Can't stay with the pack - why?

okgo

Hard to say as they're pretty different things...

Also remember 4th cat racer covers a huge spectrum really, those that go on to be 3rd cats are FAR better than those that stay 4th cat forever. I'd expect a rider who was going to be able to get to 3rd cat to be around the hour on a fairly normal course.

ongej

Kryton57 wrote:

*waves at James*

includes a sub 5hr 100k in the Cotwolds. Also, my outside lunchtime rides have been completed at 30kmph averages inc. lights, roundabouts, traffic etc and I've pb'd all of the strava sections on climbs each time I've been out.

With 30kmph (as opposed to 30kph or 30mph), I think you do not have to worry about competition as you are going at Mach 40, hell, you could pedal yourself out into outer space if you are going up a hill ... sorry couldn't resist..

Birdthom

Kryton57 wrote:

*waves at James*

Haha! *waves at James too*

I'll see if I can get down South for a race with you boys this summer. Good luck, Stan.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

Normality I'd say that was a fair point, but yesterday it was raining and I was out on the winter Alu bike with lights and guards...

It's the temperature and air density that lead to the speed increase, not the presence of mudguards or rain (and water in the atmosphere lowers air density so speeds you up...)

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Somewhat related to this topic, what sort of performance for a flat 25 mile TT would be "good" for a typical 4th cat racer?

I'm guessing 66 minutes on a road bike with aerobars isn't the kind of performance to initiate the pre-emptive writing of victory speeches!

No, it's not a great time, doesn't mean you'd not be able to race a 4th cat race though.

CarleyB

Bloomin eck that took quite some reading.

There is some good advice from everyone, but remember individuality is key to training and offering advice. What works for one person doesn't work for another. People have told you what works for them and that is great, it's fantastic to see people sharing their training.

I do think one set of intervals a week is a good idea, a set that will work on your Short Term Muscular endurance, these help your body recover quicker after accelerations in pace.

Low end zone work is also good, it helps train your energy system to work more efficiently. So zone 2 on HR, these are your base mile zones, these rides need to be as long as you can make them, zone 3 on HR tempo work is key too. You can train on 6-7 hours a week easily if you train smartly.

I'm not going to offer advice other than to say the time available you have it can be done, but I would suggest you go back to basics, build your foundation and start from there. Do a proper FTP test as others have suggested and test yourself every 4-6 weeks.

wallace_and_gromit

jibberjim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Somewhat related to this topic, what sort of performance for a flat 25 mile TT would be "good" for a typical 4th cat racer?

I'm guessing 66 minutes on a road bike with aerobars isn't the kind of performance to initiate the pre-emptive writing of victory speeches!

No, it's not a great time, doesn't mean you'd not be able to race a 4th cat race though.

This was borne out by my experience last week in a 59k road race. There was 400m of climbing overall, and experienced hands said it was a "hard" course by the standards of local 3rd/4th cat road races.

Anyway, it was a 3/4 race with roughly half the field from each category. The field was pretty fragmented by the end and I finished 47th out of 62 finishers (70 starters) overall and "lower mid pack" amongst the 4th cats. (I think the top 15-20 was almost exclusively 3rd cat, so it looks like the hot shots who started the season at 4th cat have moved up to their natural level on the whole.)

It was a brutal affair until the bunch split, but after that the predominantly 4th cat bunch I was in was pretty evenly matched and we had a good race. Shame I started my sprint too early...

Good fun overall, and whilst I'll probably never be a contender, it's good to feel reasonably competitive amongst riders of the same category. Those 3rd cat guys are seriously f---ing fast!

willy b

As James has said seriously try and get out the the NLH route on Tuesday or Thursday. There is also the Summer CG route which is very quick (although doesn't run that often). Both will hurt, but both and excellent training rides.

wallace_and_gromit

I did another cat 3/4 race last night over a pretty flat 55k route. Despite my unimpressive time for the "25" (66 minutes - many cat 3/4 guys are under the hour) and there being a couple of right-angled corners requiring a full-on sprint on the exit, I kept up with the main bunch and even made progress forwards in the last 3 or 4k. It was worth the pain just to see the "double-take" from guys who usually wallop me as I eased alongside!

Not sure where the performance came from tbh. I've abused myself and been abused by others in training and races recently. Maybe my body is finally reacting positively rather than just feeling sorry for itself!

