts against an HR number which is evidently inaccurate then this will not be helping.

    Also, giving yourself three rest days before a race just means that you are losing out on at least two days worth of training per week. You really shouldn't need that much rest.
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    gattocattivo wrote:
    Find yourself here:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/irl2010/s ... 3121827754

    Erm, I'm assuming your not giving out those for free? I've found me, and I'd like a copy. Do you have a website?
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    Imposter wrote:
    Kryton57 wrote:
    Those first two laps is red line though, about 3bpm over my calculated max hr.

    To put it simply - you are not training hard enough. If you have been measuring your efforts against an HR number which is evidently inaccurate then this will not be helping.

    Also, giving yourself three rest days before a race just means that you are losing out on at least two days worth of training per week. You really shouldn't need that much rest.

    I'm using virtual power with TR. I am over the guidelines of the intervals - about 5% on average - and have been sick felling at times, and usually come off the Turbo wobbly legged. Point taken about the rest.
  • simonparker
    simonparker Posts: 7
    I'm a 3rd and I got dropped after 15 minutes in the race on the 22nd. Tough race. My FTP is north of 3.5 w/kg (70kgs) and I can sprint well enough (1375 peak 825 30 sec) so don't worry about it. I got dropped by being to far back and stuck behind multiple splits so I guess the answer is to stay close to the front. Obviously this is easier said than done with the large pack.

    What are you using to measure your power though, even on the flattest and least interrupted route a 20mph solo ride is gonna take me around 200w so if you can do that for 3 hours easy you're FTP should be above 210w.
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    Just TR's virtual power. Admittedly I performed it's 8 min test in a hangover, AND it was my first effort ever on a focussed interval on a turbo. Watts was recorded as 183, I suspect you are right, in reality outdoors it's higher.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Kryton57 wrote:

    I'm using virtual power with TR. I am over the guidelines of the intervals - about 5% on average - and have been sick felling at times, and usually come off the Turbo wobbly legged. Point taken about the rest.

    I would ignore the TR virtual power stuff for now and just go out and train yourself to tolerate for longer the kinds of effort levels you have been experiencing when racing - 20sec, 1min and 3min intervals at the highest level you can sustain for the duration of the interval. Then repeat.
  • gattocattivo
    gattocattivo Posts: 500
    Kryton57 wrote:
    gattocattivo wrote:
    Find yourself here:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/irl2010/s ... 3121827754

    Erm, I'm assuming your not giving out those for free? I've found me, and I'd like a copy. Do you have a website?

    I didn't take them (I was in the race!). You can contact the guy who took them through flickr, but if you just want to download one for personal use I don't think that's an issue. If it's for more commercial purposes or going on a website then you'll need permission, I think.
  • simonparker
    simonparker Posts: 7
    TR power is great for intervals, if you have a turbo that's consistent, but I wouldn't use the absolute values to compare to other peoples power meter data.
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    simonparker wrote:
    TR power is great for intervals, if you have a turbo that's consistent, but I wouldn't use the absolute values to compare to other peoples power meter data.

    I am only using it for myself to gain my FTP for my setup. TR has my trainer in its list so I used that.
  • simonparker
    simonparker Posts: 7
    Yeah it's great for that, it was just that someone replied that you're FTP wasn't high enough to stand a chance of sticking with the pack in a race at Hog Hill.

    Bear in mind things like tyre pressure and how hard you tighten down the turbo will affect it's resistance so even if TR has the power curve for your turbo it's still unlikely to correlate to actual power but it will give you the repeatable efforts you need for you interval training.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,732
    From the OPs post I'd say he just isn't fit enough. There is nothing there that suggests he has the basic speed to race. The ftp is poor (if possibly inaccurate), the training speeds are nothing to write home about and not many racers get dropped on a drag on a club training ride unless you mean fast chaingangs with a sprinkling of higher cats.

    What to do?
    Dpends what you do now. I'd get off the trainer and do more fast group rides. Stop tapering for a crit, a day off is enough and even then not always necessary - train more and with better riders. Do more hours and more miles. Forget about short intervals for now, you are trying to ice a cake you haven't baked yet by doing them.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Forget about short intervals for now, you are trying to ice a cake you haven't baked yet by doing them.

    Not sure about this. He's getting dropped because he can't ride fast enough - not because he hasn't done enough base work...
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,732
    I'm just picking up hints from what he says - talks about trainer road, max hr, cat4 instead of 4th cat, 3 days rest for a crit etc - sounds like someone that hasn't done enough training and hasn't done enough with people who race.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I'm just picking up hints from what he says - talks about trainer road, max hr, cat4 instead of 4th cat, 3 days rest for a crit etc - sounds like someone that hasn't done enough training and hasn't done enough with people who race.

    Definitely.
  • TakeTurns
    TakeTurns Posts: 1,075
    The course isn't suited for your build. That height/weight combo won't result in a good w/kg - where it matters a lot when kicking up that incline.

    Go to a flat course, gain experience, fitness and train harder. We all start somewhere and now's the time you decide whether you get back up and keep moving forward.
  • Kryton57
    Kryton57 Posts: 95
    Thanks all.

    I'm happy to accept I'm not fit enough, my instinct does feel that way. I'm though time limited - I'm a professional worker with a 2.4 family. I'm currently squeezing things in to about 6-7hrs per week. This may go up with the lighter evenings though.

