Henao withdrawn from racing

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  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    mike6 wrote:
    I'm bore with speculation now, If he has a case to answer we will find out soon enough.

    The frustrating thing (particularly for those whose careers are at risk) is that we won't.
    JTL layoff - Sept, maybe hearing in May?; Rogers (bit different)- Dec - any timeframe?

    Lawyers must love the biopassport cases - very few precedents, technical arguments, probably lots of experts with different opinions.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    A line from the semi-new BBC comedy W1A:

    "This is like finding a spot on your whatsit. It's better to deal with it now rather than ignore it and see what happens"

    Pretty much sums up what Sky are doing.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,541
    Macaloon wrote:
    nic_77 wrote:
    Yeah, but what parameters? I test my blood "parameters".
    That's not the same as passport profiling.

    I don't disagree with you 8). It may be a worthless waste of time. If they were really serious they'd get riders to sign declarations.

    That made me laugh.

    I had also assumed that teams did a lot of internal blood testing in order to establish a rider's condition, their response to training and whether they need to rest. Ferrari used to do this for USPS. However, I think nic_77 is saying that all this can be established without going in to passport profiling level of detail.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Yeah I think they do that, but that's not the same as doing a blood passport check
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    nic_77 wrote:
    Yeah, but what parameters? I test my blood "parameters".
    That's not the same as passport profiling.

    I don't disagree with you 8). It may be a worthless waste of time. If they were really serious they'd get riders to sign declarations.

    That made me laugh.

    I had also assumed that teams did a lot of internal blood testing in order to establish a rider's condition, their response to training and whether they need to rest. Ferrari used to do this for USPS. However, I think nic_77 is saying that all this can be established without going in to passport profiling level of detail.

    Hardly a recommendation!
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.
    It's not a question of being able to afford it. It's about whether it's a worthwhile use of resources to replicate a job that is already being done.
    Bear in mind they are analysing the riders' daily performance data.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ddraver has had enough and just tweeted Ms Millar for clarification

    jolly good
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.

    But is this actually the case? There seems to be confusion between some blood monitoring and undertaking a full passport level in-house testing regime. My understanding is that Sky don't do the latter and Garmin do something but probably the former which Sky (and others) may also do. People seem to be comparing apples with oranges here.

    I would also be surprised if any team truly wishing to be clean isn't undertaking some in house testing. As Sky are paying someone to take an apparently closer look at the official testing results than the UCI do it would be odd to not do their own in-house testing to some degree as it is would be easier* to undertake further testing of anomalies they uncover themselves than anything the UCI detects.

    * Easier to keep quiet while verifying the likely cause of the anomaly.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    RichN95 wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.
    It's not a question of being able to afford it. It's about whether it's a worthwhile use of resources to replicate a job that is already being done.

    And my only beef, at this point, is to express incredulity that the team relies on an 'evolving' system to deter riders from causing serious damage to the sponsor's brand name. Hardly covering all the bases or going the extra mile.

    Granted, there may be no additional deterrent - if you're prepared to run the risk of passport tests, you're likely to chance your arm with internal tests - but that's an incredibly sophisticated argument to get past such a brand-aware corporation. So I feel I'm missing something. Perhaps a brain? Definitely a heart...
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Macaloon wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.
    It's not a question of being able to afford it. It's about whether it's a worthwhile use of resources to replicate a job that is already being done.

    And my only beef, at this point, is to express incredulity that the team relies on an 'evolving' system to deter riders from causing serious damage to the sponsor's brand name. Hardly covering all the bases or going the extra mile.

    Granted, there may be no additional deterrent - if you're prepared to run the risk of passport tests, you're likely to chance your arm with internal tests - but that's an incredibly sophisticated argument to get past such a brand-aware corporation. So I feel I'm missing something. Perhaps a brain? Definitely a heart...
    They look at the power files of every session of every rider. They don't have to fly people around the world to collect them. If a rider suddenly starts doing his 400w for half an hour drill at 20bpm lower than he has ever done previously that's probably a better indicator of dodginess than a one off blood test.
    Riders dope to improve performance. So if they are doping it will show in their performance.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    ddraver has had enough and just tweeted Ms Millar for clarification

    jolly good

    Maybe he can verify with Vaughters whether the testing they do is to the full level of that undertaken officially for the bio passport too?
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    RichN95 wrote:
    They look at the power files of every session of every rider. They don't have to fly people around the world to collect them. If a rider suddenly starts doing his 400w for half an hour drill at 20bpm lower than he has ever done previously that's probably a better indicator of dodginess than a one off blood test.
    Riders dope to improve performance. So if they are doping it will show in their performance.

    Good points. And I'm not suggesting that any team with Colombian or African riders need to dedicate staff to remote testing.

    As for the power file analysis, why did this method not flag JTL before APMU? (Presumably his 400W drill would be 20bpm higher?)
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,541
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.

    Just an aside, but if I were to calculate your Skymocrit, I would include 5ky in the search terms.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.

    Just an aside, but if I were to calculate your Skymocrit, I would include 5ky in the search terms.


    Its now reached Pas Normal status
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Macaloon wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    They look at the power files of every session of every rider. They don't have to fly people around the world to collect them. If a rider suddenly starts doing his 400w for half an hour drill at 20bpm lower than he has ever done previously that's probably a better indicator of dodginess than a one off blood test.
    Riders dope to improve performance. So if they are doping it will show in their performance.

