Vuelta a Andalucia 2014 *SPOILERS*

Richmond Racer

Banter...doncha love it...

thomthom

A stage profile that leaves absolutely nothing to make it an interesting race = a dull race.

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

r0bh wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

Porte was never going to beat Valverde with those tactics today on that parcours. Still, you can understand why SKy used those tactics rather than fire Kennaugh/Thomas off the front. Rehersals.

They better also work on Plan B, C and D as there is some serious real racing talent who are going to shower them with surprises this year.

But surely Valverde is peaking far too early?

Kind of guy that wins all season year after year. Doesn't know how to soft pedal.

Well, not in the last few hundred metres, at least.

RichN95.

Valverde won this race and two stages last year. He didn't win another race all season, so it's a little premature to be getting overexcited. These are like pre-season friendlies.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

Valverde won this race and two stages last year. He didn't win another race all season, so it's a little premature to be getting overexcited. These are like pre-season friendlies.

I would check his palmares and world ranking throughout his whole career. Stuff most riders dream of.

Anonymous

frenchfighter wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Valverde won this race and two stages last year. He didn't win another race all season, so it's a little premature to be getting overexcited. These are like pre-season friendlies.

I would check his palmares and world ranking throughout his whole career. Stuff most riders dream of.

Jersey red.svg 1st Overall Vuelta a Andalucía
Jersey blue.svg 1st Points classification
1st Prologue & Stage 3
1st Trofeo Serra de Tramuntana
2nd Giro di Lombardia
2nd Amstel Gold Race
2nd Clásica de San Sebastián
3rd Bronze medal blank.svg World Road Race Championships
3rd Overall Vuelta a España
Jersey green.svg Winner points classification
3rd Liège–Bastogne–Liège
3rd Vuelta a Murcia
4th GP Miguel Indurain
6th Milano–Torino
7th Overall Critérium du Dauphiné
7th La Flèche Wallonne
8th Overall Tour de France
9th Overall Tour de Romandie


He sure does consistently finish in the top ten but not winning all season.

nic_77

Well I enjoyed it. Sky tried the turn and burn. Valverde did everything right for his win.
Great chess on wheels.

andyp

I thought great champions won with panache, not sitting on the wheels until the final 200 metres before unleashing a sprint?

Crankbrother

Above The Cows wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

Porte only got back from OZ a week ago ...

The Cowardly Lion stepped up today ...

Paul 8v

Quite a predictable end, rubbish tactics by Sky, basically a black and blue lead out train for Valverde. That is it for the GC then, be interesting tomorrow though with Kittel out of the picture.

Are we allowed to mention Wiggins' turn on the front? ;-)

dish_dash

Paul 8v wrote:

Quite a predictable end, rubbish tactics by Sky, basically a black and blue lead out train for Valverde. That is it for the GC then, be interesting tomorrow though with Kittel out of the picture.

Are we allowed to mention Wiggins' turn on the front? ;-)

briefly

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

I thought great champions won with panache, not sitting on the wheels until the final 200 metres before unleashing a sprint?

The greatest trick that Valverde ever pulled was convincing the world he was an exciting rider.

He epitomises my arguements against time bonuses.

Paul 8v

dish_dash wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

Quite a predictable end, rubbish tactics by Sky, basically a black and blue lead out train for Valverde. That is it for the GC then, be interesting tomorrow though with Kittel out of the picture.

Are we allowed to mention Wiggins' turn on the front? ;-)

briefly

Thanks

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

andyp wrote:

I thought great champions won with panache, not sitting on the wheels until the final 200 metres before unleashing a sprint?

The greatest trick that Valverde ever pulled was convincing the world he was an exciting rider.

He epitomises my arguements against time bonuses.

Valverde's basically an uphill Gerrans, isn't he?

Time bonuses are the work of the devil.

Paul 8v

His prologue was pretty kick a$$ but yeah, he didn't win an exciting way. He did use his head though, which as much as it pains me to say it is what Gerrans does too.

frenchfighter

If you ride like Sky then what else is Valverde supposed to do? What would you suggest he does? Attacking off the front is useless...those boys will burn themselves out until their top guy is back in contention and then he will have little left for the sprint and may get dropped before then. Or he can ride their silly wheel then attack in the last 500m take a few seconds and the bonus seconds. Its quite clear what he has to do.

Anonymous

frenchfighter wrote:

If you ride like Sky then what else is Valverde supposed to do? What would you suggest he does? Attacking off the front is useless...those boys will burn themselves out until their top guy is back in contention and then he will have little left for the sprint and may get dropped before then. Or he can ride their silly wheel then attack in the last 500m take a few seconds and the bonus seconds. Its quite clear what he has to do.

Wait so if a Sky rider attacks from 500m he's boring but if Valverde does it he's a great champion? Jesus.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

If you ride like Sky then what else is Valverde supposed to do? What would you suggest he does? Attacking off the front is useless...those boys will burn themselves out until their top guy is back in contention and then he will have little left for the sprint and may get dropped before then. Or he can ride their silly wheel then attack in the last 500m take a few seconds and the bonus seconds. Its quite clear what he has to do.

He should do exactly what he's doing. I'm criticising him. I, and others, are just pointing out that he's not the exciting attacking rider some think he is (presumably because he's Spanish), but just a higher altitude version of Gerrans.

frenchfighter

Well lets be honest here - the rider knows how to attack, knows how to ride solo and certainly knows how to force a selection...I have seen it time after time along with his wins such as today. Gerrans is much much worse. In these wins he is no worse than anyone that finished in the first group - he is just best of those that rode the sky burn out train - right?

