Henao withdrawn from racing

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    RichN95 wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Sorry if some people see this as being a Sky hater - I just think that if you take their statement at face value their strategy is a poor one. Surely the proper course of action is to provide the relevant evidence to the relevant authorities and then support the rider in question until such time as they are cleared or found guilty ?
    But the relevant authorities haven't started a case for him to be cleared from or found guilty of. It's just an internal enquiry.
    sjmclean wrote:

    But say they continue to support him, he rides, wins a couple of races, a Gt even then is found guilty, we have to strip him of the results and then have meaningless races with empty winners. Look at Schleck with Contador.

    Imo I think when something is raised the rider should be automatically suspended from the UCI.

    There is no case against him to be found guilty of. It's just Sky looking for more information.


    What is it about this that people find so difficult to understand?

    You've fallen for PR, if Sky have noticed this irregularity in a drug test, then the UCI will have an I'm sure they will have or will be in touch soon.

    I'm not saying he's done anything yet, but if it is big enough for Sky to suspend him and get independent test carried our, all in public knowledge, there must be something serious going on.

    My comment you have quoted is a general one to cycling.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Funny that the UCI have said they hadnt then isnt it...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    sjmclean wrote:
    You've fallen for PR, if Sky have noticed this irregularity in a drug test, then the UCI will have an I'm sure they will have or will be in touch soon.
    Are you sure? What is the irregularity, then? You must know if you are sure they would take action.
    Or it just your assumption? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. You're jumping about three steps ahead and saying that Sky should react to what you think will happen (based on no actual information).
    Sky only have about 27 riders to worry about and can take the time and money to look at each one in more detail, with a lower threshold of suspicion, than a governing body looking out for around 1000 riders. Plus Sky are little more paranoid in the wake of Tiernan-Locke
    sjmclean wrote:
    I'm not saying he's done anything yet, but if it is big enough for Sky to suspend him and get independent test carried our, all in public knowledge, there must be something serious going on.
    They haven't suspended him. They just not picking him for races. Largely because he's going to preoccupied doing these tests.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    That the UCI was yet to speak on the test doesn't mean anything. Who knows how long it would take an anomalous result to trigger a passport chat? JTL Rode for a year after the dodgy result.

    It makes sense that subsequently the team started reviewing the tests themselves to avoid a repeat.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    Macaloon wrote:
    That the UCI was yet to speak on the test doesn't mean anything. Who knows how long it would take an anomalous result to trigger a passport chat? JTL Rode for a year after the dodgy result.

    It makes sense to that the team subsequently started reviewing the tests themselves to avoid a repeat.

    Isn't one line of thought around JTL that it was riding clean for a year (and achieving the square root of bugger all) that made his previous test results look dodgy? In that case, the delay becomes explicable. I'd love to know what's actually causing concern in the Henao case, but (understandably, given that he's not being fingered for anything yet) we're probably not going to get it for a while - if ever.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    Talking of JTL, did anyone else see the tweet from Richard Moore today, saying that his case will be heard within the next month?

    I'd put it in the JTL thread but it got locked after an intervention from the grocer's apprentice.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    That the UCI was yet to speak on the test doesn't mean anything. Who knows how long it would take an anomalous result to trigger a passport chat? JTL Rode for a year after the dodgy result.

    It makes sense to that the team subsequently started reviewing the tests themselves to avoid a repeat.

    Isn't one line of thought around JTL that it was riding clean for a year (and achieving the square root of bugger all) that made his previous test results look dodgy? In that case, the delay becomes explicable. I'd love to know what's actually causing concern in the Henao case, but (understandably, given that he's not being fingered for anything yet) we're probably not going to get it for a while - if ever.

    I'm just pointing out that the anomaly in JTL's passport happened a year before his case opened. But who knows if that's even a question in this case?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    RichN95 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    You've fallen for PR, if Sky have noticed this irregularity in a drug test, then the UCI will have an I'm sure they will have or will be in touch soon.
    Are you sure? What is the irregularity, then? You must know if you are sure they would take action.
    Or it just your assumption? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. You're jumping about three steps ahead and saying that Sky should react to what you think will happen (based on no actual information).
    Sky only have about 27 riders to worry about and can take the time and money to look at each one in more detail, with a lower threshold of suspicion, than a governing body looking out for around 1000 riders. Plus Sky are little more paranoid in the wake of Tiernan-Locke
    sjmclean wrote:
    I'm not saying he's done anything yet, but if it is big enough for Sky to suspend him and get independent test carried our, all in public knowledge, there must be something serious going on.
    They haven't suspended him. They just not picking him for races. Largely because he's going to preoccupied doing these tests.


