Can't stay with the pack - why?

OverTheHillAt21

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Age certainly does me no favours, being nearer 50 than 40. I did a lot of running in my 20s to support rowing training and the comparison of top speed and accelation compared to my running now is dismal to contemplate, even though my endurance has held up quite well.

Ditto, I used to race middle distance track in my twenties and my 400/800m speed decrease since then (now 51) is shocking (eg 400m 55s down to over 90s). I would only contemplate TTs now, there is no way I could recapture the rapid changes of pace needed to do bike road races. I don't want to discourage the OP from road racing but I'd at least be curious to know if he has tried any TTs? Especially after doing what he considered to be a good performance in the sportive - a performance of a quite different kind to road racing being much more of a sustained steady fast(-ish) pace.

DeVlaeminck

Well I'm 46 this month so I know where you are coming from, you do lose some of the snap and acceleration, but I don't think the OP should assume he's too old. He's already said himself that LVRC was harder than the 4th cat stuff so age doesn't have to be a barrier to racing. I do think though that if you do lose that snap then circuit racing is probably going to find it out more than open road.

I would still look at training differently. There was a general trend of people agreeing he is relying too much on turbo intervals - ok he hasn't actually detailed his training so that might be off the mark but given he has some sporting history (so he can't be a complete non responder) he should be able to compete in 4th cat races - imo the standard required to finish in the bunch isn't high - getting off the front maybe and getting placings requires nerve, skill and a bit of a sprint - but there is no way finishing an4th cat race is beyond 90% of 50 year olds doing 6 hours a week if they train right.

maryka

Kryton57 wrote:

Birdthom wrote:

Fair enough. I'm in the same boat as you on that front - 3 young kids and a fairly demanding work life. I'm not complaining that I don't have enough time to train though ;-)

Neither am I. I presented a picture for people's understanding, I'm complaining about not be able to keep up with a cat 4 bunch.

Not sure if you're listening to what people are saying here, but the majority are advising that you're trying to ice a cake that hasn't been baked by doing these high intensity short intervals. You should replace those sessions with some 2x20s instead, do that for a month, then race again. The reason you can't hold on when the pace goes into your redline is your redline isn't high enough. Raise your threshold and suddenly surges at 150% of threshold aren't as hard. These sessions can be done on a turbo, though 3x 2x20s a week is pretty boring. If you can substitute a weeknight 60-90 min chaingang in there for one of them, that would be good too.

Alternatively, you may need to accept that your lifestyle with work/kids doesn't allow for racing successfully right now. I only race when I'm fit enough to enjoy it (for women's racing and for me, that means at least being in the front pack at local races, or in the main bunch at national races) and I took a long time off from racing after I had my daughter because I just couldn't get enough riding in to be competitive. In your case, being competitive is being in the pack in a 4th cat race, but the idea is the same.

To give you an example, I need a CTL (chronic training load, or what you average per day) of at least 60-70 to race comfortably, 80+ to be getting results. 75 CTL is 525 TSS points a week, where 100 points is one hour ridden as hard as you can go for an hour (your FTP). So that means I need to ride each and every day of the week about 45min at max FTP, or 75min at around 80% max, or 90min at 70%. Every day. If I'm not doing at least 500 TSS a week I don't bother racing because I'm just not fit enough.

What's your CTL do you think? About 45-50 based on the info you've given? (3x intervals at ~75-80 TSS each, plus a morning ride at the weekend, say 100 TSS). Add to that you're probably lacking racecraft, certainly lacking a jump to deal with the surges, may possibly be as aero as a sail, and have a low FTP. So start by addressing your FTP, try to increase your CTL too (ride more), look at your bike setup and see if you can get some aero gains by getting lower and narrower, and see where you get. At 6ft tall and 12 stone, get busy shedding a stone too.

Southgate

^^ I think this is very good advice. I'm 50 this summer and I started racing late last year. At first I was hanging on in the bunch, drooling and gasping for breath with each surge. Now I'm comfortably finishing in the top third of the field. If anything, I'm a bit peeved not to have yet picked up any points, but I'm sure that will come in time as my racecraft improves and I pick better wheels to follow.

I was chatting with a guy from another club at Hillingdon on Saturday he told me he was getting spat out the bunch and lapped in his first few races last year. Now he's a contender. He's 52, I think. Neither of us have special genetics as far as I know - in fact I've got the build of a middle weight boxer, not a cyclist. I'm more fortunate than you in that I do 20 miles a day commuting and I try to integrate it into my training as best I can. It's a bit hit and miss obviously, but I do think it's probably the difference between getting dropped and being competitive. At my age I'm not sure that I would race if I only had 6 or 7 hours a week to ride my bike, but if you do persist I think you could do a lot worse than follow the advice of the commenter above. Good luck!

