XTR 2015
Comments
-
Thewaylander wrote:will prob have 11 speed sram on the next bike for the giggles.
Expensive giggles...0 -
njee20 wrote:How do you break the gear indicators?
it rains they stop working, or i crash the stop working. or i sneeze they jam up
never had a set that lasted more than a few rides, or more annoying the mist up and can't see them anyway. i just get shifters with out now.
and yup expensive giggles but what else is a redundency pay out going to be for?0 -
Are you talking digital or mechanical?0
-
Finally we have XTR Di2 - I really cannot believe it's taken them this long! I wonder if they ll be cross compatable at all as that would get the 'cross crowd very interested!
Have to disagree with waylander and say that becasue of all the mud/water being thrown around that an electronic system makes even more sense on a (very expensive) MTB. Interestingly they ve also managed to make them look pretty descent whereas the Inital electronic road groups look pretty rubbish...
I ll have to wait until there is an SLX/XT version available though...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I wonder if they ll be cross compatable at all as that would get the 'cross crowd very interested!
I'd be stunned if they weren't! Seeing as you can do all manner of programming trickery with the road groups (9/10 speed interchangeability, reversible button/lever function etc) I can't believe they'll introduce a different system for MTB.Interestingly they ve also managed to make them look pretty descent whereas the Inital electronic road groups look pretty rubbish...
Really? It looked a bit rubbish with wires taped to frames etc, but the Shimano parts looked fine IMO - original Di2 groupset:
Guess MTB will be the same unless manufacturers sort a load of Di2 ready frames in the next year!0 -
Ah yes, Ultegra Di2 looks cheaper and clunkier as it's got bigger servos (to save cost) I expect XT Di2 will look like that!0
-
Thewaylander wrote:njee20 wrote:How do you break the gear indicators?
it rains they stop working, or i crash the stop working. or i sneeze they jam up never had a set that lasted more than a few rides, or more annoying the mist up and can't see them anyway. i just get shifters with out now.
and yup expensive giggles but what else is a redundency pay out going to be for?
I believe that mine are currently full of mud.Cube Analog 2012 with various upgrades.0 -
Having spent a not inconsiderable amount of time pondering the pros/cons of 2015 XTR, one thing suddenly dawned on me that literally nobody else (and I'm on a fair few forums and I mean literally nobody) seems to have thought of (or at least posted said thoughts)... Is it not entirely outside the realms of possibility that you could do what many people have done with 8/9/10 speed for years and use a Sram cassette and Shimano shifters/mech? In theory, conservative as Shimano are, if the rear mech is designed to be run with a 40t chainring, a few extra teeth, say two for example, wouldn't be overly stressing it. I mean Shimano only recommend that the 10 speed Saint mech in "freeride" mode is suitable for 34t, yet many use 36t cassettes without issues... So it is entirely possible that, failing Shimano bringing out a wider range cassette than 11-40, you should, in theory, be able use an XX1/X01 cassette with your Shimano XTR 11 speed mech/shifter... Certainly food for thought right there!
Although tbf, even if it doesn't work, I still want this new XTR... A lot!0 -
declan1 wrote:Kowalski675 wrote:fat_homer wrote:+1 declan1 & warpcow, pretty fugly in my opinion.
I like it. Kind of organic and almost Gigeresque. Electronic shifting just seems crazy to me though.
It does seem a bit wrong. On a road bike it's understandable and is performing in a clean, stable environment but on a MTB it's going to be subjected to lots of water, mud and throwing around. That digital gear display thing looks like the perfect thing to smash against a rock.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.0 -
declan1 wrote:It does seem a bit wrong. On a road bike it's understandable and is performing in a clean, stable environment but on a MTB it's going to be subjected to lots of water, mud and throwing around.
There's plenty of Di2 in use in CX, not to mention muddy Classics, or just plain old mucky UK riding.
