Friday Thread: If Scotland vote YES will TWH have to leave?

rolf_f

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Since Britain is the place name for the main landmass from JOG to LE then how could it still be called Britain. It would be Southern Britain maybe. I don't think you could call yourself British anymore. You guys would need to change your passports as well.

My nationality doesn't change just because Scotland chooses to go its own way.

I like MRS point. Presumably any Brit can apply for dual nationality. I'd like to have a go at being Scottish! 8)

suzyb

rjsterry wrote:

Semi serious query: if Scotland does "detach" what happens to the nationality of those born in England, but settled in Scotland? Automatic conversion to Scottish nationality? Automatic right to remain as an ex-pat British citizen?

And what about those of us who want to remain British. Can we stay in Scotland (because it's cheaper, not because it's better) but stay British.

rjsterry

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Since Britain is the place name for the main landmass from JOG to LE then how could it still be called Britain. It would be Southern Britain maybe. I don't think you could call yourself British anymore. You guys would need to change your passports as well.

Britain is not the national title. The nation is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and includes many other islands as well as GB. As the Yes campaign are proposing that the Queen would remain HoS, and the current national title includes the word Kingdom, the nomenclature is going to get even more confusing

aberdeen_lune

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Hmm. I'm not sure names and citizenship issues are really the headline points that should drive a rational decision to vote yes or no.

Sewinman

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Hmm. I'm not sure names and citizenship issues are really the headline points that should drive a rational decision to vote yes or no.

However, tell every Scot that they are going to have to fork out circa £130+ for a new passport and I am sure you would up the No vote somewhat, given their fondness for thriftiness. Which harks back to my earlier point regarding the cost of the new bureaucracy...they will need to set up a passport office, DVLA, VED structure etc etc etc....mind boggling and very expensive.

wgwarburton

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Hmm. I'm not sure names and citizenship issues are really the headline points that should drive a rational decision to vote yes or no.

I'm not sure a rational decision is appropriate... Strikes me that a vote either way is an act of faith (small "f").
If "Yes" then the hope is that Scotland can prosper on its own, despite its size. If "No" then the hope is that some sort of extended devolution will fix the issues with the current UK.
I'm not convinced that Independence would be a net gain to Scotland, let alone the UK, British Isles or Europe, but on the other hand the prospect of a Conservative majority government, possibly bolstered or influenced by UKIP after the next election seems, well, alarming...
British politics seems a bit broken at the moment. Scotland's electorate didn't vote in the SNP because they were craving independence, they voted them in because they were not Labour, not Conservative, electable and appeared to be vaguely competent...

Worryingly, they continue to appear vaguely competent while the big Parties in Westminster continue to alienate Scottish voters... If there is a Yes vote in September it will not be because the SNP won but because Westminster lost.

Cheers,
W.

YIMan

Sewinman wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Hmm. I'm not sure names and citizenship issues are really the headline points that should drive a rational decision to vote yes or no.

However, tell every Scot that they are going to have to fork out circa £130+ for a new passport and I am sure you would up the No vote somewhat, given their fondness for thriftiness. Which harks back to my earlier point regarding the cost of the new bureaucracy...they will need to set up a passport office, DVLA, VED structure etc etc etc....mind boggling and very expensive.

It's not just every Scot though. It's everyone (British? EU?) living in Scotland, plus presumably all the "Scots" that don't live in Scotland and therefore haven't even had a vote on Scotland's independence in the first place. Plus presumably anyone that might choose to live in Scotland in the future.

This is just one small token of demonstration of how ill-thought out in terms of practicalities it all is.

I wonder if I could apply for a Scottish passport on the grounds of some ancestry and attendance at Strathclyde University, even though I no longer live in Scotland.

YIMan

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Since Britain is the place name for the main landmass from JOG to LE then how could it still be called Britain. It would be Southern Britain maybe. I don't think you could call yourself British anymore. You guys would need to change your passports as well.

Nope, the rest of this intermingled isle would still be British, it'd only be the ones living in Scotland who would no longer be British, unless of course they just lived there and didn't adopt a new nationality..etc...etc...etc...

Would the Scots still living in England be Scottish (by ancestry/identity) or British by habitation? Etc..etc..etc....

pblakeney

The vast majority of this thread is but a mere side show on the route to a federal Europe where everyone uses the Euro.

It is only a matter of when and who represents you.

rolf_f

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

Ahh, but you see there is Ireland and there is Northern Ireland. Sorry mate - we are British and will stay British and there won't be any 'Southerns' added to anything whether you like it or not! Besides, I think the Northumbrians would rebel if they were told they were Southern British.

aberdeen_lune

PBlakeney wrote:

The vast majority of this thread is but a mere side show on the route to a federal Europe where everyone uses the Euro.