DeVlaeminck

Southgate wrote:

^^ I think this is very good advice.!

Yes, apart from shedding a stone!

Kryton57

Maryka - I'm eating relatively well at average 2200 cals per day and have lost 14lbs since last July. I suppose I could lose more but it wouldn't be easy.

Et al. I do have a sporting history. Middle distance runner at school, then outside centre in the Kent RFU until at the age of 25 my ankles and coxxix broke. I have run a 11 second 100m at 21yo. Even during the rugby I struggle to build - 3 x gum, 2 x training sessions and 1 x match day has me lean at 12st dead. At 25 I took up social mtb, at 35 I entered my first endurance race, at 40 I started road to get fitter and here I am at 42 staring to race. I'm of a top heavy build - gangly legs and barrel chest. Currently at 19% dead fat and a BMI of 22.8

According to trainer road which doesn't include 2 x road rides of 30k and 60k av 29.9kmph this week my TSS is 200.

Anything else I should add?

Birdthom

Your sporting history is much better than mine!

Your age isn't going to be an issue for 4th cat. 2200 cals per day doesn't sound like much to me though, I have to say. I'm 38 (39 this year), 6'1", 13.5 stone prior to cycling, I must eat over 3000 cals per day and I have levelled out at about 11st5lb. That's about half a stone more than last year, as I'm trying to keep a bit more muscle on me this time. Whilst being lighter would help you, there are plenty of competitive 4th cats who weigh well over 12st so I don't think weight is your issue, especially if you go for flat circuits. You should have all the attributes required, and given your earlier achievements you must have a good tolerance for pain, so I really do think it's just a case of hard work and time on the bike. You may also find that continuing to lose weight is leaving you short of the energy you would need to train and race at full intensity. That's just my guess, others on here will know far more than I do.

okgo

Very hard to say without seeing someone of they're lean at 6ft and 12 stone or not. I'm a touch taller but about that weight, just under and I'm pretty lean, other people look a bit tubby for the same stats. 19% suggests you'll lose weight of you do a bit more riding anyway. But as Tom says, it's not a huge issue at that level on most circuits, I was probably at the very least, 13 stone when I started 4th cat, though on Hillingdon you can get away with it a bit more.

200tss isn't much to be honest. I would imagine prior to racing 4th cat I was on at the very least doubling that. Of course TSS doesn't tell the whole story sometimes but it doesn't sound like a lot on first impressions.

DeVlaeminck

You can obsess over the figures too much.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

According to trainer road which doesn't include 2 x road rides of 30k and 60k av 29.9kmph this week my TSS is 200.

You simply do not ride enough, you're doing silly short hard intervals when you're just not fit enough. If you have basic physiology to run an 11 second 100m you do not need to do any short intervals, just ride more.

Kryton57

As I keep saying, I'd also like some time for my two kids after my 12hr a day job. I'm also in London and I'm not prepared to ride flat out in town in the dark.

DeVlaeminck

Kryton57 wrote:

As I keep saying, I'd also like some time for my two kids after my 12hr a day job. I'm also in London and I'm not prepared to ride flat out in town in the dark.

I'm with you there, cycling/life balance and all that. What are you doing now and when?

maryka

Kryton57 wrote:

As I keep saying, I'd also like some time for my two kids after my 12hr a day job. I'm also in London and I'm not prepared to ride flat out in town in the dark.

Can you explain why you keep doing short intervals on the turbo if you're only managing ~300-350 TSS a week? I see you did another one tonight. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, why did you even start this thread if you weren't going to take any advice seriously? How can you justify to your family the time you spend racing if you won't do the training you need to stay with the bunch? Why not just start TTing instead, at least you'll get a result?

Trainer Road has you more at ~150TSS not 200 a week btw. http://www.trainerroad.com/career/kryton57 (not spying on you, just going off the link you posted earlier in the thread) I will note that you managed 101 TSS for an hour last week, which is by definition impossible. So not only are you not doing any useful intervals, you aren't even doing them at an intensity that matters because your FTP is set way too low.

Lengthen your intervals, raise your FTP, get fitter, ride more. Sets of 2 min intervals are more interesting than 2x20s but they aren't what you need. If you're not ready to train properly you shouldn't bother racing imo.

