Contador and Sky's trainer

rick_chasey

Forgetting doping for a minute, it's interesting that SdJ has turned out to be beneficial to Contador, isn't it?

He always came across as a friendly enough guy, who knew his way around the peloton, but nothing remarkable.

No_Ta_Doctor

:-D

Top effort DD.

Note to self: Must raise duty on spirits...

ddraver

frenchfighter wrote:

I would disagree that Froome is a nice guy on the bike or that his peers like him. It is common knowledge that he and Sky are really not very well liked.

No it isnt, the opposite is true...

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm afraid I'm only prepared to take silver, maam, I have to admit defeat to this:

Above The Cows wrote:

mfin wrote:

a line between being passionate and mental.

Team Sky are stenciling this addition onto their cross bars as we speak.

Oh you's is too kind sir. *doffs casquette*

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

Forgetting doping for a minute, it's interesting that SdJ has turned out to be beneficial to Contador, isn't it?

He always came across as a friendly enough guy, who knew his way around the peloton, but nothing remarkable.

Well true but he had several years to learn from the best/nerdiest in the business. Guess he must have kept his ear to the ground and quietly absorbed what all the scientists were saying...sensible guy!

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

Forgetting doping for a minute, it's interesting that SdJ has turned out to be beneficial to Contador, isn't it?

or what could he have told Saxo/Contador about Sky that Rogers couldn't have?

above_the_cows

frenchfighter wrote:

It is common knowledge that he and Sky are really not very well liked.

What Sky need here, just to get all cross-threads for a second, is a Paolini style fun BuffTM

No tA Doctor wrote:

Note to self: Must raise duty on spirits...

What about wines?

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Forgetting doping for a minute, it's interesting that SdJ has turned out to be beneficial to Contador, isn't it?

He always came across as a friendly enough guy, who knew his way around the peloton, but nothing remarkable.

Well true but he had several years to learn from the best/nerdiest in the business. Guess he must have kept his ear to the ground and quietly absorbed what all the scientists were saying...sensible guy!

Jaa but look, pretty much everyone does that to a bigger or lesser degree nowadays.

You wouldn't be doing your job properly if you weren't.

Imagine you were at work. Imagine you're a recruiter. You hear that everyone is investing significant amounts of capital into a big old database of candidates that you don't have. You suddenly see your rival's profits shooting up, and you're loosing business you'd otherwise win.

Now, what do you do?

If I can get a pretty good idea what Sky get up to, I can't see that Contador who is a professional, and a world class one at that can't.

And all this science stuff is overplayed - I was reading about the kind of training they talk about in 2005 in pro cycling.

I imagine, if there is an advantage sky have, beyond a massive chequebook, is the management side of things. All that arse-achingly awful Brailsford chat has made its way into business because, in a competitive environment, like it or not, it does work (if done properly). All sky is, to my mind, (and I spend my life looking at the inner workings of firms to see how they produce good people (and why people I move to other firms don't do so well in different environments or visa versa)), is just a business that has everyone pulling in the same direction and has enough managerial expertise to make sure there's a good even coverage of all the variables that make a firm competitive.

It's bloody boring, but that's what it is. No different to work.

ddraver

True - an alternative view is that SdJ is the equivalent to a professional scientist as opposed to one in pre acedemia. Kerrisson and his ilk strike me as someone that could get so bogged down into the science that they re not able to actually apply the science in an effective way. Shane Sutton or Rod Ellingworth were able to convert the nerdery into real world training plans (I guess). SdJ has essentially (maybe) become an Ellingworth or Sutton to Contador.

The advantage of having a Kerrisson on the tea is that he can constantly innovate and rework the pure science, but Bertie is unlikely to be around long enough for that to really matter....

That said, the simplest explanation would be that Riis has had to relinquish his hold on the training side of the team (Friebe, 2013) and this has allowed riders to take advantage of some of the new stuff that is taken over cycling. The best example of this is Movistar who have been unapologetic that they re trying very hard to do all the things that Sky do. Arguably the success that Garmin have had given their limited budget is another example

frenchfighter

Above The Cows wrote:

Bike? You were lucky to have a BIKE! We used to have one bike for all hundred and six of us, no gears. Half the saddle was missing; we used to have to use our feet for brakes.

You were lucky to have have a shared bike! *We* used to have to use a trike that belonged to the nuns and that we could only use every other Wednesday. Ohhhh we used to dream of having a bike and feet for brakes! That would'a been heaven for us in the orphanage for crippled footless children.

Well when I say "bike" it was more a few pieces of scaffolding held together with barbed wire with tin cans for wheels, but it was a bike to US...And you lived in an orphanage for crippled footless children? What sweet charity! We lived in a cardboard box in the middle of the road all one hundred and six of us...