It is only a matter of when and who represents you.

Your probably spot on with that comment.

aberdeen_lune

Rolf F wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

Ahh, but you see there is Ireland and there is Northern Ireland. Sorry mate - we are British and will stay British and there won't be any 'Southerns' added to anything whether you like it or not! Besides, I think the Northumbrians would rebel if they were told they were Southern British.

I agree we are all British in terms of coming from/ resident in the British isles. But England & Wales do not constitute Great Britain by any stretch of the imagination. You can't split a large part of and keep the same name. Look at Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

meanredspider

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

Ahh, but you see there is Ireland and there is Northern Ireland. Sorry mate - we are British and will stay British and there won't be any 'Southerns' added to anything whether you like it or not! Besides, I think the Northumbrians would rebel if they were told they were Southern British.

I agree we are all British in terms of coming from/ resident in the British isles. But England & Wales do not constitute Great Britain by any stretch of the imagination. You can't split a large part of and keep the same name. Look at Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

You didn't answer what you thought would happen with Spain and Canada. Spa & In, Can & Ada?

rolf_f

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I agree we are all British in terms of coming from/ resident in the British isles. But England & Wales do not constitute Great Britain by any stretch of the imagination. You can't split a large part of and keep the same name. Look at Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

We aren't splitting anything - you are! (Or are trying and failing to at least). If you bog off, you don't dictate any terms about what the rest of us do or don't do including changing names that don't need to be changed. The Island may still be Great Britain but that doesn't mean that we can't call ourselves British if you choose to form another country with a different name of your choice. Or is Mr Salmond planning more dictating of terms and conditions that he has no power to dictate?

As for Yugoslavia - that's a bit different. There are ethnic differences there whereas there is basically no greater difference between the Scots and English than any other regional differences across the country.

YIMan

"We don't want to be British but we don't want you to be either".

Escadrille Ecosse

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

The existing UK government has no problem with people having dual nationality (ie two passports) and presumably would continue to hold that position if we voted to become independent. What position a Scottish government might choose to hold on the subject is a different subject and not one they have declared on as yet I believe.

YIMan wrote:

"We don't want to be British but we don't want you to be either".

This happened before the Partition of India in 1947 when the predominantly Muslim negotiators looking to form the separate Pakistans suggested that the predominantly Hindu state call itself Hindustan. They didn't and kept the name India for their new nation.

greg66_tri_v2.0

WGWarburton wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Hmm. I'm not sure names and citizenship issues are really the headline points that should drive a rational decision to vote yes or no.

I'm not sure a rational decision is appropriate... Strikes me that a vote either way is an act of faith (small "f").
If "Yes" then the hope is that Scotland can prosper on its own, despite its size. If "No" then the hope is that some sort of extended devolution will fix the issues with the current UK.
I'm not convinced that Independence would be a net gain to Scotland, let alone the UK, British Isles or Europe, but on the other hand the prospect of a Conservative majority government, possibly bolstered or influenced by UKIP after the next election seems, well, alarming...
British politics seems a bit broken at the moment. Scotland's electorate didn't vote in the SNP because they were craving independence, they voted them in because they were not Labour, not Conservative, electable and appeared to be vaguely competent...

Worryingly, they continue to appear vaguely competent while the big Parties in Westminster continue to alienate Scottish voters... If there is a Yes vote in September it will not be because the SNP won but because Westminster lost.

Cheers,
W.

So who will get the Scottish vote once the Scots become disenchanted with the SNP? If the referendum goes No, will the SNP's current levels of support not wane?

I suggested up thread that the real objective here may be to build a platform for Devomax. That was ruled off the ballot paper this time by Westminster, so why, I wonder to myself, would it be prepared to offer Devomax in the future after having "won" a no vote (inverted commas because I'm not sure the outcome gives a winner).

YIMan

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Escadrille Ecosse

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

YIMan

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

But plenty of people from the home counties, who currently happen to live in Scotland, will be voting for/against independence......so it'll be "their" oil too. Hopefully enough of the rest of them will have enough money and enough greed to migrate to Scotland and vote a Conservative government in.

aberdeen_lune

YIMan wrote:

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

But plenty of people from the home counties, who currently happen to live in Scotland, will be voting for/against independence......so it'll be "their" oil too. Hopefully enough of the rest of them will have enough money and enough greed to migrate to Scotland and vote a Conservative government in.