DavidJB

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Somewhat related to this topic, what sort of performance for a flat 25 mile TT would be "good" for a typical 4th cat racer?

I'm guessing 66 minutes on a road bike with aerobars isn't the kind of performance to initiate the pre-emptive writing of victory speeches!

No, it's not a great time, doesn't mean you'd not be able to race a 4th cat race though.

I finished 47th out of 62 finishers (70 starters)

Shame I started my sprint too early...

I've never understood why people sprint for 30th+.

wallace_and_gromit

DavidJB wrote:

I've never understood why people sprint for 30th+.

Because it's better than finishing 31st after losing the sprint. If you only race half a dozen times a year, it's nice to win the odd sprint, however lowly the finishing position.

DavidJB

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

I've never understood why people sprint for 30th+.

Because it's better than finishing 31st after losing the sprint. If you only race half a dozen times a year, it's nice to win the odd sprint, however lowly the finishing position.

Fair enough. If I'm not in the points I sit up...rather be able to race next week than be in a crash sprinting for nothing. But I race every week/twice a week and you don't race as often so it's different!

DeVlaeminck

Sprinting from a small group is a bit of fun, I'd probably sprint if the first 10-15 were away in a break. I don't think I'd sprint or 30 th in a bunch of 80.

wallace_and_gromit

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sprinting from a small group is a bit of fun, I'd probably sprint if the first 10-15 were away in a break. I don't think I'd sprint or 30 th in a bunch of 80.

When you're a newbie 4th cat in a 3/4 race, it's well worth sprinting for anything. For two reasons:

1 - You might end up well placed out of the 4th cat riders, which is a "nice to have" even if you've been tonked by the winners.

2 - If you do any 4th cat only races then you'll be well practiced in the dark arts of positioning, selecting the right wheel and timing the launch of your effort.

Obviously, if you're the local version of Mark Cavendish I can see that sprinting for the minor places won't float your boat!

Toks

What a really informative thread - great points made by the KW possee . The point about "threshold" - sustainable power can't ever be overstated in my opinion: Good Threshold power will: Bullet proof ya legs, help you to stay with breakaways; aid your recovery from hills and surges, ensure you get to put the hurt on others etc
Now of course if your bunch skills are sloppy, and if you're anaerobic power (30sec-2mins) is particulary weak or your riding with higher threshold dudes your still gonna struggle. If not 8) 8) 8)

DeVlaeminck

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sprinting from a small group is a bit of fun, I'd probably sprint if the first 10-15 were away in a break. I don't think I'd sprint or 30 th in a bunch of 80.

When you're a newbie 4th cat in a 3/4 race, it's well worth sprinting for anything. For two reasons:

1 - You might end up well placed out of the 4th cat riders, which is a "nice to have" even if you've been tonked by the winners.

2 - If you do any 4th cat only races then you'll be well practiced in the dark arts of positioning, selecting the right wheel and timing the launch of your effort.

Obviously, if you're the local version of Mark Cavendish I can see that sprinting for the minor places won't float your boat!

In most races they wont classify riders all the way down so you'd have no idea if you were first fourth cat - which in any case would be meaningless and most of them wont be sprinting for 30th !

Nothing against people doing it if it's safe but if you are far enough back others have stopped sprinting going all out may not be the safest thing to do.

celbianchi

Sprinting, unless it it is how you earn your living, is lacking in dignity. Ride to be the only man in the photograph at the finish.

okgo

celbianchi wrote:

Sprinting, unless it it is how you earn your living, is lacking in dignity. Ride to be the only man in the photograph at the finish.

You only hear this sort of CRAP from people who cannot sprint to save their lives!

Winning a race is winning a race, yes everyone at some point wants to win solo, but there is certainly no lack of dignity by winning from a sprint, I'd expect claptrap like that from one of the helmets in pro race forum, but not here!

PuttyKnees

As someone who cannot sprint, I agree with celbianchi :-)

Lookyhere

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sprinting from a small group is a bit of fun, I'd probably sprint if the first 10-15 were away in a break. I don't think I'd sprint or 30 th in a bunch of 80.

When you're a newbie 4th cat in a 3/4 race, it's well worth sprinting for anything. For two reasons:

1 - You might end up well placed out of the 4th cat riders, which is a "nice to have" even if you've been tonked by the winners.

2 - If you do any 4th cat only races then you'll be well practiced in the dark arts of positioning, selecting the right wheel and timing the launch of your effort.

