Can't stay with the pack - why?

wallace_and_gromit

DeVlaeminck wrote:

What training are you doing that you can't walk!

I assume this is a rhetorical question, but the answer is "short intervals".

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Re. obree - we are talking a world record where seconds xould make the difference over a full hour - and he still got the record - he actually went better after a hard effort the previous day!

This was definitely the exception to prove the rule though, surely?

I can see that through a season too much "resting up" will compromise training time to the extend that performance declines over time. But on any given Thursday, there's simply not enough time to recover from hard training by the Saturday to maximise performance, so by this stage, light training or rest is the best thing to do. I thought a whole industry of against the rules drug taking had sprung up precisely to get round the length of time recovery from hard efforts takes.

Maybe I should just take up basket-weaving.

DeVlaeminck

I should preface this by saying what works for me may not work for others, but I have found I can go well on tired legs unless the previous day was long and brutal - so I could race the day adter a chain gang, turbo session or circuit race, but I wouldn't race as well after a 70 mile fast sufferfest in the Peak or a hard hilly road race - it's full gas up climbs on already tired legs that seems to leave me feeling it the next day.

wallace_and_gromit

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I should preface this by saying what works for me may not work for others, but I have found I can go well on tired legs unless the previous day was long and brutal - so I could race the day adter a chain gang, turbo session or circuit race, but I wouldn't race as well after a 70 mile fast sufferfest in the Peak or a hard hilly road race - it's full gas up climbs on already tired legs that seems to leave me feeling it the next day.

That makes sense. There were some guys in my crit race on Saturday who did a 50k RR the next day, staying with the bunch quite happily. I didn't even have the energy to get the lawnmower out! I guess we all have different thresholds for prior work levels/intensity that result in dodgy performance if we cross it.

jibberjim

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

I'm curious as to why resting prior to a race is suggested as a bad idea. It takes a couple of days at least to recover from and adapt to a hard training effort, so if you train hard close to a race, you'll compromise performance on the day, I'd have thought. If you need all your planets aligned to keep up, then worrying about missing training is surely a secondary consideration to maximising performance on the day. If you're worring about missing too much training as a result then you just have to target a smaller number of races.

Because while it may make it slightly harder to stay with the bunch in that race, all you're doing is guaranteeing you're not going to get any better because you're not training enough, too much rest... Targetting a smaller number of races doesn't help either because racing has a huge amount of skill involved, if you don't bother practicing that skill you're wasting your time. TT'ing may be different of course.

Also, if your struggling to walk up stairs after an interval session, you're almost certainly doing something wrong, very possibly trying to do many short interval sessions that you're simply not fit enough for. Also there are plenty of people who'd say 2 days off would leave them with completely "blocked" legs, and there's others who do get better with successive hard days.

If you don't even have the energy to get a lawnmower out the day after a 4th cat crit, I'd think about training BETTER, at the very least.

racingcondor

I'll echo what others are saying. More base and less intervals. I think the recovery time from pushing so hard in the intervals is holding you back so while those intervals are probably boosting how you recover from going into the red they're probably not doing much to increase your base speed. If you're going into the red while you're in the bunch (except up the Hoggenberg) you aren't fit enough (I should know, that was me last spring).

I'd also advise going out for an hours spin the day after doing one of your tough interval sessions, stay in the small ring and just get the muscles working again. Really helps a lot.

The good news is that you may not be fat off the pace. The first 3-4 laps are often very fast so once you can survive that you'll be fine (at least for a while. Probably ;-)).

wallace_and_gromit

jibberjim wrote:

If you don't even have the energy to get a lawnmower out the day after a 4th cat crit, I'd think about training BETTER, at the very least.

No shit, Sherlock! Who'd have thought about training better?

I spend all my time training badly deliberately just so I can get my arse kicked from pillar to post every time I sign on. It gets a bit boring if I train well and cruise round in the bunch. I like my cycling to have an element of challenge to it.

slowbike

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

It gets a bit boring if I train well and cruise round in the bunch. I like my cycling to have an element of challenge to it.

