Henao withdrawn from racing

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  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    sjmclean wrote:
    Teams can't use needles as well, surely taking blood to do bio passport tests would be in breech of this rule.


    The UCI No-Needles policy allows for needle usage under certain circumstances. Besides its more about the use of needles to put stuff into the body, rather than extracting blood for testing purposes.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Teams can't use needles as well, surely taking blood to do bio passport tests would be in breech of this rule.


    The UCI No-Needles policy allows for needle usage under certain circumstances. Besides its more about the use of needles to put stuff into the body, rather than extracting blood for testing purposes.

    My understanding was, it needed permission every time you wanted to use one.
  • Essex Rouleur
    Essex Rouleur Posts: 98
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
    I dunno, maybe if there was a thread about it in BR we could read it and find out ;-)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
    The latter. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of the former.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    sjmclean wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Teams can't use needles as well, surely taking blood to do bio passport tests would be in breech of this rule.


    The UCI No-Needles policy allows for needle usage under certain circumstances. Besides its more about the use of needles to put stuff into the body, rather than extracting blood for testing purposes.

    My understanding was, it needed permission every time you wanted to use one.


    Depends. UCI have been making adjustments to the original 2011 policy, eg now you dont need to report injections if they're for vaccinations.

    But again, its more about restrictions on the use of needles to infuse.
  • Essex Rouleur
    Essex Rouleur Posts: 98
    RichN95 wrote:
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
    The latter. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of the former.


    Thanks. I'll keep and open mind then.

    On another note, whats happened to JTL lately? i've not kept up with that news.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,163
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
    The latter. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of the former.


    Thanks. I'll keep and open mind then.

    On another note, whats happened to JTL lately? i've not kept up with that news.

    Covered above - hearing due 'soon' whatever that means!
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    By the end of May apparently.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Teams can't use needles as well, surely taking blood to do bio passport tests would be in breech of this rule.


    The UCI No-Needles policy allows for needle usage under certain circumstances. Besides its more about the use of needles to put stuff into the body, rather than extracting blood for testing purposes.

    My understanding was, it needed permission every time you wanted to use one.


    Depends. UCI have been making adjustments to the original 2011 policy, eg now you dont need to report injections if they're for vaccinations.

    But again, its more about restrictions on the use of needles to infuse.


    Its very laudable but how would the UCI know if the puncture mark in the skin had been used to infuse or extract?
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    r0bh wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    I'm not really interested in comparisons with other teams. I thought the idea of Sky was to take a fresh look at traditional practices. The discovery ( :D ) that the team does less internal testing than Garmin was a genuine surprise to me. And given the general assumption around (see above posts) that these tests could have been internal it appears I'm not alone.

    Do you have a source for this? Do you know what internal testing Garmin do these days? Or what Sky do?

    I was being a trifle facetious myself, relying on ddravers emphatic denial that Sky do any internal dope testing, and the Garmin Wiki. Think you'd also find plenty of JV interviews where he talks about testing his riders. Garmin also seem to have the only JTL blood test pre Sky? I have no knowledge about current practice.

    As I said previously, there may be no point in conducing internal tests - what use is a positive? Maybe Garmin had to do it to get sponsors?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Essex Rouleur wrote:
    Only just saw this in the Metro paper this morning.

    So has Henao been on the sauce or are they pulling him just to check? :?:
    The latter. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of the former.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Oh for crying out loud cheer up will you...

    eeyore-1.gif

    Edit - Maca, not Rich...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Some really good debate on this thread now, thanks. I'll be interested to see the cycling inquisitions take on this, and sports scientists, who when not getting dragged into power data debate is usually pretty good.

    As to whether Sky conduct their own blood tests, there are a couple of points. Firstly, if they do then it's highly unlikely that even they can stretch to ooc testing all round the world. More likely they to testing during training. Secondly, if they do have their own tests then it's unlikely these are of much use to the bio passport bods, riders would be aware of when they were going to be tested and could get their values balanced beforehand. Lastly, in football it was actually banned for teams to take their own drug tests, as it was reckoned they would be able to cover up doping by monitoring their athletes.

    It's also worth noting that the tests Sky reviewed wouldn't necessarily have been reviewed by any other human eye before Sky brought it up. If the results weren't strong enough to trigger the flagging software then they could have gone unnoticed otherwise.

    Just quoting an example post speculating about "Sky conduct their own blood tests". But if I'm the only one who assumed they were keeping an eye on riders' compliance. more fool me. Carry on.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    edited March 2014
    There are blood tests and then there are WADA Accredited, stand up in court/CAS, this is positive or negative, blood and urine tests.

    Being facetious again but if Dr Ferrai had taken a blood sample from Lance Armstrong and said it was clean would you have trusted that?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Macaloon wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    I'm not really interested in comparisons with other teams. I thought the idea of Sky was to take a fresh look at traditional practices. The discovery ( :D ) that the team does less internal testing than Garmin was a genuine surprise to me. And given the general assumption around (see above posts) that these tests could have been internal it appears I'm not alone.

    Do you have a source for this? Do you know what internal testing Garmin do these days? Or what Sky do?

    I was being a trifle facetious myself, relying on ddravers emphatic denial that Sky do any internal dope testing, and the Garmin Wiki. Think you'd also find plenty of JV interviews where he talks about testing his riders. Garmin also seem to have the only JTL blood test pre Sky? I have no knowledge about current practice.

    As I said previously, there may be no point in conducing internal tests - what use is a positive? Maybe Garmin had to do it to get sponsors?


