Vuelta a Andalucia 2014 *SPOILERS*
Comments
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I'm not an ardent Valverde hater. I don't like that he doped and comes out with mealy mouthed statements whenever asked about it, but respect his achievements as a rider. He races to his strengths, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but you eulogise him yet pour scorn on Simon Gerrans, who also races to his strengths, at every opportunity.
Let us not forget, that Gerrans first Tour stage win came after a day long break that held off the GC favourites on the final climb, one that was almost identical to Valverde's win in 2012.0 -
Poor Gerrans ... Dude can't catch a break ... Personally, he's a pure racer ... and based on the relevant vernacular, a Heavyweight ...0
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I'm with you on Gerrans. Clever, calculating and gutsy racer.0
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Macaloon wrote:
I don't think that's the issue. If you drive the train fast enough, nobody can sensibly escape. (Definitely the tactic for Wiggins in 2012. Much less so in 2013 where Froome wanted more uphill room to attack.) Deterring attacks like this is inherently negative and bad for fans (especially True FansTM). I agree with this. Slower trains would lead to more attacking riding as the risk of blowing is reduced.
Having said that, it's such a sensible tactic that it would be negligent for any team to ignore it, and the upside is that when somebody reliably beats it they'll be a hell of a rider.
It's a bit like saying football would be better if we only allowed strikers on the pitch though.... I wouldn't say the train strategy is negative, but it is defensive.
The trick for other teams is to work out how to disrupt the strategy. Garmin have had a little success with this (mainly by playing the unpredictable lunatic card) but generally they're not much GC threat in a GT anyway. Movistar and Saxo nearly did in 2013, but couldn't quite work out what to do once they got Froome isolated. Saxo tried on another stage with Contador and Roche - to make the train work early - but neither had the legs in the end (which stage was it?) Movistar have adopted the train themselves when it's useful for them though, so if it isn't Sky it's likely to be them drilling it.
Personally I agree that smaller teams would make the racing more interesting. Some more medium mountain stages might help as well - especially if they started out with a climb that could help make a selection from the start. But stage racing is never going to be like the classics, which ever way we shape it.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Crankbrother wrote:Poor Gerrans ... Dude can't catch a break ... Personally, he's a pure racer ... and based on the relevant vernacular, a Heavyweight ...
I almost wish I hadn't mentioned him, but the line was too good to waste.
In terms of riding style I have nothing against Gerrans or Valverde. They're clever racers who exploit their strengths to the max. But I have an aesthetic objection to Gerrans' lack of neck and a moral objection to Valverde's doping.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:It's a bit like saying football would be better if we only allowed strikers on the pitch though.... I wouldn't say the train strategy is negative, but it is defensive.
If 2012 was Allardyce, 2013 was Ally Macleod. I don't have a problem with it myself, because I didn't see it in 2013. Froome always attacked from distance, or followed wheels. But I can completely understand it driving others batsh1t crazy....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
I think the reference to Gerrans is largely because FF criticises him all the time for doing just the same thing he lauds Valverde for. I, like others, think he's someone who has maximised his talents.Crankbrother wrote:Poor Gerrans ... Dude can't catch a break ... Personally, he's a pure racer ... and based on the relevant vernacular, a Heavyweight ...Twitter: @RichN950 -
There's no doubt that's it's defensive (although much less so with Froome as leader) and you really need to have the best TTers for it to work properly. Someone wisely compared it to the Italian football strategy of catenaccio.No tA Doctor wrote:It's a bit like saying football would be better if we only allowed strikers on the pitch though.... I wouldn't say the train strategy is negative, but it is defensive.
It's were those that compared Sky to US Postal in 2012 showed their ignorance. Sky with Wiggins was a very defensive strategy while Armstrong's Postal was incredibly aggressive. Sky with Froome is somewhere in between.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've just watched the highlights of this. Sky have absolutely played into Valverde's hands here. Say what you like about setting a high pace to drop people, but Valverde has shown in the last few grand tours that he has a diesel engine, he struggles more when there are sharp attacks, but keeps going at the same pace.
Sky have just set a single pace. Surprise, surprise...0 -
frenchfighter wrote:TailWindHome wrote:For all the talk of Sky trains it was notable how many riders were left at the business end.