Yer - but it would be nice wouldn't it ... up the incline to sit there and comfortably hold a one sided conversation with the chap next to you who is now breathing out his arse just trying to hold the wheel in front ... then move up and down the bunch at will without sign of any perspiration! But I don't think you're allowed electric assist bikes in races!

jibberjim

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

If you don't even have the energy to get a lawnmower out the day after a 4th cat crit, I'd think about training BETTER, at the very least.

No shoot, Sherlock! Who'd have thought about training better?

I spend all my time training badly deliberately just so I can get my ars* kicked from pillar to post every time I sign on. It gets a bit boring if I train well and cruise round in the bunch. I like my cycling to have an element of challenge to it.

So what are you doing to change your training? You freely admitted that your current training leaves you unable to do stuff, so why are you training like that? If you know the answer, start doing it, if you don't know the answer, why are you suggesting to others that it's a viable approach?

Pross

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but just having bunch riding skills is also likely to be a problem. If you are nervous of holding a wheel and are hanging around at the back of the bunch you are probably using more energy than you should be. If (reading between the lines) you have done most of your riding on a trainer / riding solo then there's a fair chance you aren't comfortable being in a tight group and may be giving yourself space. The further back you are the longer the sprint out of corners or when the bunch accelerates. Group riding skills won't stop you getting dropped if you are truly unfit (especially on a lumpy circuit) but they will help you out if you are moderately fit. Raised heart rate could also be in part due to adrenaline due to nerves maybe?

bigmat

You probably just need to race more to get used to the exertion as well as bike handling, following wheels, cornering etc. Of course if you're getting dropped early on then you don't really get the benefit of "racing as training" so maybe you need to identify some other races that you can manage a bit better in the meantime - Hillingdon perhaps, or Preston Park in Brighton?

I was in the same boat at Crystal Palace last year, kept getting dropped after 4 or 5 laps. Gets a bit demoralising after a few weeks, was desperate for an easy race just to get my mojo back!

wallace_and_gromit

jibberjim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

If you don't even have the energy to get a lawnmower out the day after a 4th cat crit, I'd think about training BETTER, at the very least.

No shoot, Sherlock! Who'd have thought about training better?

I spend all my time training badly deliberately just so I can get my ars* kicked from pillar to post every time I sign on. It gets a bit boring if I train well and cruise round in the bunch. I like my cycling to have an element of challenge to it.

So what are you doing to change your training? You freely admitted that your current training leaves you unable to do stuff, so why are you training like that? If you know the answer, start doing it, if you don't know the answer, why are you suggesting to others that it's a viable approach?

Sorry for my previous post. It was out of order. I appreciate your attempts to help.

I actually think my training is pretty good at maximising my performance. All my best performances have come after a period of hard training followed by enough rest to recover properly. I did bag a rather nice 10th place at the end of last season, when I suspect a lot of good Cat 4s were on holiday or had already moved up to Cat 3. Competition at the moment seems a lot tougher, as I'm no slower over distance than I was last summer and am a fair bit quicker in explosive efforts.

The problem I have is the one that drives people to dope - no amount of hard/smart training can overcome a basic lack of genetic material. When you're conceding circa 10 minutes over a "25" there's only so much you can do.

Southgate

jibberjim wrote:

If you don't even have the energy to get a lawnmower out the day after a 4th cat crit, I'd think about training BETTER, at the very least.

This is the excuse I've been giving Mrs Southgate for avoiding the gardening, and it's been working a treat. These forums aren't private you know. Why the heck did you have to go and ruin my Sunday afternoons?

Kryton57

racingcondor wrote:

I'd also advise going out for an hours spin the day after doing one of your tough interval sessions, stay in the small ring and just get the muscles working again. Really helps a lot.

I did exactly this Friday.

Thanks all for the advice so far. Not really sure how I could be wiser with my training - I'm 2-3 intervals sessions, a 20k spin and a race club ride a week - are you suggesting I get an extra ride in of a good distance, and stop worrying about a rest day between intervals?

imposter2.0

As I said earlier, I suspect the problem is more with the quality/intensity of the intervals...

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

Thanks all for the advice so far. Not really sure how I could be wiser with my training - I'm 2-3 intervals sessions, a 20k spin and a race club ride a week - are you suggesting I get an extra ride in of a good distance, and stop worrying about a rest day between intervals?