Sorry to be harsh OP but that's the truth.

gattocattivo

For what it's worth, I dream of getting six hours of riding in per week. Strava has me down as doing 3 hours 7, 2 hours 29, 3 hours 57 and 4 hours 27 over the last four weeks (and that includes the racing).

Birdthom

gattocattivo wrote:

For what it's worth, I dream of getting six hours of riding in per week. Strava has me down as doing 3 hours 7, 2 hours 29, 3 hours 57 and 4 hours 27 over the last four weeks (and that includes the racing).

I dream of being able to race on three hours training per week ;-)

Kryton57

@maryka. I don't really understand the TSS stuff tbh. I'm following TR because it allowed me a structure to follow. I used Chris catmichaels time crunched plan last year.

The advice on here is "do more riding". So two questions,

A) now knowing my available time - when do you suggest?
why us there is much stuff about that states short intervals can train you to a point over 8-11 weeks if it's not true? Forgetting the sales pitch for a minute, if it was blatantly wrong wouldn't there be an outcry all over the internet?

Please remember what you can't see when judging my TSS is the 30k and 60k rides which aren't shown on TR. If TR shows 101 why is it impossible - I did what I'd did, I can't cheat? And what exactly would I raise my FTP to?

Tbh, right now this thread is putting me off bothering at all, because it seems that at least two or three of you are convinced that what I'm doing is wrong, suggesting a remedy to that which I can't attain, despite the anecdotal evidence elsewhere and from others.

Exactly where would I go from here?

Kryton57

In addition, if you can see today's session which is the same effort as last weeks you'll see I struggled more today - proof that's it's proving an effort for me to complete, regardless of what numbers TR is reporting.

Ate you suggesting that using one of TRs build plans with series of 10-20 intervals, rather than "novice racer" with its 2-3 minute intervals would get me fitter if used on turbo sessions?

imposter2.0

I expect to be shot down over this - but I think it was me who originally suggested battering yourself at race pace in short intervals, and I absolutely stand by that - especially if you are short of time. It's what I would do. In fact, it IS what I do. 1x 2x20 per week would also be useful, as would finding a local chain gang to ride with once a week - but if you are getting dropped when the pace and effort picks up, then you have to pick up your own effort and pace in training. Seems logical to me.

Chuck all that TSS stuff in the bin, by the way. It's a distraction.

maryka

I said it upthread. Do a proper FTP test when feeling fresh and motivated -- and none of this 8 min crap either. Get on the turbo, warm up, then ride 20 min as hard but as evenly paced as you possibly can. Take about 90-95% of that value and use it as your FTP for now. Start doing 2x20 min intervals at approximately 90% of your FTP (so at roughly 85% of what you did for your 20 min test).

2x20s mean warm up for 10 min, ride a 20 min intervals, recover 2-5 min, ride another 20 min interval, cool down for 5 min. That's about an hour. They will hurt, especially the second half of the second interval, but they should not crush you. Do that 2-3 times a week for the next 4 weeks then retest your FTP again. It doesn't always have to be 20 mins -- do 3x15 maybe to break it up, or 1x45. Throw in an acceleration every 3 min, or get out of the saddle every 5 min for 30 secs or whatever, but make sure your 20min interval averages ~90% of your FTP.

You've already shown that as an n=1 the short intervals aren't training you to be race fit, for whatever reason. So change it to do something else. Different people respond to different training, half the key of improving is finding what works for you and what makes you improve. What Imposter says might work for him but it doesn't seem to be working for you.

Birdthom

Kryton57 wrote:

Tbh, right now this thread is putting me off bothering at all, because it seems that at least two or three of you are convinced that what I'm doing is wrong, suggesting a remedy to that which I can't attain, despite the anecdotal evidence elsewhere and from others.

To be fair, a bunch of people who have been in your shoes are suggesting solutions that have worked for them rather than what they have read in a magazine. You must know from your past that the average person couldn't train for distance running very effectively by spending short amounts of time on a treadmill.

Kryton57

Birdthom wrote:

Kryton57 wrote:

To be fair, a bunch of people who have been in your shoes are suggesting solutions that have worked for them rather than what they have read in a magazine. You must know from your past that the average person couldn't train for distance running very effectively by spending short amounts of time on a treadmill.

Sure, but suggesting I do a 2hr ride when I've only got an hour to do it in isn't going to help me. I got the gist - I said and I did get out when I could - so last week was 2 x turbo plus 2 X out on the road at a good pace.

