Friday Thread: If Scotland vote YES will TWH have to leave?

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Not all of them are! How d'ya get in?
    Enough of them have been in power for 4 years.
    Long enough to act.
    I always judge people not by what they say, but what they do.

    You say politicians shouldn't promise.

    So how does a politician get into power?

    Simple question.

    It's a gripe of mine. That everyone complains that politicians promise stuff to get into power that they can't always enact or choose later (in light of new evidence) not to. No-one has a crystal ball and stuff changes, so of course some promises won't be met.

    That's the whole premise of being elected. You can't campaign without promising. It's just facile politician bashing.
  • YIMan
    YIMan Posts: 576
    YIMan wrote:
    YIMan wrote:

    See MkII - the community association where the assets are owned by the community. They cannot be readily split up and apportioned to individuals who off their own back decide they don't want to be part of it any more.

    By "The English" , I presume you mean the UK which will still have English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish residing in it. Yes, the UK will want to trade with Scotland (which will also still have English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish residing in it).

    The UK also wants to trade with France and Germany but that doesn't mean it will start handing over its assets to them.

    Is that the plan "The UK will want to trade with Scotland so they'll be kind to us during negotiations"?


    MkII is fundamentally flawed for the same reason highlighted

    Yup. Same as if I said 'The French' in this context I'd mean all creeds, colours and nationalities in that country.
    Yeah Northern Ireland will trade with Scotland - about 700mil a year - England is the dominant partner.

    Not France or Germany as they are strong econcomies which don't need support. This isn't a new concept - GB loaned Ireland 10 Billion recently, not because they like Terry Wogan but because Ireland is a key customer for British goods. Customers going bust is bad for UK Plc.

    Being kind is nothing to do with anything.

    Then you have fundamentally misunderstood MKII if you think being owned by the community means you can start stripping the community's assets if you decide to leave it..


    If the community association's liabilities exceeded their assets would you not expect the splinter group to pay a contribution? Why would assets be treated differently than liabilities?

    Oh and Big Dave says it's his big screen TV - he's coming round for it tonight. What you gonna do?

    The splinter group is getting a share of both assets (the ones near it in the geographic north of the village) and liabilities.

    What the splinter is saying is "Ah well, the apple orchard is in our part of the village and we think we'll be better off keeping all the apples ourselves".

    The splinter group believes it can have the best of both worlds and share the village assets when it suits them but keep assets to themselves when it suits them too. Understandably the rest of the people in the village are becoming somewhat peed off with this "I'm alright jock when it suits me" attitude.

    It seems that you have accepted the basic principle that the assets and liabilities should be split. Your issue seems to be a distaste for the opening negotiating of the splinter group.

    As for the orchard, it would be fair to say that you've had the benefit of the delicious apples for many years, some say you've had the best fruit off the tree. You've built a fine cider plant and a factory making a fine selection of pies crumbles and other yummy treats. The splinter group are more than happy to let you keep the factories and bakeries and provide you will a supply of apples for many years to come.

    Apples are £2 per kg.

    My issue is the splinter group wanting to both keep their apples to themselves and also wanting all the best bits of what being part of the wider community brings. A very selfish approach if you ask me.

    The whole community has had the benefit of the apples. The position of the orchard in the village is a geographical accident and is not attributable to any virtue, quality, ethnicity or right of the people that just happen to live in the north of the village.

    As it happens, the people in the north-east and north-west of the village aren't that happy with the status quo either, and feel rather insulted/let down that the people in the north are striking out on their own instead of joining like-minded forces. They used to be such good friends.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Not all of them are! How d'ya get in?
    Enough of them have been in power for 4 years.
    Long enough to act.
    I always judge people not by what they say, but what they do.

    You say politicians shouldn't promise.

    So how does a politician get into power?

    Simple question.

    It's a gripe of mine. That everyone complains that politicians promise stuff to get into power that they can't always enact or choose later (in light of new evidence) not to. No-one has a crystal ball and stuff changes, so of course some promises won't be met.