Macaloon

sjmclean wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

If you ride like Sky then what else is Valverde supposed to do? What would you suggest he does? Attacking off the front is useless...those boys will burn themselves out until their top guy is back in contention and then he will have little left for the sprint and may get dropped before then. Or he can ride their silly wheel then attack in the last 500m take a few seconds and the bonus seconds. Its quite clear what he has to do.

Wait so if a Sky rider attacks from 500m he's boring but if Valverde does it he's a great champion? Jesus.

I don't think that's the issue. If you drive the train fast enough, nobody can sensibly escape. (Definitely the tactic for Wiggins in 2012. Much less so in 2013 where Froome wanted more uphill room to attack.) Deterring attacks like this is inherently negative and bad for fans (especially True FansTM). I agree with this. Slower trains would lead to more attacking riding as the risk of blowing is reduced.

Having said that, it's such a sensible tactic that it would be negligent for any team to ignore it, and the upside is that when somebody reliably beats it they'll be a hell of a rider.

tailwindhome

For all the talk of Sky trains it was notable how many riders were left at the business end.

I made it 14

Maybe if organisers decide they don't like this GC strategy they cut to 7 man teams?

andyp

frenchfighter wrote:

Well lets be honest here - the rider knows how to attack, knows how to ride solo and certainly knows how to force a selection...I have seen it time after time along with his wins such as today. Gerrans is much much worse. In these wins he is no worse than anyone that finished in the first group - he is just best of those that rode the sky burn out train - right?

I'm always amazed he has a suntan, given he spends most of his time in the shadow of other riders, waiting and watching.

He doesn't know how to attack and he rarely rides solo, you're confusing him with someone else (Froome maybe?). He has a great sprint, so sitting in and waiting to unleash that is almost always the right tactic for him, but please let's not make out he's some great champion, swashbuckling his way to great wins.

frenchfighter

TailWindHome wrote:

For all the talk of Sky trains it was notable how many riders were left at the business end.

I made it 14

Maybe if organisers decide they don't like this GC strategy they cut to 7 man teams?

You reckon 5-10& of a field is a lot?

I agree about smaller teams in general - which would also help the teams with lower budgets and enable better participation in more races.

frenchfighter

andyp wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Well lets be honest here - the rider knows how to attack, knows how to ride solo and certainly knows how to force a selection...I have seen it time after time along with his wins such as today. Gerrans is much much worse. In these wins he is no worse than anyone that finished in the first group - he is just best of those that rode the sky burn out train - right?

I'm always amazed he has a suntan, given he spends most of his time in the shadow of other riders, waiting and watching.

He doesn't know how to attack and he rarely rides solo, you're confusing him with someone else (Froome maybe?). He has a great sprint, so sitting in and waiting to unleash that is almost always the right tactic for him, but please let's not make out he's some great champion, swashbuckling his way to great wins.

You being an ardent Valverde hater there is little point in me arguing. I would just reiterate again what I said in the post you quoted - which is honest. I also like him as so many on here hate him - he is not my favourite rider even if I like him a lot and prefer he is in races.

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Well lets be honest here - the rider knows how to attack, knows how to ride solo and certainly knows how to force a selection...I have seen it time after time along with his wins such as today. Gerrans is much much worse. In these wins he is no worse than anyone that finished in the first group - he is just best of those that rode the sky burn out train - right?

I'm always amazed he has a suntan, given he spends most of his time in the shadow of other riders, waiting and watching.

He doesn't know how to attack and he rarely rides solo, you're confusing him with someone else (Froome maybe?). He has a great sprint, so sitting in and waiting to unleash that is almost always the right tactic for him, but please let's not make out he's some great champion, swashbuckling his way to great wins.

In his entire career Valverde has won a race by more than 5 seconds on only three occasions (excluding time trials)

frenchfighter

Nice stat. You can also check where he has finished in a select group ahead of the rest or when he has finished first of the GC candidates by a margin even if not won (due to a non-GC threat winning).

blazing_saddles

The last time I can recall Valverde attacking from beyond the kite was Ventoux
in the Dauphine, a few years back.
Since then it's always been mark wheels and sprint when within sprinting range.
Effectively, he's sucked the life out of as many uphill finishes as all
the combined Sky trains and then some.

frenchfighter

Really? So you dont recognize the win from the photo I posted? Its from 2012 and the biggest race in the season. Attacked with others from 125km out - ended up finishing 19secs ahead of Froome because the big blue locomotive wanted to catch him. There are numerous other examples in the smaller Spanish races as well as the Vuelta where he is part of a select group - winning solo repetitively is not a pre-requisite for a great champion.

Crankbrother

Valverde wins to his strengths ... Which, regardless of his shadiness, puts him in the same bracket as Boonen, Fab, Cav ... and an uphill copy of Sagan ...

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

Really? So you dont recognize the win from the photo I posted? Its from 2012 and the biggest race in the season. Attacked with others from 125km out - ended up finishing 19secs ahead of Froome because the big blue locomotive wanted to catch him. There are numerous other examples in the smaller Spanish races as well as the Vuelta where he is part of a select group - winning solo repetitively is not a pre-requisite for a great champion.

Was he a threat to the Maillot Jeune at the time?
No. Well over half an hour down.
His "attack" was allowed to go, like any other GC no hoper.

Lightweight.