Maryka last para makes a good point - I did the tctp last year using heart rate totally outside on the road from July. It seemed to work and last September I was riding faster than I am now. I bought the turbo because I was fed up with staying indoors during the recent rainy spell. Riding harder for longer makes sense to me - and in reality is what I need for my mtb endurance events and the London100. Notwithstanding I've only done 3 races as a beginner so it's jot definitive that this plan isn't making me stronger.

Kryton57

I've just had a sneek peek at the "next" plan I was to embark on. Thats the "advanced century" and is mostly threshhold and over unders, with a couple of short interval workouts thrown in. Based on my success with the same in the TCTP and the comment s above this is probably what I should be doing - indoors or out.

Pross

I never understand these threads where someone asks advice and then moans that the advice being given isn't what they want to hear. At numerous times throughout this thread it has been suggested that you do longer intervals such as 2 x 20. These sessions are still only an hour long and so fit within the weekly total you said you are currently doing. I know people who race and race successfully on less time than you spend training (not me, I've never been able to discipline myself to structured training so I just accept the beating when I race).

DeVlaeminck

I don't think people are saying you need to ride more - obviously that would be ideal - most are saying you are doing too much high end stuff when you don't have the basic speed endurance. Most people that get dropped think they lack the top end but really they just get dropped because they are already on the limit and an acceleration tips them over it.

It would still be helpful if you could outline your training hours but could you do this?
Weekend 3 hour hard group ride, should come back feeling nicely toasted.
Week - any three of (2 would do at a pinch)
circuit race
2*20 as outlined above,
90 minute ride round Richmond Park or wherever you Londoners train, maintain a decent pace and attack any rises.
Chain gang - maybe 45 minutes plus warm up.

You will get more than enough anaerobic intervals in the race or hard bits on the training rides when the road kicks up or whatever. That gives you 3-4 rest days so all the sessions are hard.

imposter2.0

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people that get dropped think they lack the top end but really they just get dropped because they are already on the limit and an acceleration tips them over it.

Isn't that the same thing?

Pross

Imposter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people that get dropped think they lack the top end but really they just get dropped because they are already on the limit and an acceleration tips them over it.

Isn't that the same thing?

I assume what DV is saying is there is no point in working on a short term sprint if you are already knackered before the acceleration comes. It's a bit like expecting Chris Hoy to win a bunch sprint at the end of a 100 mile road race.

imposter2.0

I'm sure someone mentioned a lack of a) sustainable power and b) over-threshold/VO2-max power on page 2, I think..

maryka

Imposter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people that get dropped think they lack the top end but really they just get dropped because they are already on the limit and an acceleration tips them over it.

Isn't that the same thing?

Well not really. I know you've advised the OP to do short intense intervals but there's no sense in doing 2min intervals at 125% of threshold if your threshold is crap to begin with. The whole point of raising your threshold is that all other training zones/intensities are raised too.

E.g., threshold is 200w. Intervals are at 250w. Surges in races require 1-2 min at 300w which is 150% of his current FTP. OP gets dropped after a few of them. OP bumps his threshold to 250w. Surges at 300w are now at 125% of his current FTP. He manages to do a lot more of them before being dropped or isn't dropped at all (as we know he can handle 2min intervals at 125% of FTP).

Kryton57

Pross wrote:

I never understand these threads where someone asks advice and then moans that the advice being given isn't what they want to hear. At numerous times throughout this thread it has been suggested that you do longer intervals such as 2 x 20. These sessions are still only an hour long and so fit within the weekly total you said you are currently doing. I know people who race and race successfully on less time than you spend training (not me, I've never been able to discipline myself to structured training so I just accept the beating when I race).

I understand why you would say this, but I'm trying to work out the differential from individuals saying "this works for me" and all of these online tools which state " a level 2 coach created these plans and.... etc". Which do I believe?

However, I've got in now - the longer intervals.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

all of these online tools which state " a level 2 coach created these plans and.... etc". Which do I believe?

A BC level 2 coach is not insured by BC or trained to create training plans for individuals, this is what they can do:

"The Level 2 Coaching Certificate enables coaches to independently plan, deliver and evaluate a series of cycling activity sessions to groups of beginner and intermediate level children or adults. Level 2 coaches are able to use the British Cycling Go-Ride Gears 1–4 Coaching Workbooks to help plan their coaching activities."

Why would they be able to tell you about racing!