Can't stay with the pack - why?

imposter2.0

Kryton57 wrote:

I understand why you would say this, but I'm trying to work out the differential from individuals saying "this works for me" and all of these online tools which state " a level 2 coach created these plans and.... etc". Which do I believe?

Can you provide a link to the plans created by a L2 coach? As Jim says, that is way above L2 remit.

Kryton57

maryka wrote:

Imposter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people that get dropped think they lack the top end but really they just get dropped because they are already on the limit and an acceleration tips them over it.

Isn't that the same thing?

Well not really. I know you've advised the OP to do short intense intervals but there's no sense in doing 2min intervals at 125% of threshold if your threshold is crap to begin with. The whole point of raising your threshold is that all other training zones/intensities are raised too.

E.g., threshold is 200w. Intervals are at 250w. Surges in races require 1-2 min at 300w which is 150% of his current FTP. OP gets dropped after a few of them. OP bumps his threshold to 250w. Surges at 300w are now at 125% of his current FTP. He manages to do a lot more of them before being dropped or isn't dropped at all (as we know he can handle 2min intervals at 125% of FTP).

This has made the most sense to me tbh, thanks. FWIW my current training plan would be (the day varies with where/what I am doing for work I'm quite often away from home);

Tuesday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr
Wednesday or Thursday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr. Sometimes an MTB social evening ride - 2hr
Friday - Lunchtime or evening now the light is coming 1hr/90min road ride -30-40k hitting strava segments on climbs, 4 x short steep climbs, 1 x 5% 3mile drag and the rest flat roads for 1 x tempo/Vo2 max to occure on the road

(The weekend changes to suite racing)
Saturday - 1 x 25k "loosener" at recovery, or Race
Sunday - 1 x 3-4hr / 100k club ride or recovery ride if there was a race on Saturday.

Looks like I should change my mid week intervals as maryka suggests, to threshold.

Kryton57

Apologies - whatever Chris Carmichaels and the TR guys credentials are.

Pross

Kryton57 wrote:

Pross wrote:

I never understand these threads where someone asks advice and then moans that the advice being given isn't what they want to hear. At numerous times throughout this thread it has been suggested that you do longer intervals such as 2 x 20. These sessions are still only an hour long and so fit within the weekly total you said you are currently doing. I know people who race and race successfully on less time than you spend training (not me, I've never been able to discipline myself to structured training so I just accept the beating when I race).

I understand why you would say this, but I'm trying to work out the differential from individuals saying "this works for me" and all of these online tools which state " a level 2 coach created these plans and.... etc". Which do I believe?

However, I've got in now - the longer intervals.

I'm a British Cycling Level 2 Coach and I suspect I'm not the only one that has contributed to this thread. As Jim has pointed out, level 2 coaching courses teach you nothing about training plans.

Birdthom

Kryton57 wrote:

Tuesday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr
Wednesday or Thursday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr. Sometimes an MTB social evening ride - 2hr
Friday - Lunchtime or evening 1hr/90min road ride -30-40k hitting strava segments on climbs
Saturday - 1 x 25k "loosener" at recovery, or Race
Sunday - 1 x 3-4hr / 100k club ride or recovery ride if there was a race on Saturday.

Looks like I should change my mid week intervals as maryka suggests, to threshold.

I would follow Maryka's advice in your situation, but I really don't think you're getting the right volume or intensity of training out of the limited time you are putting in.

I presume your lunchtime turbo hour has to include all the pre-and-post training getting changed, warming up etc and you are getting significantly less than an hour of actual training in each session? None of your road sessions look long enough apart from the Sunday club ride, and none of them look particularly hard or fast. You don't need any social or recovery rides when you are only riding 5 days per week on limited mileage.

The guys who are setting the pace in your races are training harder.

I don't think any of us are trying to beat you up about this, and no-one's chucking glib quotes or slogans at you - the message has been pretty consistent from the start.

Kryton57

I'm not getting offended , nor trying to offend anyone.

Just trying to work out whats right for me. FWIW those 1hr's are real hours - I work from home, a bike is attached to the Turbo from the weekend onwards so dithering about getting ready is not included - its a real 1 hour session.