I think once people breathe in the clean Scottish air for a while they develop a social conscience so the Scottish Conservatives are on a hiding to nothing.

YIMan

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

But plenty of people from the home counties, who currently happen to live in Scotland, will be voting for/against independence......so it'll be "their" oil too. Hopefully enough of the rest of them will have enough money and enough greed to migrate to Scotland and vote a Conservative government in.

I think once people breathe in the clean Scottish air for a while they develop a social conscience so the Scottish Conservatives are on a hiding to nothing.

The clean Glasgow Scottish air that is so much fresher than the Northumbrian, Pennine, Lake District or Peak District air eh....just for starters...

Broono83

"• Scottish passports will be issued to all people who secure Scottish citizenship. British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens - as well as Scottish born British citizens living outside Scotland. It will also be open to those who have Scottish parents or grandparents, people who have lived here for 10 years, while migrants can apply for “naturalisation.”"

That was a newspapers take on it from the white paper. People would be able to take dual nationality alongside their existing passport apparently.

Amazing some of the reasons thrown up for voting no - the cost of setting up a passport office and driving liscence!!! It's a wonder scores of countries have afforded it in the past ...

The SNP would almost certainly disband after a yes vote, maybe surviving the initial election after independence. Remember that despite what the MSM are trying to push, a yes vote is a vote for Scotland to decide its own future, not a vote for the SNP.

aberdeen_lune

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

But plenty of people from the home counties, who currently happen to live in Scotland, will be voting for/against independence......so it'll be "their" oil too. Hopefully enough of the rest of them will have enough money and enough greed to migrate to Scotland and vote a Conservative government in.

I think once people breathe in the clean Scottish air for a while they develop a social conscience so the Scottish Conservatives are on a hiding to nothing.

The clean Glasgow Scottish air that is so much fresher than the Northumbrian, Pennine, Lake District or Peak District air eh....just for starters...

Didn't you know Glasgow is known as the dear green place. It has loads of parkland. Yes
Loads of nice places in Southern Britain. It will be worth a stamp on my Scottish passport to holiday there.

rolf_f

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

It will be worth a stamp on my Scottish passport to holiday there.

You won't be able to afford to - you won't have a currency!

YIMan

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Escadrille Ecosse wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I don't think you can have dual nationality now. Your only supposed to have one passport. So it will depend on which nationality you qualify for. You can be either a citizen of the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland or a Scottish citizen. Your choice if you qualify for both.

How will Scotland decide who "qualifies" to be Scottish, out of interest?

Presumably on the same basis as one qualifies to be a British Citizen, ie birth, parents, naturalisation, because they have lots of wedge, etc. they'll want anyone they can get, if only for boasting rights. Although I imagine there might be a test to weed out anyone who sounds too home counties trying to sneak back in and steal "our oil"

But plenty of people from the home counties, who currently happen to live in Scotland, will be voting for/against independence......so it'll be "their" oil too. Hopefully enough of the rest of them will have enough money and enough greed to migrate to Scotland and vote a Conservative government in.

I think once people breathe in the clean Scottish air for a while they develop a social conscience so the Scottish Conservatives are on a hiding to nothing.

The clean Glasgow Scottish air that is so much fresher than the Northumbrian, Pennine, Lake District or Peak District air eh....just for starters...

Didn't you know Glasgow is known as the dear green place. It has loads of parkland. Yes
Loads of nice places in Southern Britain. It will be worth a stamp on my Scottish passport to holiday there.

I lived there for five years and can confirm that the air is far from clean, so no doubt Conservatives will be able to multiply there as well as all the other major population/industry centres.

I suggest you fly to Britain as otherwise you'l have to drive through the north. That'll be the formerly kindred north that "the people living in Scotland" turned over to pursue their own selfish ideals, so they could escape the selfish ideals of the people in the south.

aberdeen_lune

I'm sure we will all get along wonderfully after the split. I do feel sorry for the anyone stuck with Cameron & Co though.

The Rookie

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I suggested up thread that the real objective here may be to build a platform for Devomax. That was ruled off the ballot paper this time by Westminster, so why, I wonder to myself, would it be prepared to offer Devomax in the future after having "won" a no vote (inverted commas because I'm not sure the outcome gives a winner).

That was because there is no such thing as DevoMax, it always seems to be the answer to a single question at that time, but at no point has anyone suggested a single coherent set of parameters for it, that of course isn't surprising when they can't even do it for full independance!

rolf_f

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I'm sure we will all get along wonderfully after the split. I do feel sorry for the anyone stuck with Cameron & Co though.

There's no point feeling sorry for yourself! Now cheer up!