Obviously, if you're the local version of Mark Cavendish I can see that sprinting for the minor places won't float your boat!

Crash after crash happens because people " follow a wheel" (who you have absolutely no idea who he is or what he might do) sprinting for xxx th place only for said rider to sit up and the would be MarkC go straight in the back of him or swerve to avoid, bring down a load of riders.
Yours and many others attitudes is why seemingly safe and wide ccts have so many horrific crashes - in most cases if you are not in the top 10 or 15 coming out the last corner then you ve no chance.
Sprinting for fun from a small grp off the back is of course a great laugh !

celbianchi

okgo wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Sprinting, unless it it is how you earn your living, is lacking in dignity. Ride to be the only man in the photograph at the finish.

You only hear this sort of CRAP from people who cannot sprint to save their lives!

Winning a race is winning a race, yes everyone at some point wants to win solo, but there is certainly no lack of dignity by winning from a sprint, I'd expect claptrap like that from one of the helmets in pro race forum, but not here!

wallace_and_gromit

Lookyhere wrote:

Crash after crash happens because people " follow a wheel" (who you have absolutely no idea who he is or what he might do) sprinting for xxx th place only for said rider to sit up and the would be MarkC go straight in the back of him or swerve to avoid, bring down a load of riders.

Is the issue here the person fulfilling the description of the event (i.e. "Race") by sprinting for whatever place they can achieve or the person who simply sits up in the middle of the finishing straight, thus coverting him/herself into a slower moving obstacle?

I'm new to the racing game, but I would think that riders have an obligation to not just sit up because they're not going to finish in the points, just as riders have an obligation not to swerve off their line in the middle of the bunch.

However much it offends their sensibilities, they should (in my view) continue "making proper progress" (a bit like you have to in your driving test) to avoid being a hazard to those who are sprinting for minor place glory. Obviously, if a rider's legs give up the ghost in the final stages then rapidly transforming into a slower moving obstable is simply a racing incident.

jibberjim

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

However much it offends their sensibilities, they should (in my view) continue "making proper progress" (a bit like you have to in your driving test) to avoid being a hazard to those who are sprinting for minor place glory.

No, they shouldn't brake, or deviate, but you can't expect them to continue to put out the hundreds of watts that would be required for them to vaguely maintain status.

Don't sprint in the middle of the pack, it's not safe, that's why it's not done, not because it avoids sensibilities.

wallace_and_gromit

jibberjim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

However much it offends their sensibilities, they should (in my view) continue "making proper progress" (a bit like you have to in your driving test) to avoid being a hazard to those who are sprinting for minor place glory.

No, they shouldn't brake, or deviate, but you can't expect them to continue to put out the hundreds of watts that would be required for them to vaguely maintain status.

Don't sprint in the middle of the pack, it's not safe, that's why it's not done, not because it avoids sensibilities.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks. It never occurred to me that you're expected to not sprint for the minor placings. It's never been mentioned in any race briefing I've received.

Obviously, the general guidance to ride safely over-rides everything, but I don't think this should automatically exclude being a sad g*t and sprinting for 30th place.

maryka

Minor placings = worth nothing after 10th or 15th place (depending how far the points and money goes down).

If you're racing over in on the continent it's different as they often have money for 30th place but that's proper racing, not chipper Hillingdon 4th cats on a Saturday afternoon for 50 min + 5 laps.

The only time to sprint (not let gaps open up in front of you) for middle to back of pack placings is in a stage race where you could lose time on GC if there's a gap between you and the riders in front.

wallace_and_gromit

maryka wrote:

Minor placings = worth nothing after 10th or 15th place (depending how far the points and money goes down).

If you're racing over in on the continent it's different as they often have money for 30th place but that's proper racing, not chipper Hillingdon 4th cats on a Saturday afternoon for 50 min + 5 laps.

The only time to sprint (not let gaps open up in front of you) for middle to back of pack placings is in a stage race where you could lose time on GC if there's a gap between you and the riders in front.

You've probably forgotten more about racing than I'll ever know, but your post betrays a certain lack of appreciation as to the realities of bike racing for the 30 or 40 something "Weekend Warriors", most notably, the bits I've bolded above.

First bit - To you maybe. But when you have to practically kill yourself to stay with the bunch in a flat Cat 3/4 race then beating anyone is worth it.

