Friday Thread: If Scotland vote YES will TWH have to leave?

UndercoverElephant

Interesting article giving the international view of the currency debate:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingl ... -it-dirty/

bompington

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Interesting article giving an international view of the currency debate:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingl ... -it-dirty/

FTFY - other commentators point out the massive problems with debt and other financial and economic issues that Ireland suffered after independence.

aberdeen_lune

bompington wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Interesting article giving an international view of the currency debate:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingl ... -it-dirty/

FTFY - other commentators point out the massive problems with debt and other financial and economic issues that Ireland suffered after independence.

There was a worldwide recession in the twenties.

aberdeen_lune

Rolf F wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I'm sure we will all get along wonderfully after the split. I do feel sorry for the anyone stuck with Cameron & Co though.

There's no point feeling sorry for yourself! Now cheer up!

Very good and if you take your argument a stage further if it's a no vote we may end up out of Europe in a few years after Cameron has his referendum. What a depressing though stuck with the Tories and out of Europe.

YIMan

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I'm sure we will all get along wonderfully after the split. I do feel sorry for the anyone stuck with Cameron & Co though.

There's no point feeling sorry for yourself! Now cheer up!

Very good and if you take your argument a stage further if it's a no vote we may end up out of Europe in a few years after Cameron has his referendum. What a depressing though stuck with the Tories and out of Europe.

I see it the other way round.

If it's a no vote, less chance at least of being stuck with the Tories.

If it's a yes vote, "the people who happen to live in Scotland" are "alright Jock" but everyone else is definitely stuck with the Tories.

aberdeen_lune

Yes that could be the way it goes. You could move north.

The Rookie

Rather be stuck with Cameron and Co than go back to the complete Horlicks made of the country under Bliar and Brown.....who funnily enough seemed unable to not copy the mistakes of the previous labour shower of Wilson and
Callaghan (complete with unelected PM), it was new Labour, old Labour mess.......and ever will be.

tailwindhome

*bump*

meanredspider

Did anyone hear the professor on R4 this evening? Interesting research. Basically the opinions of English, Welsh and Scots are remarkably similar on a wide range if political and social issues. The interesting part was that the Scots think that they think very differently from the English (even though they don't) - explains a lot

rick_chasey

meanredspider wrote:

Did anyone hear the professor on R4 this evening? Interesting research. Basically the opinions of English, Welsh and Scots are remarkably similar on a wide range if political and social issues. The interesting part was that the Scots think that they think very differently from the English (even though they don't) - explains a lot

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

UndercoverElephant

Rick Chasey wrote:

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

I think a lot of politicians fall into the same trap, that's the problem. Except they mistake London for the entirety of the UK.

Was talking to my Dad, he's an ex-Cockney who's been living near Middlesbrough for the past fifty years. His view was that Scotland need to become independent in order to shake up the UK from the economic London-and-the-rest-of-us cycle we've been in since Thatcher.

roger_merriman

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

I think a lot of politicians fall into the same trap, that's the problem. Except they mistake London for the entirety of the UK.

Was talking to my Dad, he's an ex-Cockney who's been living near Middlesbrough for the past fifty years. His view was that Scotland need to become independent in order to shake up the UK from the economic London-and-the-rest-of-us cycle we've been in since Thatcher.

And media, local (london) news gets trotted out as national news, even if something newsworthy does happen the media often don't report it, if its not London/SE England.

meanredspider

Well, I've cast my vote :twisted:

YIMan

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Did anyone hear the professor on R4 this evening? Interesting research. Basically the opinions of English, Welsh and Scots are remarkably similar on a wide range if political and social issues. The interesting part was that the Scots think that they think very differently from the English (even though they don't) - explains a lot

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

Hence a massive kick in the teeth for "the rest of England" for those voting "Yes". Or "We're alright Jock" as I call it.

UndercoverElephant

YIMan wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Did anyone hear the professor on R4 this evening? Interesting research. Basically the opinions of English, Welsh and Scots are remarkably similar on a wide range if political and social issues. The interesting part was that the Scots think that they think very differently from the English (even though they don't) - explains a lot

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

Hence a massive kick in the teeth for "the rest of England" for those voting "Yes". Or "We're alright Jock" as I call it.

I would hope that a yes vote by Scotland may have a knock-on effect to improve the way that the industrial wastelands are treated. It's a vain hope, I guess, but a hope none the less. Damn sure that a no vote won't change much for anyone.

YIMan

UndercoverElephant wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Did anyone hear the professor on R4 this evening? Interesting research. Basically the opinions of English, Welsh and Scots are remarkably similar on a wide range if political and social issues. The interesting part was that the Scots think that they think very differently from the English (even though they don't) - explains a lot

When discussing England, researchers and analysts would do well to separate London from the rest of England....

The impression I get is that when your average Scot talks about England, they're actually talking about London & Westminster.

Hence a massive kick in the teeth for "the rest of England" for those voting "Yes". Or "We're alright Jock" as I call it.

I would hope that a yes vote by Scotland may have a knock-on effect to improve the way that the industrial wastelands are treated. It's a vain hope, I guess, but a hope none the less. Damn sure that a no vote won't change much for anyone.

Stuck with an overwhelming Tory majority? Some hope.....

meanredspider

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

rjsterry

meanredspider wrote:

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

How long until an independent Scotland appears on a UK development aid spreadsheet? :twisted:

UndercoverElephant

meanredspider wrote:

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

Well, there's the ability to implement similar tax, legislation and regulations as other small, successful countries - like Singapore, for instance. We already have the rich tradition in finance, engineering and banking, there really is no reason to believe that all of this will simply disappear. The Central Belt and Aberdeen in particular have extremely high levels of GDP per capita and the country would be small enough to have proper scrutiny of its governmental functions.