    With respect you must be the only person that read the Sky press release and didn't interpret it as him being suspended due to an anomaly that pointed to a possible doping offence.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    RichN95 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    You've fallen for PR, if Sky have noticed this irregularity in a drug test, then the UCI will have an I'm sure they will have or will be in touch soon.
    Are you sure? What is the irregularity, then? You must know if you are sure they would take action.
    Or it just your assumption? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. You're jumping about three steps ahead and saying that Sky should react to what you think will happen (based on no actual information).
    Sky only have about 27 riders to worry about and can take the time and money to look at each one in more detail, with a lower threshold of suspicion, than a governing body looking out for around 1000 riders. Plus Sky are little more paranoid in the wake of Tiernan-Locke
    sjmclean wrote:
    I'm not saying he's done anything yet, but if it is big enough for Sky to suspend him and get independent test carried our, all in public knowledge, there must be something serious going on.
    They haven't suspended him. They just not picking him for races. Largely because he's going to preoccupied doing these tests.

    It is my assumption, but having followed cycling I feel people can make an assumption from an educated position. Altitude training is used to increase the number of red blood cells (hemocrit is the reading refered to), there has been many chemicals used for this purpose over the years. These chemicals are banned, they would show an irregularity in a doping test (the questions raised by experts). If you look the UCI have the ability for a higher level in blood of these values which are allowed for after extra testing: see Charlie Weegulis for example.

    So from these peices of information I can deduce from the Sky statement, that it is an issue with Sergios hemocrit. Now neither Sky or me are saying Sergio has been up to anything untoward, but they are saying there is a irregularity worth investigating.

    In terms of suspension this is as close as a team can come to suspending a rider, they can't ban him from riding his bike altogether but they can remove him from racing.

    I have worked closely on studies on the perception of words and tone in speech when making statements, the use of the word "suspension" would automatically implies guilt, so in order to avoid this they have used the phrase "removed from race program." That is quite evident to me.

    Now if they were just carrying out routine testing on a rider, why would they release a statement? Luke Rowe (I think) posted a picture a while back of a turbo, saying he was going through some team testing, Sky didn't release a statement about this, did they? Of course not, this is PR men (Fran Millar?) preparing a preemptive strike on the media, if you release it first: it shows you aren't hiding anything, which we all know would be bad.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    andyp wrote:
    Talking of JTL, did anyone else see the tweet from Richard Moore today, saying that his case will be heard within the next month?

    I'd put it in the JTL thread but it got locked after an intervention from the grocer's apprentice.

    Story up on the Telegraph website now. Andy Parkinson commented on the case, apparently.
    Speaking at the Tackling Doping in Sport conference at Wembley on Wednesday , Parkinson said that was now close to being heard. “Imminently,” Parkinson said when asked. “Months, a month or so. Clearly the issue with that case is that it was in the public domain earlier than was ideal, and earlier than we put out a notice of charge.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    Macaloon wrote:
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    That the UCI was yet to speak on the test doesn't mean anything. Who knows how long it would take an anomalous result to trigger a passport chat? JTL Rode for a year after the dodgy result.

    It makes sense to that the team subsequently started reviewing the tests themselves to avoid a repeat.

    Isn't one line of thought around JTL that it was riding clean for a year (and achieving the square root of bugger all) that made his previous test results look dodgy? In that case, the delay becomes explicable. I'd love to know what's actually causing concern in the Henao case, but (understandably, given that he's not being fingered for anything yet) we're probably not going to get it for a while - if ever.

    I'm just pointing out that the anomaly in JTL's passport happened a year before his case opened. But who knows if that's even a question in this case?

    Sorry - wasn't trying to read anything more into your comment than was there - just that if it was a further year of data that made those results stand out, a delay of a year becomes self-explanatory. As you say, there are frequently months before a doping charge is brought - the lack of one isn't necessarily evidence of anything.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Sorry - wasn't trying to read anything more into your comment than was there - just that if it was a further year of data that made those results stand out, a delay of a year becomes self-explanatory. As you say, there are frequently months before a doping charge is brought - the lack of one isn't necessarily evidence of anything.

    That was just me trying to whistle past this case pretending not to be mildly abscessed with it.