I go out on my rides pretty hard - the shorts sprints as I mention I aim for the best I can to get the "strava KOM" (in fact I have two of them). The long 3m drag is a strava segment to, so its easy to give me a climbing time to beat, as are the Thereshold and VO2 Max runs - I guess only the latter is measureable buts thats about 4 miles flat out on the drops. With traffic light stops, roundabouts & traffic both the 30k ride which was that same route, and the 60k ride average 30kmph - thats not overly slow or going easy, and again is a target for me to beat.

Kryton57

Birdthom wrote:

I would follow Maryka's advice in your situation, but I really don't think you're getting the right volume or intensity of training out of the limited time you are putting in.
.

So there's the crux of what I'm trying to get across - what should I do then, besides giving it up as a lost cause?

maryka

Kryton57 wrote:

Birdthom wrote:

I would follow Maryka's advice in your situation, but I really don't think you're getting the right volume or intensity of training out of the limited time you are putting in.
.

So there's the crux of what I'm trying to get across - what should I do then, besides giving it up as a lost cause?

Maybe go back and read my posts?

Pross

Kryton57 wrote:

Birdthom wrote:

I would follow Maryka's advice in your situation, but I really don't think you're getting the right volume or intensity of training out of the limited time you are putting in.
.

So there's the crux of what I'm trying to get across - what should I do then, besides giving it up as a lost cause?

People have given you suggestions throughout the last 7 pages. Some have ignored your limited time but many have suggested longer, slightly less intense intervals. As an alternative you could stay away from the internet during the day allowing you to finish work earlier and gain another hour to train!

Birdthom

Alternatively, if you don't want to train in traffic then get to bed by 11pm, get up at 5am and hit the road for two hours before going to work four days per week (on top of your weekend rides). That's probably not sustainable with your lifestyle, but it doesn't eat into your time with the kids or work and if you improve after four weeks or so then at least you'll have some answers.

Kryton57

Sorry Maryka, but I read this "....but I really don't think you're getting the right volume or intensity of training out of the limited time you are putting in..."

...as despite the fact I might change to longer threshold intervals I STILL don't have enough time - or did I read it wrong?

DeVlaeminck

Kryton57 wrote:

This has made the most sense to me tbh, thanks. FWIW my current training plan would be (the day varies with where/what I am doing for work I'm quite often away from home);

Tuesday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr
Wednesday or Thursday - Lunchtime if WFH or evening Turbo interval - 1hr. Sometimes an MTB social evening ride - 2hr
Friday - Lunchtime or evening now the light is coming 1hr/90min road ride -30-40k hitting strava segments on climbs, 4 x short steep climbs, 1 x 5% 3mile drag and the rest flat roads for 1 x tempo/Vo2 max to occure on the road

(The weekend changes to suite racing)
Saturday - 1 x 25k "loosener" at recovery, or Race
Sunday - 1 x 3-4hr / 100k club ride or recovery ride if there was a race on Saturday.

Looks like I should change my mid week intervals as maryka suggests, to threshold.

Yes.
Monday - off
Tue - chaingang OR 2*20 interval as Maryka outlined (chaingang better, 2*20s can be done on road if a suitable one exists locally - in London I guess not?)
Wed - 90 minute road ride (your Friday ride - don't make it too hard)
Thur - Turbo 2*20 (swop Wed and Thurs if you want)
Fri - off (or if not racing do you 90 minute road ride today instead of Wed and do your social MTB ride Wed)
Sat - Race or off
Sun - 3-4 hour group ride every week irrespective of what you did yesterday

4 sessions a week, 6.5 - 7.5 hrs / week

Kryton57

Finally it clicks, Thankyou!

slam that stem

Kryton57 wrote:

Maryka - I'm eating relatively well at average 2200 cals per day and have lost 14lbs since last July. I suppose I could lose more but it wouldn't be easy.

Et al. I do have a sporting history. Middle distance runner at school, then outside centre in the Kent RFU until at the age of 25 my ankles and coxxix broke. I have run a 11 second 100m at 21yo. Even during the rugby I struggle to build - 3 x gum, 2 x training sessions and 1 x match day has me lean at 12st dead. At 25 I took up social mtb, at 35 I entered my first endurance race, at 40 I started road to get fitter and here I am at 42 staring to race. I'm of a top heavy build - gangly legs and barrel chest. Currently at 19% dead fat and a BMI of 22.8

According to trainer road which doesn't include 2 x road rides of 30k and 60k av 29.9kmph this week my TSS is 200.