Plus there's the oil, at least for the transition period.

greg66_tri_v2.0

rjsterry wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

How long until an independent Scotland appears on a UK development aid spreadsheet? :twisted:

I'll go with a week on Monday.

greg66_tri_v2.0

UndercoverElephant wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

Well, there's the ability to implement similar tax, legislation and regulations as other small, successful countries - like Singapore, for instance. We already have the rich tradition in finance, engineering and banking, there really is no reason to believe that all of this will simply disappear. The Central Belt and Aberdeen in particular have extremely high levels of GDP per capita and the country would be small enough to have proper scrutiny of its governmental functions.

Plus there's the oil, at least for the transition period.

Err, finance and banking companies presently in Scotland have already said they will be off if there is a Yes vote.

And just run through how you are going to emulate Singapore, with its low tax rates, whilst maintaining public sector spending and reducing Scotland's share of the debt. Have a ponder of this (doing the rounds; I can't claim credit for it):



Do people in Scotland not realise that Salmond is making promises that he can't hope to keep? Or do they simply not care? It amazes me that a nation with a reputation for thrift and financial care and conservatism has converted itself to preferring a handout Nirvana with not the first clue or care as to how it is to be paid for.

surrey_commuter

UndercoverElephant wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Well, there'll be all the businesses leaving Scotland looking for a new home.

Local successful businessman near me has moved as much money out of Scotland as he can. I simply can't see why people think Scotland will be more successful business-wise with independence - it seems to defy all logic.

Well, there's the ability to implement similar tax, legislation and regulations as other small, successful countries - like Singapore, for instance. We already have the rich tradition in finance, engineering and banking, there really is no reason to believe that all of this will simply disappear. The Central Belt and Aberdeen in particular have extremely high levels of GDP per capita and the country would be small enough to have proper scrutiny of its governmental functions.

Plus there's the oil, at least for the transition period.

There are many reasons why Singapore is so successful and replicating their model is not practical. You would have to assume that Finance/Banking will almost instantly.

I agree with engineering etc and despite what I have written above there is no reason why you would not be alright. The current flight of money is due to uncertainty.

Gaining independence is like wrestling a gorila you do not stop when you are tired you stop when the sassenach b'stards are tired. Now is the time to MTFU and ignore the bullying threats of dire consequences.

anonymousblackfg

Good diagram.

In addition to business, why as an academic would you remain if there is less funding for universities and the rich kids at univerrsities in the south are paying in £9k a year to support your research?

Do remember Singapore is pretty much a dictatorship so a good bit of policing helps keep the success in line, good luck with that one in the East End of Glasgow.

As for lower tax rates, I use businesses with back offices in Scotland, so does the dorris (who's a sweaty) she's outsourced work to Dublin. The debate we were having was that if I had to a split decision on transactional costs/skill set/experience/stability/tax (though noted costs and stability would massively be in Ireland favour for the next 5 years) between where I put send the work my view is that brits after Scotland leave would much rather instruct Ireland over Scotland.

rjsterry

All this talk of Singapore and Norway, but not much mention of the last bit of these isles to go it alone. I think even the most ardent Irish Nationalist would acknowledge that it has been a bumpy ride over the last 90-odd years, albeit without the support of North Sea oil.

walkingbootweather

I understand why Scots would want to decide their own destiny rather than accept governance from Westminster - many of us that live outside London feel the same.

Pragmatically, if Scotland gets independence they will continue to use the pound, although having interest rates etc. dictated by England is a big risk.

What I don't get is surely there are economies of scale in doing things together. It will cost more for Scotland to run own armed forces, Foreign Office, Passport Office, Embassy network, Job Centre, Highways Agency, Ordnance Survey, Met Office, Environment Agency, Regulation bodies etc. etc. How are the Scots going to be better off once they have paid for all these things?

Investment and risk in searching for North Sea Oil and Gas and establishing infrastructure was British. I don't think that it is a given than an independent Scotland alone would enjoy the profits now.

Scotland is a diverse country with a range of very different challenges (wealthy cities, deprived neighbourhoods, remote communities, high reliance on niche industries). Some groups might do OK under an independent Scotland but some must certainly be neglected. Like all things there will be winners and losers - if you believe Alex Salmon everyone will be a winner and this just doesn't seem possible.

To all my scottish friends - Good luck and choose wisely.

YIMan

walkingbootweather wrote:

I understand why Scots would want to decide their own destiny rather than accept governance from Westminster - many of us that live outside London feel the same.

It is not the Scots. It is "the people that live in Scotland". 800,000 Scots living in other parts of the UK have no say in the matter.

The people that live in Scotland can decide their own destiny by joining forces with other like-minded people in the UK, rather than spitting their dummy out so they can purse their own selfish, minority ideals.

tailwindhome

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Do people in Scotland not realise that Salmond is making promises that he can't hope to keep?

Do people in England not realise that the people in Scotland no longer give a monkey's what the people in England think.

YIMan

TailWindHome wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Do people in Scotland not realise that Salmond is making promises that he can't hope to keep?

Do people in England not realise that the people in Scotland no longer give a monkey's what the people in England think.

Does that include the hundreds of thousands of Scots living in England? Or only the "English"?

aberdeen_lune

My yes vote is getting posted in the morning. Loving the mad panic from Westminster now.

meanredspider

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

My yes vote is getting posted in the morning. Loving the mad panic from Westminster now.

What are your thoughts on the likes of Raigmore hospital and its staffing crisis? There are at least 5 consultants in my village, only one of which is Scottish. Raigmore already has real problems in recruiting skilled staff. Do you think your Yes vote will improve the situation? If so, how?

Same goes for any and all specialist skills in the Highlands.