I made it 14
Maybe if organisers decide they don't like this GC strategy they cut to 7 man teams?
You reckon 5-10& of a field is a lot?
I agree about smaller teams in general - which would also help the teams with lower budgets and enable better participation in more races.
I do actually.
I would be surprised if there were more left on an uphill finish in the last 1km of any race.
In fact I think the Sky train pulled more riders together to that point than would have been there for a free flowing attacking race.
But I couldn't tell EBH from Wiggins yesterday....“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
RichN95 wrote:
I think the reference to Gerrans is largely because FF criticises him all the time for doing just the same thing he lauds Valverde for. I, like others, think he's someone who has maximised his talents.Crankbrother wrote:Poor Gerrans ... Dude can't catch a break ... Personally, he's a pure racer ... and based on the relevant vernacular, a Heavyweight ...
Gerrans is unpopular for whatever reason others are popular for ... I have no reason to like him as a rider, but as a racer he delivers ... Wouldn't root for him, but wouldn't begrudge him ... TBH, a bit like Sagan ... Effective ...0 -
Macaloon wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:It's a bit like saying football would be better if we only allowed strikers on the pitch though.... I wouldn't say the train strategy is negative, but it is defensive.
If 2012 was Allardyce, 2013 was Ally Macleod. I don't have a problem with it myself, because I didn't see it in 2013. Froome always attacked from distance, or followed wheels. But I can completely understand it driving others batsh1t crazy.
I grew up on George Graham's Arsenal... We weren't exactly popular. We did win stuff though, which is more than can be said for Fat Sam. As for MacLeod, I only really remember the Joe Jordan Heineken ad.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Joelsim wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've just watched the highlights of this. Sky have absolutely played into Valverde's hands here. Say what you like about setting a high pace to drop people, but Valverde has shown in the last few grand tours that he has a diesel engine, he struggles more when there are sharp attacks, but keeps going at the same pace.
Sky have just set a single pace. Surprise, surprise...
Did they have a credible GC threat to sacrifice from distance? If not what else to do but ride it as hard as possible and hope to be strongest?...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
I don't know why any of you are worried. Sky are a one trick pony and they have been found out. Their methods worked for a couple of years, but as ever, the other teams have worked out how to deal with it. Brailsford needs to have a long, hard think. Froome, perhaps excepted as he can vary things on his own.0
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Joelsim wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've just watched the highlights of this. Sky have absolutely played into Valverde's hands here. Say what you like about setting a high pace to drop people, but Valverde has shown in the last few grand tours that he has a diesel engine, he struggles more when there are sharp attacks, but keeps going at the same pace.
Sky have just set a single pace. Surprise, surprise...
Pretty much, though I think they're probably only practicing for some race experience. In a GT with Wiggins as leader they'd be riding exactly the same, Valverde would grab a few seconds and Wiggins would take it all on the TT. In a GT with Froome as leader, he'd take the time he needed on one of the climbs.
How they ride a GT with Porte as leader remains to be seen.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Joelsim wrote:I don't know why any of you are worried. Sky are a one trick pony and they have been found out. Their methods worked for a couple of years, but as ever, the other teams have worked out how to deal with it. Brailsford needs to have a long, hard think. Froome, perhaps excepted as he can vary things on his own.
It works fine when you have Armstrong at the end to finish it off. Porte isn't in the same league, yet.0 -
I hear you. But Sky's pace has been having less and less effect every season recently. The other teams can train to combat this. I'll stick my neck out and say that aside from The Tour, Sky will win very little this year, maybe the Dauphine too.0
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Well that's sport isn't it? Team gets good, beats other teams, other teams adapt.Joelsim wrote:I hear you. But Sky's pace has been having less and less effect every season recently. The other teams can train to combat this. I'll stick my neck out and say that aside from The Tour, Sky will win very little this year, maybe the Dauphine too.
As for Sky, Froome, Porte and, if he's still a GC guy, Wiggins are still three of the best TTers around. Valverde's victory this week has been based on his comfortable TT win. Had he been 15s down on Porte rather than ahead things would have been different.