    That's the whole premise of being elected. You can't campaign without promising. It's just facile politician bashing.
    I base their credibility on past performance.
    No current politicians have any credibility based on their performance in my opinion therefore I do not trust any of their future promises.
    It does indeed make voting very difficult. 2015 should be interesting but I do not hold much hope for improvement.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    YIMan wrote:
    The whole community has had the benefit of the apples. The position of the orchard in the village is a geographical accident and is not attributable to any virtue, quality, ethnicity or right of the people that just happen to live in the north of the village.
    By apples, I assume you mean oil?
    This has already been internationally agreed as to how it would be divided. It is along the median line.
    Scotland gets north of the median line. The UK gets south of the median line.
    Any further analogies or debates are redundant.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • YIMan
    YIMan Posts: 576
    PBlakeney wrote:
    YIMan wrote:
    The whole community has had the benefit of the apples. The position of the orchard in the village is a geographical accident and is not attributable to any virtue, quality, ethnicity or right of the people that just happen to live in the north of the village.
    By apples, I assume you mean oil?
    This has already been internationally agreed as to how it would be divided. It is along the median line.
    Scotland gets north of the median line. The UK gets south of the median line.
    Any further analogies or debates are redundant.

    But YES Scotland wants loads of other stuff "constitutionally south of the median line", which is where the debate is. I.e. "We don't want to be in the UK, but we want all the best bits of the UK without getting the bad bits, without actually being in the UK any more".
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    YIMan wrote:
    But YES Scotland wants loads of other stuff "constitutionally south of the median line", which is where the debate is. I.e. "We don't want to be in the UK, but we want all the best bits of the UK without getting the bad bits, without actually being in the UK any more".
    If you want to debate then it would be worthwhile giving the specifics.
    Quite frankly I think it is a waste of time (quite an interesting diversion, but a waste none the less) as they will vote no anyway.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    No-one has a crystal ball and stuff changes, so of course some promises won't be met.That's the whole premise of being elected. You can't campaign without promising. It's just facile politician bashing.

    That assumes that the politicians necessarily ever had the slightest intention of delivering on their promises. A promise is a promise. If you can't promise something, maybe you should "endeavour to do something - taking circumstances into account and covering the whatifs blah blah etc". Of course, unless everyone does it, the politicians sticking to the dishonest promises would gain unfair advantage as Mr Salmond well knows. And if everyone did do it, then the idiots wouldn't have a clue what anyone was on about so how would they decide?

    Don't you think it is a little facile to believe that the reason politicians don't deliver on promises is because of things changing? :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • YIMan wrote:
    My issue is the splinter group wanting to both keep their apples to themselves and also wanting all the best bits of what being part of the wider community brings. A very selfish approach if you ask me.

    Again, it's their opening negotiating position you have an issue with.
    Which is fair enough.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    Here's a question.

    Should agreement not be reached over the orchard. What happens next? War? Is there a Court of Arbitration for new countries?
    Why should war be the first response?
    That is a worrying outlook.

    In our scenario has the splinter group taken only a pea shooter it found in the corner of the church hall? The rest of the village have taken the contents of the shed which contains the axe, a claw hammer and a chainsaw, (but one chainsaw was left in the corner of the splinter groups turf with them shouting that they don't want it).

    Maybe the village can just walk in and take the apples?
    If I know you, and I like you, you can borrow my bike box for £30 a week. PM for details.
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    Here's a question.

    Should agreement not be reached over the orchard. What happens next? War? Is there a Court of Arbitration for new countries?
    Why should war be the first response?
    That is a worrying outlook.

    In our scenario has the splinter group taken only a pea shooter it found in the corner of the church hall? The rest of the village have taken the contents of the shed which contains the axe, a claw hammer and a chainsaw, (but one chainsaw was left in the corner of the splinter groups turf with them shouting that they don't want it).

    Maybe the village can just walk in and take the apples?

    Maybe that's how this all started ;)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Here's a question.