In all seriousness when Contador was just a young boy his parents could not afford to buy more than one bike for the family. When Fran outgrew the old and heavy Orbea it was passed on to Contador. He rode this bike with his tracksuit top flapping like a parachute yet still managed to keep up with the older boys on better equipment.

"He was about 15 the first time I saw him, with that iron bike, which was completely outdated. He had a natural talent and strength, and broke away from the pack in a race that included Madrid's best young cyclists. It was obvious he had no technique, but also that he wanted to be a cyclist. Alberto had nothing. His parents couldn't even go with him to the races because they had to stay with his younger brother Raúl, who has suffered from brain damage since he was a child. Raul was always in his wheelchair."
-Javier Fernández, DS of the first team Contador rode for: Embajadores.

He suffers from a cerebral cavernomaa and very nearly died due to an attack. He had serious surgery where they cut open his skull and he has titanium plates in his head (you can see the large scar in some photos). November 27 2004 is the day he was released - that day it was near zero and pouring yet he got on his bike and trained hard.

A consequence of this issue is that he is at risk of epileptic fits and used to have to regularly see a neurologist and take daily medication (I'm not sure if that is still the case today). Pedro Celaya, his doctor at Discovery says he was obsessed with not doing anything to harm his health.

He had won each Grand Tours by the age of 25. There are only four other riders in the World that have won all three Grand Tours.

He is a model professional, good human being and an exceptional athlete. He rides with style and flair, is determined and spirited, a natural attacker and brings endless joy to the fans. I supported him from the very start and I will continue to do so.

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Note to self: Must raise duty on spirits...

What about wines?

Possibly the inexpensive ones, say anything below £50 per bottle.

I'm also thinking of having a word with the Home Secretary about reintroducing the Droit de Seigneur*. Some of these young women are wasted on the lower classes.


*Note to cycling fans: this is NOT spelt Droit de Soigneur and confers no special status on team masseurs, dogsbodies or mechanics.

rayjay

Please let us know when you have got all the bullsh%t out of your tiny minds so we can get this thread back on track.

frenchfighter

No tA Doctor wrote:

Droit de Seigneur

I think you mean Droit du Seigneur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

True - an alternative view is that SdJ is the equivalent to a professional scientist as opposed to one in pre acedemia. Kerrisson and his ilk strike me as someone that could get so bogged down into the science that they re not able to actually apply the science in an effective way. Shane Sutton or Rod Ellingworth were able to convert the nerdery into real world training plans (I guess). SdJ has essentially (maybe) become an Ellingworth or Sutton to Contador.

The advantage of having a Kerrisson on the tea is that he can constantly innovate and rework the pure science, but Bertie is unlikely to be around long enough for that to really matter....

Brailsford's built and grown the business in exactly the same way the successful fast growth new businesses have been built in my world.

Big chequebook, smart hires that compliment one and other and cover all the bases. All the unsexy stuff too. The support, the 'middle & back office' to use trading parlance. The systems, the infrastructure, the necessary middle management, the 'control' etc etc.

BMC is exactly what happens when you open a big chequebook with a bit of a whim and you hire 10 superstars and don't have anything else.


----

Now, back to the point. Why SdJ? If we can safely assume it's not any particular insight he's gained from Sky that someone else couldn't provide.

Or does it not matter that it's SdJ and more that Contador has someone looking after just him??

No_Ta_Doctor

frenchfighter wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Droit de Seigneur

I think you mean Droit du Seigneur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

Clearly. I don't speak French. I have people to do that for me.

ddraver

I have to defer to your knowledge of business...I don't think that the training can be understated though. As discussed, none of it is new, the question is why it took so long for the traditional cycling world to adopt it (the likely answer to that is probably drugs)

All of it is important though.

tailwindhome

No tA Doctor wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Droit de Seigneur

I think you mean Droit du Seigneur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

Clearly. I don't speak French. I have people to do that for me.

I don't speak French either.

Me?

I let the funky music do the talking

joelsim

TailWindHome wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Forgetting doping for a minute, it's interesting that SdJ has turned out to be beneficial to Contador, isn't it?

or what could he have told Saxo/Contador about Sky that Rogers couldn't have?

How not to reinfuse contaminated blood?

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

ddraver wrote:

True - an alternative view is that SdJ is the equivalent to a professional scientist as opposed to one in pre acedemia. Kerrisson and his ilk strike me as someone that could get so bogged down into the science that they re not able to actually apply the science in an effective way. Shane Sutton or Rod Ellingworth were able to convert the nerdery into real world training plans (I guess). SdJ has essentially (maybe) become an Ellingworth or Sutton to Contador.