    Good points. And I'm not suggesting that any team with Colombian or African riders need to dedicate staff to remote testing.

    As for the power file analysis, why did this method not flag JTL before APMU? (Presumably his 400W drill would be 20bpm higher?)
    Because he was riding for a continental team that probably didn't bother with such things. Did he even train with a power meter?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    RichN95 wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    They look at the power files of every session of every rider. They don't have to fly people around the world to collect them. If a rider suddenly starts doing his 400w for half an hour drill at 20bpm lower than he has ever done previously that's probably a better indicator of dodginess than a one off blood test.
    Riders dope to improve performance. So if they are doping it will show in their performance.

    Good points. And I'm not suggesting that any team with Colombian or African riders need to dedicate staff to remote testing.

    As for the power file analysis, why did this method not flag JTL before APMU? (Presumably his 400W drill would be 20bpm higher?)
    Because he was riding for a continental team that probably didn't bother with such things. Did he even train with a power meter?


    Nope - according to JTL.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Copious references to the forbidden word

    One's values should be reported to the forum through a weekly signature update. Perhaps the 'review post feature' slayer can help with some automation?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Only medium/low budget teams like Garmin can afford to internally monitor rider's blood parameters? I see.

    Edit to erect nuttershield - There may be plenty of very good reasons why 5ky either don't monitor bloods - or much more likely IMO don't talk about monitoring. Politically I don't see how DB can defend a 'trusted, but not verified' position with the sponsor.

    Just an aside, but if I were to calculate your Skymocrit, I would include 5ky in the search terms.

    He's using a masking agent
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    He's using a masking agent

    It's called :lol::lol::lol:
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,538
    Macaloon wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    He's using a masking agent

    It's called :lol::lol::lol:

    Rumbled.

    +ve test for 5ky

    Is it on the banned list?
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    By way of swinging past the topic, the Velorooms theory that 'Team ProCycling' want to make sure the passport won't assume an altitude distorted hormone level (the 'new' element added to the tests) as Sergio's baseline, fits well with what we know so far.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited March 2014
    @dimspace tweeted a pretty decent summary of the hypothesis last night

    Not tin foil hat stuff

    Someone here had also mentioned yday the new steroidal module intro'd to the ABP in Jan, and speculated that the 'new WADA-accredited OOC tests' referred to in Sky's statement related to that - to produce control markers for the new module. Experience from the JTL case where his first test from the Sep '12 acted as control markers for his bio passport the UCI built up over the next 5 months, is the 'suspicious' one, highlights the criticality of those control markers being assessed in the correct way.
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    the ultimate irony now is that steps taken to iradicate and police doping are seized upon by the conspiracists. Hopefully if a few more teams make sure their work in this area is in the public domain then there will be less ove-reaction.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    @dimspace tweeted a pretty decent summary of the hypothesis last night

    Not tin foil hat stuff

    Someone here had also mentioned yday the new steroidal module intro'd to the ABP in Jan, and speculated that the 'new WADA-accredited OOC tests' referred to in Sky's statement related to that - to produce control markers for the new module. Experience from the JTL case where his first test from the Sep '12 acted as control markers for his bio passport the UCI built up over the next 5 months, is the 'suspicious' one, highlights the criticality of those control markers being assessed in the correct way.
    We should bear in mind though that that hypothesis has been arrived at by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    RichN95 wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    @dimspace tweeted a pretty decent summary of the hypothesis last night

    Not tin foil hat stuff

    Someone here had also mentioned yday the new steroidal module intro'd to the ABP in Jan, and speculated that the 'new WADA-accredited OOC tests' referred to in Sky's statement related to that - to produce control markers for the new module. Experience from the JTL case where his first test from the Sep '12 acted as control markers for his bio passport the UCI built up over the next 5 months, is the 'suspicious' one, highlights the criticality of those control markers being assessed in the correct way.
    We should bear in mind though that that hypothesis has been arrived at by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.


    GOOD POINT

    :wink:
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    RichN95 wrote:
    We should bear in mind though that that hypothesis has been arrived at by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    What with this and missing planes I've had my fill of conspiracy hypothesists (I won't give them the honour of calling them theorists) for one week.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Above The Cows wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    We should bear in mind though that that hypothesis has been arrived at by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    What with this and missing planes I've had my fill of conspiracy hypothesists (I won't give them the honour of calling them theorists) for one week.


    They could merge into one giant integrated conspiracy theory
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    ^ :shock: *shudders* :shock:
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    RichN95 wrote:
    They look at the power files of every session of every rider. They don't have to fly people around the world to collect them. If a rider suddenly starts doing his 400w for half an hour drill at 20bpm lower than he has ever done previously that's probably a better indicator of dodginess than a one off blood test.
    Riders dope to improve performance. So if they are doping it will show in their performance.

    Not sure it necessarily follows that you can pick things up through that data - if they're training properly, this should also show in their performance. Otherwise why bother? As a terrible aside, the thought occurs that Twitter would be full of the sort of photos only previously seen in Cippolini's second week performance 'in' the TdF. If you were going to dope these days, presumably you'd taper it to look at least semi-natural?

    I'm not suggesting this has happened, just that I'm not sure anyone does the incredibly easy to spot stuff any more.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships

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