I suggest you stop the formal intervals all together, certainly not 3 a week, and absolutely forget about them unless they're reasonably long, and certainly forget about resting before or after them. There's 3 basic energy systems, insanely short, very short, and everything else. The short and very short respond quickly to both training and resting, but also plateau quickly. The everything else one (which is everything over a couple of minutes) is the one which takes time to respond to training and doesn't plateau as quickly. So that's the one to focus on. If all you're doing is short intervals then it's not too surprising you're reaching your limits.

First thing you need to do though is get the training volume up (and short interval sessions are low volume so you're really maybe doing one ride a week - your "race club ride") and then maybe think more, what I'd really say is you're simply not ready for training, you've not done enough JRA.

Don't listen to bollocks about genetic limits, the number of people who's genetic limits are holding them back from 4th cat racing are tiny, and are the sort of people who are extremely unlikely to take up any aerobic sports.

imposter2.0

jibberjim wrote:

what I'd really say is you're simply not ready for training, you've not done enough JRA.

15 years mountain biking and three years on the road?? - I'd say he has plenty of JRA in his legs.

I'm not going to get into an argument on this, but your ability to maintain contact with the bunch while riding at high/ threshold effort is what is holding you back. The way to address that (IMO) is to ride at or just below those intensities for short periods. If your aim was 25 mile TTs, I might suggest longer intervals, but it isn't.

jibberjim

Imposter wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

what I'd really say is you're simply not ready for training, you've not done enough JRA.

15 years mountain biking and three years on the road?? - I'd say he has plenty of JRA in his legs.

he's riding 3 times a week, that's not a whole lot of JRA...

Omar Little

If you had followed some of the recommendations you were given a couple of months ago on STW then you'd likely now have been able to stay with the pack

Kryton57

Omar, i think I did if we are talking the same thread?

It is keeping up with the bunch I'm having an issue with. The 2 cat 4's I've done I've averaged 32.5 and 30kmph solo. But I need to be punchier than that.

I think I'm more confused than ever now. With me working all over the country I can only snatch an hour here and there, with a morning ride at the weekend. I don't have time to go on several multiple hour rides in the week and while I accept that may be a limitation, there's lots of info about the types of cyclic plans available to suit a time limited person like me, based on 8-11 week cycles of intervals. I appreciate that it needs some base, but ditching the intervals? What else would I do?

Not sure about the working hard enough comment. FYI, I've just come home to perform 3x1 min 150% FTP followed by 5x3 min 130% FTP. Fwiw, I was nearly sick on the 5th but held it together to finish. It wasn't easy.

Imposter wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

what I'd really say is you're simply not ready for training, you've not done enough JRA.

I'm not going to get into an argument on this, but your ability to maintain contact with the bunch while riding at high/ threshold effort is what is holding you back. The way to address that (IMO) is to ride at or just below those intensities for short periods. If your aim was 25 mile TTs, I might suggest longer intervals, but it isn't.

This is my view, my current "plan" has me doing that and o/u's for the next 6 weeks.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

Not sure about the working hard enough comment. FYI, I've just come home to perform 3x1 min 150% FTP followed by 5x3 min 130% FTP. Fwiw, I was nearly sick on the 5th but held it together to finish. It wasn't easy.

So you did 18 minutes of training today, and you expect to race?

Kryton57

No I did an hour of riding, without coasting and always generating power in a very specific way.

You might want to google "interval training" before you continue.

DeVlaeminck

What does a typical training week look like?

I can see that on 6-7 hours a week (I'm assuming that's a decent week not a yearly average allowing for illness, holidays etc) you do need to be fairly focused....but...an interval session like that is extremely hard I think you need to do more volume to really be able to get the best out of it.

I had a decent season off 4 sessions a week about 7-8 hours.
Weekend - one of long RR, long hilly group ride, 60 mile solo effort up and down A6
Tuesday and Thursday - either hard chain gang, 2*20 session (often on road), rolling club TT (30 mins)
Wednesday After work - 2 hours in the hills just for fun.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

No I did an hour of riding, without coasting and always generating power in a very specific way.