The advantage of having a Kerrisson on the tea is that he can constantly innovate and rework the pure science, but Bertie is unlikely to be around long enough for that to really matter....

Brailsford's built and grown the business in exactly the same way the successful fast growth new businesses have been built in my world.

Big chequebook, smart hires that compliment one and other and cover all the bases. All the unsexy stuff too. The support, the 'middle & back office' to use trading parlance. The systems, the infrastructure, the necessary middle management, the 'control' etc etc.

BMC is exactly what happens when you open a big chequebook with a bit of a whim and you hire 10 superstars and don't have anything else.


----

Now, back to the point. Why SdJ? If we can safely assume it's not any particular insight he's gained from Sky that someone else couldn't provide.

Or does it not matter that it's SdJ and more that Contador has someone looking after just him??

It's interesting that he seems to be a personal trainer for Contador, rather than a team coach of some sort. That's very much the opposite of the "Sky" way.

That said, I don't think it's quite as easy to write off the idea that SdJ has a couple of specific insights that might be of benefit to Contador. Let's face it, there are plenty of teams and riders that could consider "up to date five years ago" as moving forward a couple of decades. If Contador was reliant on a personal trainer before (Pepe Martí ), rather than a team trainer, then who knows what training methods he was following?

mfin

I think if you wanted to start a supermarket and emulate the growth of Tesco's then you'd not expect to do so by headhunting a checkout girl or even one of the shift managers who have their photo on the wall. We don't actually know if Steven de Jongh has actually made a great impact or not, and if AC has a great season, whether it will be down to this guy or what this guy learnt at Sky and re-applied. It's all a bit steak pie in the sky at the moment.

It's all interesting to speculate though I suppose, not sure it's worth speculating too much though, particularly on the back of the words of AC who's not exactly the shiniest spanner in the box.

thomthom

rayjay wrote:

Please let us know when you have got all the bullsh%t out of your tiny minds so we can get this thread back on track.

Please let us know when you've read the book.

blazing_saddles

Yes, things are infinitely better around here, now that the racing season is in full swing. :roll:

above_the_cows

frenchfighter wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Some silly stuff

Some serious stuff

I don't deny any of that Frenchie. I'm sure it has shaped who he is. It can inform our view of him, just like other things have shaped our view of him, but it should not be what we judge him on. We should judge him on his performances on the bike which this year have been very entertaining. I'm not a huge fan, I never have been, but I can say he's an excellent rider who has made some unfortunate choices along the way.

No_Ta_Doctor

mfin wrote:

I think if you wanted to start a supermarket and emulate the growth of Tesco's then you'd not expect to do so by headhunting a checkout girl or even one of the shift managers who have their photo on the wall. We don't actually know if Steven de Jongh has actually made a great impact or not, and if AC has a great season, whether it will be down to this guy or what this guy learnt at Sky and re-applied. It's all a bit steak pie in the sky at the moment.

It's all interesting to speculate though I suppose, not sure it's worth speculating too much though, particularly on the back of the words of AC who's not exactly the shiniest spanner in the box.

Dammit, that's another top quality post mfin.

rayjay

No problem. I'm always happy to help.

When you do finally learn to read you can buy your own books . That's if you have worked out how money works and your mum will let you take the bus.

ddraver

Part of the Sky training method is that each rider has a personalised plan. I don't recall much mention of Bertie having a coach before hand so this is a step in the right direction for him.

This bit sounds right out of the Sky playbook for example (and makes a laughing stock of the "not interested in what Sky does line")

The Dutchman is not a sports physiologist but apparently convinced Contador of the benefits of training at altitude on Mount Teide in Tenerife and has helped him control his weight.

While most of the Tinkoff-Saxo team trained at sea level in Gran Canaria in January, Contador clocked lots of climbing miles at altitude on Mount Teide with two teammates, under the careful eye of De Jongh.

above_the_cows

ddraver wrote:

The Dutchman is not a sports physiologist but apparently convinced Contador of the benefits of training at altitude on Mount Teide in Tenerife and has helped him control his weight.

While most of the Tinkoff-Saxo team trained at sea level in Gran Canaria in January, Contador clocked lots of climbing miles at altitude on Mount Teide with two teammates, under the careful eye of De Jongh.

It's really quite basic isn't it.

smithy21

Rayjay- you have to be an alt. Are you Lichtblick?

ddraver

That's very harsh on Lichtblick, poor girl just had a weird thing for Simon Gerrans, don't judge her, we ve all got a guilty pleasure

tailwindhome

the Inner Ring ‏@inrng · 26m
Contador: "I wanted to arrive solo to give the tifosi what they'd been waiting for and use Tirreno's big audience to confirm I'm back"