Anything else I should add?

i know it's a old school question and it's certainly not the only predictor of anything important, but how many road miles (training, racing, commuting) have you done in 2014?

Like other, I'm trying to piece together the picture and find the root cause of your funk.

Kryton57

Year to date - I don't / can't commute - 1874km.

I just like to point out at this stage that on Sunday I rode mtb at Hell of the North Cotwolds. Compared to last year when I wasn't training, just riding but set PB's on the very similar Bucks Off Road Sportive, I posted pb's on 20km, 50km, 50m and 100k - the latter busting my pb by 24 mins. I felt very strong and passed many a rider on long climbs. That's significant as it shows the training has done something.

On a poorer note I reverted to Threshold as suggested and performed a 20 minute tests last week and posted 10% under my current FTP. I'd had 2 days rest and performed it at 6am with only a cereal bar at 5.30am which may be significant.

ollie51

I'd had 2 days rest and performed it at 6am with only a cereal bar at 5.30am which may be significant.

Have you ever performed well at the crack of dawn, having eaten only a cereal bar and had two days complete rest before? Honestly, that test was pointless and I suspect demoralising, no? Tests need to be done when you're going to do well, and preferably at the same time of day, same day of week each time. This means the results are more comparable. For me, all of my tests are done on a Friday afternoon. Always well fuelled, had an easy day before, good sleep and motivated. If I cannot satisfy those four conditions, I do not do the test.

Kryton57

It's a fair point...

slam that stem

If I may extrapolate Ollie51's point, it seems you're picking tell-tale signs out of the air (passing riders in a sportive, seeing positive looking power figures) rather than sticking to a very fixed protocol of baselining and controlled follow up testing.

I say this as someone who knows I might get more benefit from riding with power but knowing me, I'm a bit too loose or lazy to stick with protocols and training blocks (aka Joe Friel type structure).

Which leads me to ask; Krypton, have you had a look at any books like Friel's? If you have the inclination to train hard and you have some talent (both sound true) then maybe that's the key to structuring yourself.

Kryton57

Slam that stem - I'm just trying to show that something is working. But in essence I agree, and yes I have and hav read Friels MTB version of the book.

Indicative by the gap of postings in the thread was me re-reading some of Chris Carmichaels and Joe Friels advice about periodisation and training on limited time. Neither agree with 100% threshold for short circuit racing as you need the bursts or sprint power / to be able to have practised it at worst. But all agree on raising base endurance and based FTP.

However what I had chose to forget is the limited time aspect -specifically taking into account my very limited experience in road racing; what I was doing was expecting to do fairly well in not only my first races but every race. Obviously I lack the experience and so e fitness to do so.

What I should be doing as well as getting miles in my legs is targeting maybe 2 or 3 events only that I want to do well in and using other events as training races - Eg part of the learning curve - and periodising around those events not expecting good results every time.

Vis a vis slowly slowly catchy monkey.....

I've now done this. I've been declined from the RR on Sunday which was a target event, so have reverted to Threshold/riding outdoors. I'll be doing a crit at the end of the month and some of the mid week hillingdon or elv hog hill crits over the summer, but basically I'll restart an advanced sportive type plan in june with two events as the target- the RideLondon 100 where I'm seeking a sub 5.30 time, and the mtb Bontrager 24hr solo which is my first with a target of 20 laps (or more) ridden. This TR plan is mainly threshold and OU's indoors or out with the odd set of intervals thrown in, and is very close to the tctp I did last year which I believe gave me good results.

ollie51

Kryton57 wrote:

Indicative by the gap of postings in the thread was me re-reading some of Chris Carmichaels and Joe Friels advice about periodisation and training on limited time. Neither agree with 100% threshold for short circuit racing as you need the bursts or sprint power / to be able to have practised it at worst. But all agree on raising base endurance and based FTP.

Carmichael and Friel can only make generalisations about what athletes need to improve in a given type of racing. US crits are usually on car parks and such, which are generally more technical, the need for bursts/sprint power in lower level UK crit racing, particularly at Hog Hill is vastly overstated. Just had a look over a couple of powerfiles and that would suggest the same.