    OT Entirely civilized chat almost completely about doping. Not normal.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Someone give me a good reason not to lock this.
    _
  • LutherB
    LutherB Posts: 544
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Someone give me a good reason not to lock this.

    It's settled down into good discussion now
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    LutherB wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Someone give me a good reason not to lock this.

    It's settled down into good discussion now


    This. It's calmed down a lot.
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    I missed the middle, seems quite civilised at the moment. So to get the record straight it looks like sky are playing it super cautious here in case anything comes out as being dodgy at a later date but at present believe it's to do with altitude?

    They seem to have handled it pretty well at the moment from what I can see.
    Road
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  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Someone give me a good reason not to lock this.

    Because you should be addressing the root cause.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    Macaloon wrote:
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Sorry - wasn't trying to read anything more into your comment than was there - just that if it was a further year of data that made those results stand out, a delay of a year becomes self-explanatory. As you say, there are frequently months before a doping charge is brought - the lack of one isn't necessarily evidence of anything.

    That was just me trying to whistle past this case pretending not to be mildly abscessed with it.

    OT Entirely civilized chat almost completely about doping. Not normal.

    Probably proof that half the posters before were taking something - now they're not nobody has the energy to attack any more. This is proof that we're now all clean. I think that's how the argument runs, anyway...

    Meanwhile, I'm not sure how much further anyone can get with the Henao case without more evidence leaking out - there's lots of speculation, but without even knowing why there was some concern it's impossible to say if Sky are being unusually proactive, damagingly slow to react, or just faced with a rider doing something really unexpected.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Nerd I may be but I'd welcome more discussion on how and why humans have evolved differing methods of dealing with living at altitude and how that would affect them in terms of sports performance...

    I think we ve done the Sky bashing point enough though...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    ddraver wrote:
    Nerd I may be but I'd welcome more discussion on how and why humans have evolved differing methods of dealing with living at altitude and how that would affect them in terms of sports performance...

    I wonder how much actual data there is, given that many sports have been dominated by professionals from more-developed countries with (presuming the cycling experience was repeated across other sports) access to pharmaceutical methods of improving performance? I suppose there might be things we'd expect to see, all other things being equal, but do genuinely suspect that most of the predictions would come from first principles rather than experimental data.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Well according to the article someone posted way upthread (in the before time), the answer is really very little.

    Curium pointed out that the vast majority of research is done on white Caucasian males. Data on the physiology of Africans/African-Americans/Asians etc is actually quite sparse.

    Slightly back on topic but the research is thin enough that the tests in the bio passport could actually be inappropriate for colombians or anyone else not a W European Male...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    ddraver wrote:
    Nerd I may be but I'd welcome more discussion on how and why humans have evolved differing methods of dealing with living at altitude and how that would affect them in terms of sports performance...
    How and why - well convergent (and parallel) evolution are well understood aspects of evolutionary theory. Those ideas are concerned with common solutions/traits evolving across species with different lineage, but in principle there is no reason why isolated human populations would not be influenced by the same processes.

    Which one is best? Hmm. FIGHT. :mrgreen:
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    Is that likely to be a problem with the tests or just the parameters they use to flag natural variability? I honestly don't know enough about how the passport system is supposed to work to know if it expects to see people fluctuate around a mean value, or to see levels respond to racing (or other events) in a certain way - analogous to some tests for EPO relying on ratios of other blood components to indicate that things aren't happening in the 'normal' sequence.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    I need more detail Daz!

    (I know I know, read The Sports Gene! ;) )
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    ddraver wrote:
    Nerd I may be but I'd welcome more discussion on how and why humans have evolved differing methods of dealing with living at altitude and how that would affect them in terms of sports performance...
    Giving a brief overview of the chapter in The Sports Gene, Epstein talks about two ethnic groups in the Ethiopian highlands - the Amhara and the Oromo.

    The Amhara have been at altitude for a few millennia. They have blood values (like hemaglobin) which are fairly average. However, what they have evolved is an incredibly fast and efficient mechanism for passing oxygen from the lungs to the blood.

    By contrast, the Oromo only moved to altitude about 500 years ago. They exhibit high hemaglobin counts - at altitude. In fact their hemaglobin varies considerably according to their altitude. They are what Epstein calls 'altitude responders'. Interestingly, with regard to Henao, the Andeans, who have moved to altitude centuries not millennia ago, have the same traits as the Oromo.

    As for athletic performance, most top Ethiopian runners are Oromo. (And similarly the dominant Kenyan Kalenjin moved to altitude in the same timeframe).