    Garmin signed up with ACE to run the testing in early '08 (Cuddly Bob used ACE too), and then ACE went bust in the fall of the same year. UCI rolled out the bio passport that year, and I thought Garmin then relied on that, post-ACE.

    Happy to be wrong, though*



    *utter lie
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,538
    Macaloon wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Some really good debate on this thread now, thanks. I'll be interested to see the cycling inquisitions take on this, and sports scientists, who when not getting dragged into power data debate is usually pretty good.

    As to whether Sky conduct their own blood tests, there are a couple of points. Firstly, if they do then it's highly unlikely that even they can stretch to ooc testing all round the world. More likely they to testing during training. Secondly, if they do have their own tests then it's unlikely these are of much use to the bio passport bods, riders would be aware of when they were going to be tested and could get their values balanced beforehand. Lastly, in football it was actually banned for teams to take their own drug tests, as it was reckoned they would be able to cover up doping by monitoring their athletes.

    It's also worth noting that the tests Sky reviewed wouldn't necessarily have been reviewed by any other human eye before Sky brought it up. If the results weren't strong enough to trigger the flagging software then they could have gone unnoticed otherwise.

    Just quoting an example post speculating about "Sky conduct their own blood tests". But if I'm the only one who assumed they were keeping an eye on riders' compliance. more fool me. Carry on.

    Chill fella, I hadn't given it any thought before today, but if I had then I would probably have assumed they did some of their own testing as well.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    mike6 wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Teams can't use needles as well, surely taking blood to do bio passport tests would be in breech of this rule.


    The UCI No-Needles policy allows for needle usage under certain circumstances. Besides its more about the use of needles to put stuff into the body, rather than extracting blood for testing purposes.

    My understanding was, it needed permission every time you wanted to use one.


    Depends. UCI have been making adjustments to the original 2011 policy, eg now you dont need to report injections if they're for vaccinations.

    But again, its more about restrictions on the use of needles to infuse.


    Its very laudable but how would the UCI know if the puncture mark in the skin had been used to infuse or extract?


    UCI arent hauling riders up for random strip searches to physically examining them for puncture marks. It's supposed to be self-policing. The UCI issue their regs - some of 'em eg min bike weight, they'll test compliance by pulling bikes for weigh-ins at races. But others - like applying for TUEs, no-needles etc - are laid down for teams to comply with, and punative action taken, I guess, in the event of non-compliance emerging through investigations etc.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    ddraver wrote:
    There are blood tests and then there are WADA Accredited, stand up in court/CAS, this is positive or negative, blood and urine tests.
    Right, I'm sure all teams are doing routine health checks which involve collecting* blood. Even something like a VO2 max / lactate threshold test will usually involve blood sampling. Of course we could spend some time debating whether Sky do these tests...

    Edit: *Note 'collecting' in this context may just be a pin-prick for the purposes of a transient test, rather than full examination and storage etc.
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    I think the no needle policy came in more as a way of trying to change the culture rather than as a rule to be rigourously enforced. Riders were routinely given legitimate injections and honest riders accepted it, but it made the move to banned injections much easier to make. It was more about removing the paths to proper doping than the injections themselves.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Fran Millar ‏@franmillar
    You know that thing when people constantly tweet things that are not true and claim they're facts? Funny right? No sorry libel. I mean libel

    She's been laying the smack down on the twaliban too, worth a look...

    Still getting the nonsense about a VO2 test from Karol and his followers...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    Chill fella, I hadn't given it any thought before today, but if I had then I would probably have assumed they did some of their own testing as well.

    I must admit, I'd have assumed that they were too, although probably not in a comprehensive kind of way. Given that WADA passport results seem to be shared freely with the team, however, it now seems harder to come up with reasons why they'd make the investment - unless the passport system doesn't actually provide enough data points to be useful?
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    ‏@jazzporridge 4h
    @Vaughters Quick ? if I may for a forum project :) Does Garmin routinely test riders' blood params in addition to indie BP test? Thanks

    Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 9m
    @jazzporridge Yes. Absolutely.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    Chill fella, I hadn't given it any thought before today, but if I had then I would probably have assumed they did some of their own testing as well.

    I must admit, I'd have assumed that they were too, although probably not in a comprehensive kind of way. Given that WADA passport results seem to be shared freely with the team, however, it now seems harder to come up with reasons why they'd make the investment - unless the passport system doesn't actually provide enough data points to be useful?
    The two reasons they may do it themselves is that they want more data or that they want it sooner.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    I'm bore with speculation now, If he has a case to answer we will find out soon enough.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    Macaloon wrote:
    ‏@jazzporridge 4h
    @Vaughters Quick ? if I may for a forum project :) Does Garmin routinely test riders' blood params in addition to indie BP test? Thanks

    Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 9m
    @jazzporridge Yes. Absolutely.

    Yeah, but what parameters? I test my blood "parameters".
    That's not the same as passport profiling.
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  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Some excellent analysis by forumites on this thread. Chapeau, it has made for good and informed reading.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    UCI statement:

    http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDe ... LangId%3D1
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    nic_77 wrote:
    Yeah, but what parameters? I test my blood "parameters".
    That's not the same as passport profiling.

    I don't disagree with you 8). It may be a worthless waste of time. If they were really serious they'd get riders to sign declarations.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    Macaloon wrote:
    nic_77 wrote:
    Yeah, but what parameters? I test my blood "parameters".
    That's not the same as passport profiling.

    I don't disagree with you 8). It may be a worthless waste of time. If they were really serious they'd get riders to sign declarations.

    Or employ riders that hadn't doped ;)
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