    It's probably worth pointing out that I place ok in mtb endurance events though, without any real training I've placed top 5 in regional amateur 50-80k races, and top 30 in national (Gorrick Enduros) in the past. I was also 6th fastest in an 82mile Chilterns Sportive on the road a whole back riding solo - I appreciate that is not a race but there were several clubs talking of "smashing it" in the car park on that one, with 4-5 riders each.

    It could just be I lack the explosive power for short form racing.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Kryton57 wrote:
    Thanks all.

    I'm happy to accept I'm not fit enough, my instinct does feel that way. I'm though time limited - I'm a professional worker with a 2.4 family. I'm currently squeezing things in to about 6-7hrs per week. This may go up with the lighter evenings though.

    7hrs per week should be more than sufficient to compete in 4th cat circuits, regardless of the course profile. You just need to spend the time more wisely.
    Kryton57 wrote:
    It's probably worth pointing out that I place ok in mtb endurance events though, without any real training I've placed top 5 in regional amateur 50-80k races, and top 30 in national (Gorrick Enduros) in the past. I was also 6th fastest in an 82mile Chilterns Sportive on the road a whole back riding solo - I appreciate that is not a race but there were several clubs talking of "smashing it" in the car park on that one, with 4-5 riders each.

    You should have told the other riders that at the start of the race - I'm sure they would have waited for you if they'd known.. ;) Seriously, though - that means absolutely nothing in road racing - as you have discovered.
    Kryton57 wrote:
    It could just be I lack the explosive power for short form racing.

    If you are going into the red and getting dropped (as you have already said), then that is not 'explosive' power which is lacking. What you seem to lack is a sufficient level of sustainable power - and a threshold which is currently not quite high enough. A lot of club chaingangs are picking up at the moment, now that the clocks have changed - see if you can find a local one. That would be a good way of giving your fitness a kick up the ar5e in a relatively short time...
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,067
    It's a brutal old business is bike racing, even on the flat at 4th Cat / Cat 4 / entry level. I rowed for many years and experienced a large amount of pain and suffering in the pursuit of aquatic domination, but nothing compares to trying to outlive your natural place in the Darwinian selection process of a bike race. Particularly when like me, you start in your mid 40s and aren't particularly good to start with!

    I'm curious as to why resting prior to a race is suggested as a bad idea. It takes a couple of days at least to recover from and adapt to a hard training effort, so if you train hard close to a race, you'll compromise performance on the day, I'd have thought. If you need all your planets aligned to keep up, then worrying about missing training is surely a secondary consideration to maximising performance on the day. If you're worring about missing too much training as a result then you just have to target a smaller number of races.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    I'm curious as to why resting prior to a race is suggested as a bad idea. It takes a couple of days at least to recover from and adapt to a hard training effort, so if you train hard close to a race, you'll compromise performance on the day, I'd have thought. If you need all your planets aligned to keep up, then worrying about missing training is surely a secondary consideration to maximising performance on the day. If you're worring about missing too much training as a result then you just have to target a smaller number of races.

    You certainly don't need three days rest prior to a 1hr circuit race! And if you are taking a couple of days to recover from training efforts, then something isn't right. I don't think anyone is suggesting going out for a three-hour battering the day before, but training hard on a Friday with a race on Sunday should not be an issue for anyone with a good level of fitness.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,067
    Imposter wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    You certainly don't need three days rest prior to a 1hr circuit race! And if you are taking a couple of days to recover from training efforts, then something isn't right.

    Interesting. Maybe I'm a wimp, but if I train hard Weds and Thurs I still struggle to walk up stairs on a Saturday and usually struggle badly on our lively club runs. On the one occasion I trained hard on a Friday prior to a Saturday club run I barely made it past half way before getting dropped on a railway bridge. Normally I survive club runs until the final uphill sprint without much bother.

    I recall the astonishment that greeted Graeme Obree breaking the hour record the day after he'd had a marginal fail. If a full time athlete in his mid 20s astonishes the world by maximising performance over an hour the day after a full on effort, then why would a part time athlete in his 40s be expected to perform well shortly after a hard session?

    Maybe you should try resting up properly for a key race... ;)
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,732
    What training are you doing that you can't walk! I could do a 1 hour circuit race back to back at a weekend and not suffer on the Sunday for the race on a Saturday. I wouldn't do a tough road race one day and expect to go as well the next - but even then when you actually ride a two day I don't think there is much drop off in performance on the second day - it's marginal.

    Re. obree - we are talking a world record where seconds xould make the difference over a full hour - and he still got the record - he actually went better after a hard effort the previous day!
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    Maybe you should try resting up properly for a key race... ;)

    There's an old saying - the more you train, the more you CAN train. Give it a try.. ;)
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,067
    Imposter wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    Maybe you should try resting up properly for a key race... ;)

    There's an old saying - the more you train, the more you CAN train. Give it a try.. ;)

    I'm not sure this old saying is appropriate for this old dog of a racer! There's a time for the turbo and a time for the pipe and slippers at my age. :D

    However, as Saturday's race when fully rested was conspicuously unsuccesful, I shall try the "training through" approach next time out. Unless I spontaneously combust or don't have the strength to make it off the start line, this can't make things any worse!

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