    As for the Nepalese - they have ludicrous levels of nitrous oxide in their blood - real freakish X-Men stuff.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    You've fallen for PR, if Sky have noticed this irregularity in a drug test, then the UCI will have an I'm sure they will have or will be in touch soon.
    Are you sure? What is the irregularity, then? You must know if you are sure they would take action.
    Or it just your assumption? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. You're jumping about three steps ahead and saying that Sky should react to what you think will happen (based on no actual information).
    Sky only have about 27 riders to worry about and can take the time and money to look at each one in more detail, with a lower threshold of suspicion, than a governing body looking out for around 1000 riders. Plus Sky are little more paranoid in the wake of Tiernan-Locke
    sjmclean wrote:
    I'm not saying he's done anything yet, but if it is big enough for Sky to suspend him and get independent test carried our, all in public knowledge, there must be something serious going on.
    They haven't suspended him. They just not picking him for races. Largely because he's going to preoccupied doing these tests.


    With respect you must be the only person that read the Sky press release and didn't interpret it as him being suspended due to an anomaly that pointed to a possible doping offence.

    I read it that way too. Basically, they've sent him back to enable testing and therefore he's been pulled from races as he can't be in two places at once. They seemed as close as they reasonably could to saying 'we don't think he's done anything wrong' in the circumstances.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    RichN95 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Nerd I may be but I'd welcome more discussion on how and why humans have evolved differing methods of dealing with living at altitude and how that would affect them in terms of sports performance...
    Giving a brief overview of the chapter in The Sports Gene, Epstein talks about two ethnic groups in the Ethiopian highlands - the Amhara and the Oromo.

    The Amhara have been at altitude for a few millennia. They have blood values (like hemaglobin) which are fairly average. However, what they have evolved is an incredibly fast and efficient mechanism for passing oxygen from the lungs to the blood.

    By contrast, the Oromo only moved to altitude about 500 years ago. They exhibit high hemaglobin counts - at altitude. In fact their hemaglobin varies considerably according to their altitude. They are what Epstein calls 'altitude responders'. Interestingly, with regard to Henao, the Andeans, who have moved to altitude centuries not millennia ago, have the same traits as the Oromo.

    As for athletic performance, most top Ethiopian runners are Oromo. (And similarly the dominant Kenyan Kalenjin moved to altitude in the same timeframe).

    As for the Nepalese - they have ludicrous levels of nitrous oxide in their blood - real freakish X-Men stuff.

    So if that stacks up and applies more widely, given long enough to evolve alternative strategies evolution prefers not to raise the haemoglobin count? That figures - if high haemoglobin levels came without cost we'd all have higher levels, and we know the stories of people having to wake up regularly to get blood moving again. I suppose it also suggests that the other evolutionary solutions either don't appear to have a benefit at lower altitudes or are accompanied by other physiological changes that aren't conducive to athletic ability (shorter stature, perhaps, as a response to more variable food supply?)
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    So does the heamoglobin of the Oromo or Andeans return to normal if an individual lives at sea level for a time? ie is the high heamoglobin level preferentially selected for..?

    That would be interesting because it would suggest that Henao's blood values WOULD vary significantly and differently from a more "normal" endurance athlete
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    If you had similar offers from Sky and say Movi or BMC would you sign for Sky? If Henao has done nothing wrong Sky's pretty much fingered him as at least suspicious. Regardless of what they've said, they knew how it would be interpreted, and what most people would think. I'm not sure I like the playing this out in public. I wonder why they didn't just play the 'injury' card the way football clubs do when players have off the pitch issues. Makes you wonder whether this would be a big negative for riders incentive to sign in terms of the offers they may make.

    Edit: Just read that Gazzetta broke the story in Italy and then Sky responded. So I'll ignore myself.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    dougzz wrote:
    If you had similar offers from Sky and say Movi or BMC would you sign for Sky? If Henao has done nothing wrong Sky's pretty much fingered him as at least suspicious. Regardless of what they've said, they knew how it would be interpreted, and what most people would think. I'm not sure I like the playing this out in public. I wonder why they didn't just play the 'injury' card the way football clubs do when players have off the pitch issues. Makes you wonder whether this would be a big negative for riders incentive to sign in terms of the offers they may make.

    Edit: Just read that Gazzetta broke the story in Italy and then Sky responded. So I'll ignore myself.


    Henao's agent saw fit (for reasons unknown as yet) to talk to Gazzetta

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