After that TT, Sky would have tactically been better going harder earlier on the final climbs so Porte could take on Valverde one on one, but I think they know that Valverde is on better form right now.
It's only FebruaryTwitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Well that's sport isn't it? Team gets good, beats other teams, other teams adapt.Joelsim wrote:I hear you. But Sky's pace has been having less and less effect every season recently. The other teams can train to combat this. I'll stick my neck out and say that aside from The Tour, Sky will win very little this year, maybe the Dauphine too.
As for Sky, Froome, Porte and, if he's still a GC guy, Wiggins are still three of the best TTers around. Valverde's victory this week has been based on his comfortable TT win. Had he been 15s down on Porte rather than ahead things would have been different.
After that TT, Sky would have tactically been better going harder earlier on the final climbs so Porte could take on Valverde one on one, but I think they know that Valverde is on better form right now.
It's only February
Wiggo is past his best. Froome and Porte are strong, Valverde has been far and away the best in this race but is getting to/got to his peak. Nibali is obviously still there. You then have Quintana and possibly Kwia, TVG and Pinot to come through. Aside from those I don't see any other Grand Tour contenders (and I wouldn't include Porte at quite that level).0 -
Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?0
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Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.0 -
I agree about an early tough climb making a race really exciting if the big boys want to make it that way.
Can someone explain what skills Gerrans is maximising by sucking wheels then accelerating in the last 100m?
Winning solo and from distance is very rare and to be lauded whenever it happens but a win or attack not like that is not to be lamented.
Sky dont need to practice. Its the same riders doing the same thing in the same order...Geraint up there late though yday was a little surprise. They could ride a train with blindfolds on. We all know that their train harder than anyone else (we are told this) so that they supposedly fly in the races (which they do fewer of individually).
Andy I also went off him somewhat when he was very omerta like re doping. Although he has won and placed highly over and over since.Contador is the Greatest0 -
He's in good form - he often is early season. But this year he was probably eyeing up the tougher Milan-San Remo, which would have suited him to a T.Joelsim wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
He's in good form - he often is early season. But this year he was probably eyeing up the tougher Milan-San Remo, which would have suited him to a T.Joelsim wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.
I like Valverde I have to say. I think he is one of the best and his effort is exemplary.0 -
He can sprint pretty well and climb pretty well, but he's not top draw at either. So he uses his brain to get results, getting better opponents to do the work for him.frenchfighter wrote:Can someone explain what skills Gerrans is maximising by sucking wheels then accelerating in the last 100m?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Joelsim wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.
What does it say, that hasn't already been said?"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:I agree about an early tough climb making a race really exciting if the big boys want to make it that way.
Can someone explain what skills Gerrans is maximising by sucking wheels then accelerating in the last 100m?
Winning solo and from distance is very rare and to be lauded whenever it happens but a win or attack not like that is not to be lamented.
Sky dont need to practice. Its the same riders doing the same thing in the same order...Geraint up there late though yday was a little surprise. They could ride a train with blindfolds on. We all know that their train harder than anyone else (we are told this) so that they supposedly fly in the races (which they do fewer of individually).
Andy I also went off him somewhat when he was very omerta like re doping. Although he has won and placed highly over and over since.
Gerrans doesn't just suck wheels ... He sticks with the winning break ... Not attractive when you're not a big name, race craft when you are ... No,better/worse than Thor or Sagan ...0 -
RichN95 wrote:
He can sprint pretty well and climb pretty well, but he's not top draw at either. So he uses his brain to get results, getting better opponents to do the work for him.frenchfighter wrote:Can someone explain what skills Gerrans is maximising by sucking wheels then accelerating in the last 100m?
Whereas Valverde sprints pretty well, climbs pretty well, uses his brains to get results and opponents to do the work for him.
Have I got that right? :P"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.
What does it say, that hasn't already been said?
That he is a complete rider, knows how to race for his fans and is better than anyone else in this race. Just like Kwiatek has shown this year.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Is this a bit Tour of Britain ... National rider with a point to prove (course manipulated to suit)?
Could be. But winning 3 completely different stages on the bounce says something.
What does it say, that hasn't already been said?
That he is a complete rider, knows how to race for his fans and is better than anyone else in this race. Just like Kwiatek has shown this year.
+10