You might want to google "interval training" before you continue.

I understand interval training, and you did 18 minutes of training today and some rest intervals (and as they were defined by FTP and you couldn't've achieved 100% of FTP NP for an hour by definition, we know they were pretty low intensity) Certainly without the rest intervals you couldn't've trained those 18 minutes as intensely as you did, but it doesn't really change the fact that the actual training - designed to improve your performance consisted of just 18 minutes.

(Incidentally most people can't do 130% of FTP for 3 minutes 5 times in a row, let alone after those 1 minute efforts, so I'd query your FTP a bit if you can complete that work out)

Kryton57

Ok I understand that, but your argument implies that that my training is essentially about 54 minutes a week plus one 80-100k club ride. If that were really the bare bones issue, why would the coaches for TR, Chris Carmichael etc advocate time limited turbo plans such as this and quite specifically put the word "race" or categorise them as "race orientated" plans if they are effectively as useless as a 54 minute ride?

Re the FTP; you are possibley right, as mentioned i calculated it on a hangover. Perhaps more indicative, the on intervals were 220w and the off were 92w bookended by 5 and 15 mins of 110w. Feel free to have a look here http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/872617-Spencer. Bear in mind this is still "virtual" power calculations not from a power meter, and in calculated indoors on a trainer.

DavidJB

I know TR isn't accurate (but even at +/- 30w this would apply) but putting on 220w and in a 3 min interval and nearly being sick??? @ 12 stone!

I'm a pretty crap second cat and 220w is the middle of my endurance zone (at a stone lighter!). Also calculating your FTP 'on a hangover' shows you're not really serious about your training.

ongej

I think the virtual power of the OP is off by quite a substantial amount... being able to hold 20mph on your own on the flat will require at least 220-240 watts I think (depending on size), on the OP said that he could maintain that for a long time...which in turn implies that the real ftp may be in the range of 260-300 watts (if not more) so I would think that his vomit inducing intervals are most probably somewhere in the range of 300-400 watts..

Kryton57

It was only the last - the 8th or 5th of the 5x 3min - that is started to feel a bit nausues in my stomach - I wasn't at wretching point.

FWIW, my garmin was showing 23mph at 220w "virtual power" during those intervals which is reading from my cadence meter, not sure if that helps.

We all know that that indoor watts on a turbo is massively below outdoor watts though, even using a power meter.....

okgo

ongej wrote:

I think the virtual power of the OP is off by quite a substantial amount... being able to hold 20mph on your own on the flat will require at least 220-240 watts I think (depending on size), on the OP said that he could maintain that for a long time...which in turn implies that the real ftp may be in the range of 260-300 watts (if not more) so I would think that his vomit inducing intervals are most probably somewhere in the range of 300-400 watts..

Possibly, he would be fine on a flatter circuit with those numbers, Hog Hill isn't the easiest circuit if you're not one of the fitter people in your category. But still think if your numbers were correct he would be OK round HH.

The reason TR put the words race and such into their plans is to sell them. Without actual power I am not sure I could be arsed to follow a TR program as the wattages seem to vary drastically, and I've heard from people that they drift more the higher they go which isn't ideal.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

Ok I understand that, but your argument implies that that my training is essentially about 54 minutes a week plus one 80-100k club ride. If that were really the bare bones issue, why would the coaches for TR, Chris Carmichael etc advocate time limited turbo plans such as this and quite specifically put the word "race" or categorise them as "race orientated" plans if they are effectively as useless as a 54 minute ride?

Because they want to sell them! and US category racing tends to be a lot easier than UK at the lower levels depending on where they are in the country - the much smaller depth of field and fact few people train through winter.

It's also probably more effective than a single 54 minute ride, (but training short term powers may be less beneficial for you than longer ones right now.) But basically the problem is it's not working for you, if it's not working, you need to change your training, do more, do something different, or something...

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

We all know that that indoor watts on a turbo is massively below outdoor watts though, even using a power meter.....

No... not necessarily at all, but for some certainly, however if it is then also likely that the training benefit of doing it on a turbo is reduced.