As above, not having cables to gum up can be an advantage.0 -
Yes I really don't get the worry about wires not being waterproof. We all have suspension forks/shocks/posts with fragile seals that are woefully intolerant of grit, but think that a couple of wires are inappropriate for off road use...0
-
njee20 wrote:cyd190468 wrote:What is the spacing on the two cassettes?
There's the million dollar question. You'd have to try it I guess, but I'd not be surprised if it's different, considering they've achieved the 11 sprockets in very different ways.
I'd imagine its exactly the same as IIRC Sram 11 speed road achieved 11 speed exactly the same as Shimano 11 speed road.0 -
Yes, but that's not the same as XX1, which is the pertinent question.
With Di2 you should be able to make it work with any gaps though - as long as it'll move far enough and clear the 42t sprocket. So it is potentially an option, albeit an eyewateringly expensive one and one which may require a bit of hacking.0 -
Xx1 and SRAM 22 aren't the same spacing (from when is out the two side by side) so xtr probably won't play with xx10
-
It's not mechanical so can be programed. Like Njee says, hack it and make it do what you want as long as it can reach.0
-
njee20 wrote:Yes, but that's not the same as XX1, which is the pertinent question.
With Di2 you should be able to make it work with any gaps though - as long as it'll move far enough and clear the 42t sprocket. So it is potentially an option, albeit an eyewateringly expensive one and one which may require a bit of hacking.
Cassette offset may well not be the same that is the issue, not cog spacing.
Also DA 9070 has the brains in the front mech.0 -
While I can sort of see the point of XTR moving to 11 speed, I really hope they stick to 10 speed for the rest of the range.
Otherwise we are likely to have the same issues as with SRAM, the cheapest available cassette will be over £200 plus the cost of a driver body.
Whereas for 1x10 setups they could conceivably produce a wider range 10 speed XT cassette (11-38, 11-40) at a reasonable weight of around 350g (current 11-36 is ~338g) for under £100. With a rear mech that's designed to handle the larger spread of course.0 -
Rick Draper wrote:Also DA 9070 has the brains in the front mech.
Tosh, I set up a 1*10 cross bike reusing his old 9070 as a stopgap for the hydraulics and it worked fine without a front mech0 -
Cassette offset may well not be the same that is the issue, not cog spacing
Well, they're linked... the overall width may not be the same, which will mean the spacing is different - this could be overcome by 'hacking' Di2, or (as I think may well be the case) the whole offset could be different - I've a feeling XX1 cassettes are offset closer to the centre of the wheel, so you may not find a Di2 mech clears the spokes when you're on the 42t sprocket.Whereas for 1x10 setups they could conceivably produce a wider range 10 speed XT cassette (11-38, 11-40) at a reasonable weight of around 350g (current 11-36 is ~338g) for under £100. With a rear mech that's designed to handle the larger spread of course.
You'll be lucky! 11 speed will follow a year later, if not the same year (with 9 and 10 they've done SLX/XT/XTR at the same time), which at least means cost effective bits are available from the start.0 -
njee20 wrote:You'll be lucky! 11 speed will follow a year later, if not the same year (with 9 and 10 they've done SLX/XT/XTR at the same time), which at least means cost effective bits are available from the start.
I agree, and from a marketing point of view more is always better. But will they really be able to produce an SLX level 11 speed cassette that doesn't weigh a tonne though?0 -
Yeah! It'll weigh slightly more than a 10 speed one at a guess, but shouldn't be too bad. They'll stick an additional sprocket on a carrier and make the spider slightly lighter!0
-
EdW wrote:While I can sort of see the point of XTR moving to 11 speed, I really hope they stick to 10 speed for the rest of the range.
Otherwise we are likely to have the same issues as with SRAM, the cheapest available cassette will be over £200 plus the cost of a driver body.
Whereas for 1x10 setups they could conceivably produce a wider range 10 speed XT cassette (11-38, 11-40) at a reasonable weight of around 350g (current 11-36 is ~338g) for under £100. With a rear mech that's designed to handle the larger spread of course.