Remember the issue with your training before was not that you were doing too many interval sessions, it was that the efforts were too short. If you increase your threshold by 10% through 2x20s or whatever, not only will you feel more comfortable on the straights/hills but those 700-800 watt bursts out of corners will be less taxing. Of course one the other good ways of raising threshold power is 2-4 hour hard group rides. These in themselves will encompass sprints and hard hill efforts, they bring about a more polarised training approach by their very nature.

Keep focussed and keep plugging away, you'll get there. Keep racing too, it'll teach you things. Power meters are good for measuring progress and stuff, but it's not a competition of who has the highest FTP, but who can achieve the best results. Racing results will be the best tracker of your progress.

cycleclinic

Since January my traing (I do not have a coach and quite frankly I have no clue when it come to effective training) is to treat every ride like a training ride. I go out on a tuesday for a chain gang ride and that is fast ride with sprints up hills and a proper sprint finish, Wednesday night MTB ride on a single speed is just hard work when I push on the hills, Friday morning I do a 17 mile hilly ride in which every hill I push as hard as I can and now thursday are TT night and that is just one long interval and every week you just push a little harder to test your limits. Sunday's I either MTB race (and that is just lung busting) or do some other event and if none of that, a long fast group ride. In the last three months I have noticed a massive improvement in my ability to climb hills. I will see tomorrow if it enough I suspect I will get dropped in the race but three months ago I would not have even made part of a lap.

Keep training the more you do the longer you will be able to sustain burst of power. Just treat every hill you see as a chance to train. That will also teach you how to pace yourself up a hill so you can let your power output climb as you approach the crest rather than cook yourself half way up.

maryka

thecycleclinic wrote:

Since January my traing (I do not have a coach and quite frankly I have no clue when it come to effective training) is to treat every ride like a training ride. I go out on a tuesday for a chain gang ride and that is fast ride with sprints up hills and a proper sprint finish, Wednesday night MTB ride on a single speed is just hard work when I push on the hills, Friday morning I do a 17 mile hilly ride in which every hill I push as hard as I can and now thursday are TT night and that is just one long interval and every week you just push a little harder to test your limits. Sunday's I either MTB race (and that is just lung busting) or do some other event and if none of that, a long fast group ride. In the last three months I have noticed a massive improvement in my ability to climb hills. I will see tomorrow if it enough I suspect I will get dropped in the race but three months ago I would not have even made part of a lap.

Keep training the more you do the longer you will be able to sustain burst of power. Just treat every hill you see as a chance to train. That will also teach you how to pace yourself up a hill so you can let your power output climb as you approach the crest rather than cook yourself half way up.

All fine and well, but I find if I push myself hard on every single ride, I tend to start not enjoying it... but part of effective and personal training is learning what works for you.

The other thing is, constantly pushing yourself for the entire duration of every workout might mean you fall into the "too hard but not hard enough" trap -- i.e., you always train hard enough to feel like you worked hard, but never hard enough to actually improve your top end. Quality stuff like 5min Vo2max/hill repeats or 30sec anaerobic intervals have to be done with plenty of recovery between, and if your brain won't let you do anything but push hard between as well as during the intervals, you will never really hit the max you need during the "on" part of it. Great for TTing, all this "ABP" (always be pushing) riding, not always the best for road racing. YMMV of course!

cycleclinic

Maybe that comment above is why I find it hard to sprint but I can sustain a high constant effort for TT's. I do find even MTB racing my heart rate will be 155-165 bpm for the duration. Same in a TT and at the end I will be done for.

When I do training rides I do some of them always pushing but other I will push hard up a hill and recover and do it again in a completely unstructured untimed way. As I said I have no clue what I am doing but it is having an effect.

I have a funny feeling tomorrow like the OP I will be dropped as what I do is a constant effort not surges which is what happens in a race.

GGBiker

I've had the same problem, ftp and 5 min power is in the cat 3 ballpark according to the tables, my problem is when I look at 1 min power it is in the cat 5 to untrained area!

I have found difficulty matching but more importantly recovering from surges in cat 4 races, worst is on rolling courses with lots of short sharp efforts, after about 80% of the race I find I've burned all my matches.

Looking at it I've spent the past 6 months focusing on building ftp and endurance with barely a vo2 max effort/sprint done in that time.

It's a case of specificity, I have improved the areas I focused on but have made no progress in the shorter end of the power curve which is important for racing.