Second bit - Quite so. Next time I find the time to race for money on the continent I will be extra motivated. Until then, I'll stick to finding whatever satisfaction I can find on the local road race circuit, and even here work and family commitments almost always conspire to give imperfect preparation.

If you extend your logic then anyone below World Tour level (or juniors aspiring to such a level) should not race at all as points as the odd tenner for a minor place are worth diddly squat. If memory serves, the likes of Froome and JTL were on contracts pre-Sky which were less valuable financially than flipping burgers at McDonalds, so you need to be unbelievably good to even get paid the equivalent of a minimum wage (or something close to it) job in the real world. Surely old guys racing for the mere honour of not finishing last is the very essence of what Baron de Coubertain had in mind all those years ago!

Third bit - Stage race? I'd be ecstatic if I could get out for a ride both days at the weekend without incurring the Spousal Death Stare!

maryka

Without delving into the melodrama of your post, honestly... nobody is saying don't ride hard to the finish. But regardless of egos ("beating anyone is worth it" -- really?) it's about safety and predictability and not making sudden pace changes in the middle of the bunch when on the rivet already. You don't attack from the middle of the bunch with a huge jump and sprint when surrounded by riders on all sides, so don't sprint for the finish line like that either!

That said, don't sit up and ease off, just keep pedalling (in a straight line), stay aware of what's around you, don't run into the back of someone, don't switch your line, don't brake.

I understand what you mean but sprinting like your life depends on it for 30th place really has no place in big bunch finishes. Road races or crits where the field breaks up so much you're in a small group at the finish, fine.

wallace_and_gromit

maryka wrote:

Without delving into the melodrama of your post, honestly... nobody is saying don't ride hard to the finish. But regardless of egos ("beating anyone is worth it" -- really?) it's about safety and predictability and not making sudden pace changes in the middle of the bunch when on the rivet already. You don't attack from the middle of the bunch with a huge jump and sprint when surrounded by riders on all sides, so don't sprint for the finish line like that either!

That said, don't sit up and ease off, just keep pedalling (in a straight line), stay aware of what's around you, don't run into the back of someone, don't switch your line, don't brake.

I understand what you mean but sprinting like your life depends on it for 30th place really has no place in big bunch finishes. Road races or crits where the field breaks up so much you're in a small group at the finish, fine.

Perhaps it's best to avoid absolute statements like "Don't sprint for the minor placings because it's dangerous" and simply operate on the premise that you ride your own race for whatever motivation you have, but do so safely.

The discussion above re the merits or otherwise of sprinting for minor placings has mixed up safety and dignity issues. I get the safety side of things, but I'm happy to appear undignified and sprint simply to avoid coming last. It's important to me, though I'd never knowingly compromise safety to achieve this. You're probably too good to appreciate what it's like at the lower end of the ability food chain - severe beatings are the expectation, and it's good if at least one person in the race gets beaten more severely!

The caveat to Velominati Rule 70 sums it up well - Sometimes the manner of defeat is victory in itself.

wallace_and_gromit

madasahattersley wrote:

If you feel like you have to hammer yourself and sprint like cav in the middle of a bunch that are just rolling in just to feel like you're achieving anything then to be honest you're probably doing races that are too hard for you.

Unfortunately, BC doesn't allow Cat 4 only races on the road, so I have to race Cat 3/4 and they are indeed too hard for me, but they are the "easiest" road races that there are!

I raced a Cat 4 only event last year on a flat, non-technical course (Dishforth airfield) and that was right up my street (I bagged my as yet only BC point!) but the local racing programme this season has only offered Cat 4 crits which I don't particularly enjoy and Cat 3/4 road races, which I do enjoy but are basically too fast for me, so I haven't had the chance to race in my "best" type of event.

It's also worth noting that in my lower/mid pack sprints, I've never come remotely close to causing an accident and encounter very few people just rolling in, so my conscience is clear in respect of the two major issues highlighted. (Or maybe the people who I edge past in sprints are just rolling in!)

DeVlaeminck

It does depend on the finish - in a big bunch on a closed circuit then sprinting for 30th is dangerous and you are just beating people who aren't actually trying anyway. If it's an uphill finish on the road with plenty of space or you are in a small group then by all means have a sprint for the line.

fcukwit

Got to agree - sprinting on the flat for any place outside the points is a waste of time and often can cause accidents. On the flat, outside the points - either train harder / smarter or get off the front and have a go before the sprint.