    Should agreement not be reached over the orchard. What happens next? War? Is there a Court of Arbitration for new countries?
    Why should war be the first response?
    That is a worrying outlook.

    In our scenario has the splinter group taken only a pea shooter it found in the corner of the church hall? The rest of the village have taken the contents of the shed which contains the axe, a claw hammer and a chainsaw, (but one chainsaw was left in the corner of the splinter groups turf with them shouting that they don't want it).

    Maybe the village can just walk in and take the apples?

    Maybe that's how this all started ;)
    Errr, no. It all started with England coming in to bail out a bankrupt country and its failed banks...
  • ShandyH
    ShandyH Posts: 555
    Do we get approximately 90% of the costs of drilling back (pro-rated by approximate population)?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    In our scenario has the splinter group taken only a pea shooter it found in the corner of the church hall? The rest of the village have taken the contents of the shed which contains the axe, a claw hammer and a chainsaw, (but one chainsaw was left in the corner of the splinter groups turf with them shouting that they don't want it).

    Maybe the village can just walk in and take the apples?
    Tying in nicely with YIMan.
    Why the rush to fight?
    I thought the days of colonisation were long gone. The atlas is no longer pink.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • I've been up half the night listening to results coming in. Seems reasonably clear at this point with Edinburgh and Glasgow still to declare. SNP are already talking about the negotiation position after a No result. Exciting stuff :shock: :D
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    It is all over now.

    Let the new British politics begin!
    I hope that this has affected the way that Westminster sees the Country outside of it's little bubble.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Typical that the Highlands vote is delayed by a big accident in the A9. Hopefully the vote will stop the Scottish government only thinking about the central belt bubble!!! The majority in Glasgow was small when contrasted with Edinburgh and Aberdeen too - yet a lot of fuss is being made of it. Hopefully a good day for British politics
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Shame that. I voted for a brighter tomorrow, but the weather's still as bad as it was yesterday.

    Let's see what these 'new powers' are. I'm hoping for invisibility.
  • Shame that. I voted for a brighter tomorrow

    For some reason I have an image of a turkey and Xmas in my head :wink:
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • YIMan
    YIMan Posts: 576
    Typical that the Highlands vote is delayed by a big accident in the A9. Hopefully the vote will stop the Scottish government only thinking about the central belt bubble!!! The majority in Glasgow was small when contrasted with Edinburgh and Aberdeen too - yet a lot of fuss is being made of it. Hopefully a good day for British politics

    Maybe the non-central belt bubble should strike for independence to escape the evil government in the south-east!
  • Scotland. I'm embarrassed for you.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,853
    Scotland. I'm embarrassed for you.
    I guess this means you're allowed to stay then. ;-)
  • Veronese68 wrote:
    Scotland. I'm embarrassed for you.
    I guess this means you're allowed to stay then. ;-)

    The people have indeed spoken.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • now the fun will really start!!! fwiw my thought is that Salmond will see this as Day 1 of the next campaign... he can negotiate hard as if no agreement is reached he can blame Westminster and rush to another Poll. Cameron will not be able to deliver on his vague promises without buying off his own backbenchers and if he slips in the polls they will want rid of him.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    TWH, I am really happy that your Country saw sense and you are able to say and commute by bike in the UK.

    I'm chuffed for you mate!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,769
    Just to remind you, DDD
    map8.jpg


    The purple bit is were I am.

    DDD you're in the red bit.

    It's the pale blue bit which seeks independence.

    Hope that clarifies.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    No wonder DDD gets confused.
    That map would have made much more sense had -
    England been white.
    Wales been red.
    Ireland been green.

    Flags colours before anyone gets even more confused and outraged.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    No wonder DDD gets confused.
    That map would have made much more sense had -
    England been white.
    Wales been red.
    Ireland been green.

    Flags colours before anyone gets even more confused and outraged.


    What colour would Northern Ireland be?


    Edit to add :wink:
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,419
    What colour would Northern Ireland be?


    Edit to add :wink:
    Red and white. With a bit of green to keep some happy. I will also give you a :wink:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.