My TT times have improved a lot on the plus side and match those of some A3 riders .

cycleclinic

well I did manage to stay with the bunch today. doing quite well till a hole and bang bang yes both of them. The 13% hill got me but I just need to improve my 1 minute power and recovery times. So GGbiker I am in the same boat.

james_v

Came across this thread, realised I'd been cited as an example or at least the club rides I do ( by birdthom, my brother-in-law ) and that Krypton57 is a clubmate (Stan? We haven't met but I've seen your posts on the LP forum).

A couple of points I'd add to the advice already given (or emphasise if they've already been mentioned before)

Hog Hill is a HARD circuit to cut your teeth on, it's technically demanding with lots of twists and turns and the hoggenburg is leg-sapping. From what I heard the Eagle RC races rapidly got strung out with some very fast people pushing the pace (including LP's very own Jason Creswell) who rapidly moved up categories. If it gets strung out at HH and you are not in the first 20 or so riders you will never get back on unless you are so fit that you wouldn't need to be posting these questions anyway. So don't get demoralised! Staying with the bunch is not always that hard.

At Hog Hill, especially with a big field it's well worth finishing your warm-up early to get near the front of the grid, this alone may save you getting dropped early from the leading pack as you're not fighting like crazy from the word go. Flatter, less technically demanding courses like at MK bowl or Hillingdon will give you a chance to stay on longer and help you gain the experience needed to avoid unnecessarily expending energy as happens when you are not near the front.

I appreciate that you find it hard to get out on midweek rides, but of you can get out on the LP Tuesday and Thursday North London Hills rides they would be of enormous benefit, they are hard, but good fun. Also the Early Sunday ride - if you can keep up with this, you certainly have the legs to keep up with a 4th Cat race and it's just bunch riding skills and confidence that's lacking. There are plenty of people on these rides who race so they are also a good chance to ask for advice.

I should add that I'm no great expert - I've been riding for just over 2 years and am in a similar boat to you at 40 with a young child (and I'm an ex-mountain biker). I did a few races last year and haven't managed to fit in any in 2014 so far. That said, the racing I've done I've loved, and Hog Hill, though painful, is the most fun I've had on 2 wheels that didn't have a full-face helmet, body armour and ski-lift involved.

Good luck and hope to see you on a a club ride (or at a race) soon.

James

Kryton57

*waves at James*

Yes indeed - stan here. Thanks for the advice. A lot of what I'm going through has been a learning curve about road riding in general - you think you're fit, then you join a road club. You get on the clubs rides and after a while start mixing it wi the big boys back down the A1000 and think you improved - then you start racing...

Since posting this thread I've finished the training cycle I was in and have deferred to Threshold, less rest therefore an extra bike session and more time outside as recommended.

But also, I've ridden two mtb events - which has led me to be able measure myself against prior performance which I have experience of - and I've absolutely thrashed my former-self time, power on climbs and speed on the mtb - this includes a sub 5hr 100k in the Cotwolds. Also, my outside lunchtime rides have been completed at 30kmph averages inc. lights, roundabouts, traffic etc and I've pb'd all of the strava sections on climbs each time I've been out. In the world of strava the latest of those two rides was 42% Threshold and 42% Tempo so I'm working in the right zones.

This has proved to me that my strength and performance and mental tolerance to "the burn" has climbed as a result of my turbo training, so rather than be despondent just to take the time to "learn" road racing, keep riding/training and be less in a hurry/results focussed.

I've two crits next Sunday and Wednesday respectively, that latter at Hillingdon so i'll see how it goes.

jibberjim

Kryton57 wrote:

Also, my outside lunchtime rides have been completed at 30kmph averages inc. lights, roundabouts, traffic etc and I've pb'd all of the strava sections on climbs each time I've been out.

Not wanting to knock the confidence it's given, but the warm weather means speeds increase for the same effort, the air density is less so you go faster, it's why you can't read too much just into average speed changes, and why so many people get depressed about their performances as it heads to winter...

Kryton57

Normality I'd say that was a fair point, but yesterday it was raining and I was out on the winter Alu bike with lights and guards...

wallace_and_gromit

Somewhat related to this topic, what sort of performance for a flat 25 mile TT would be "good" for a typical 4th cat racer?

I'm guessing 66 minutes on a road bike with aerobars isn't the kind of performance to initiate the pre-emptive writing of victory speeches!

Thanks in advance.