It'll all go 11 speed, no doubt. If you needed a new rear mech to cope with a wider 10 speed cassette, along with a new cassette, you'd need the mech, and probably a new chain, which in a 1x application means the only thing left over is the shifter which would carry over from the old 10 speed setup, which isn't gonna be mega bucks to change. So if you can add "extra" for a little added cost to the consumer, from a marketing perspective it makes sense.
The benefit of using a more conventional freehub than the XD driver means cassette prices will stay largely the same. Ultegra 10 and 11 speed cassettes are the same at retail, Dura-ace increased slightly because the extra cog was made of titanium, so that obviously adds cost. An XT version of the 11-40 11 speed cassette would likely cost the same as the current 10 speed one, at around £70 and they can be had online for half that these days. I can't see a huge weight increase anyway, maybe 20-50g at most, which when you consider you can lose a front mech, shifter and at least one chainring, usually cirac 300-400ish grams, the small added weight of the larger cassette is a pittance.
I don't think the 11 speed hub is going to be a huge downside either. Sure if you want to keep your current wheels it'll be a new freehub, but using a spacer to make it compatible with 10 speed cassettes means that most manufacturers can make a running change to their existing hubs and move them all to 11 speed, if you're still 10 speed just pop the spacer on, so in terms of new wheel sales and compatibility it actually makes very little difference as you're existing 10 speed will work on the speed freehub so if you want to upgrade in the future it won't require a new freehub, as XX1/X01 require.
The headline stats, the cassette range, Di2 1x, 2x or 3x will cause some debate, but the actual practicality of the group is looking very well thought out.0 -
If you needed a new rear mech to cope with a wider 10 speed cassette
You didn't, you needed one to cope with the changed cable ratio. 9/10 speed road stuff is interchangeable.
Agree with the rest of your post though, and as I said previously virtually all the big manufacturers already have an 11 speed freehub body they can start shipping their wheels with.0 -
njee20 wrote:If you needed a new rear mech to cope with a wider 10 speed cassette
You didn't, you needed one to cope with the changed cable ratio. 9/10 speed road stuff is interchangeable.
Agree with the rest of your post though, and as I said previously virtually all the big manufacturers already have an 11 speed freehub body they can start shipping their wheels with.
Oh yeah I get the change in cable pull ratio, I was referring to the fact that current 10 speed mechs can run into issues on larger than 36t cassettes, as they're not designed to work over that, so if Shimano/Sram were to stick with 10 speed they'd have to redesign the mechs to cope with the larger cogs, so even if you were already 10 speed you'd likely have to buy a new mech to cope with the larger cassette, so it makes sense to go 11 speed from a pure marketing perspective, otherwise it could be seen as sideways step.0 -
Well I already run 1x10.
So, to change to an 11-40 10 speed cassette I would only need the cassette & rear mech.
To change to 11 speed I would need the cassette, rear mech plus free hub body, shifter, chain.
On the issue of cassette weight, for 11 speed you are effectively adding a 40t sprocket to an existing 10 speed one. The extra material required will be a lot more than just 1/11th of the total. Without extra weight saving elsewhere (which will likely push up the cost) I think you'll be lucky if it's less than 50g heavier.0 -
And yet the difference between 9 and 10 speed XT cassettes...?
11-32 9 speed: 256g
11-32 10 speed: 286g
So that's less than 1/9 extra. Bear in mind that because the sprockets are on carriers it's not necessarily the case that the bigger sprockets are hugely heavier than the middle ones - as much steel in a 19t sprocket as a bigger one on a carrier.0 -
lawman wrote:EdW wrote:I don't think the 11 speed hub is going to be a huge downside either. Sure if you want to keep your current wheels it'll be a new freehub......
So my question is. Will it be as simple as buying a new 11 speed hub body to convert my existing wheels? Or will I need a new wheelset?
Just got some new wheels and I am concerned they will be out of date pretty soon. 0 -
Depends what wheels they are.0
