the end for Wiggo ?

Richmond Racer

Indeed, Salsiccia, but the fact is that Sky also didnt want Wiggins riding because of the high potential of tension and splits in the camp. So from Brailsford and Co, as well as Froome's perspective, they're all happy days with the way this has worked out.

Wiggins is keeping his counsel. He's not giving interviews*, he's just training solo in Mallorca and continuing his knee rehab. He's not going around complaining his fate, and given how unpredictable he can be that's probably the most that can be expected from someone who must be utterly gutted by the way his season's gone


*though metal hats to the ready when he does

Macaloon

Richmond Racer wrote:

Put yourself in someone else's shoes. Think you could think in those terms if it happened to you? So easy when its someone else, all seems so black and white. Empathy, man!

At first I would behave like this.


But then I'd hope that somebody would have a word, give me slap, and I'd get on with being a superstar sportsman, with different goals than before.

Being off the pace this year could have been played as that's what happens to normal human physiology. I hope he doesn't leave because outside of the top steps of GC podiums (unless TT-heavy parcours) he could do some real damage in a more attacking unit.

Richmond Racer

well, its only been a month since he abandoned the Giro so...

(my crazy idea of him going to Garmin, is in further development)

salsiccia1

Richmond Racer wrote:

Indeed, Salciccia, but the fact is that Sky also didnt want Wiggins riding because of the high potential of tension and splits in the camp. So from Brailsford and Co, as well as Froome's perspective, they're pretty happy about the way this has worked out.

Wiggins is keeping his counsel. He's not giving interviews, he's just training solo in Mallorca. He's not going around complaining his fate, or bad-mouthing anyone.

Did they really not want Wiggins riding? I've not seen anything to suggest that is definitely the case, though I'm happy to be corrected.

There's been a lot of people saying how poorly Wiggo has been treated, but I don't think that's the case, it is just Brailsford being Brailsford - making a completely rational and emotionless decision on who is best placed to accomplish the team goal.

Macaloon

Richmond Racer wrote:

well, its only been a month since he abandoned the Giro so...

(my crazy idea of him going to Garmin, is in further development)

Would you like to comment on the underlying pathology behind Wiggo's crack-chafe? Is he really complaining that his numbers justify protection and that Sky are betraying him just like Froome did last year: that his reputation demands that the team overlook the numbers? Why hasn't he delivered on the promise he made last year to support Froome?

Richmond Racer

A couple of leaks from source close to the team that even way before the Giro there was concern inside the Sky camp that they were very worried about tensions and splits on the team bus during the Tour, because the reality is that Wiggins and Froome absolutely detest each other. It doesnt come out strongly in interviews, but there is bad blood between them - and its mutual.

Richmond Racer

Macaloon wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

well, its only been a month since he abandoned the Giro so...

(my crazy idea of him going to Garmin, is in further development)

Would you like to comment on the underlying pathology behind Wiggo's crack-chafe? Is he really complaining that his numbers justify protection and that Sky are betraying him just like Froome did last year: that his reputation demands that the team overlook the numbers? Why hasn't he delivered on the promise he made last year to support Froome?

Again, you're missing the point. Its so easy to see things black and white when you're not the athlete in question. You dont have all the emotion of it happening to you. Its possible that Wiggins is in the middle of processing all of this at the moment, and will come out fighting for that Worlds TT.

I'd put a question to you. Why didnt Brailsford name Froome as the outright leader from the very start of this year? Why did he only do so a week into the Giro, and after Froome had thrown a fit after the Wiggins press conference?

Think there's any possibility that Brailsford had been making different noises to them each in private? To Froome: 'you're the leader, Chris, no question'. To Wiggins: 'let's see how things go, Brad, and we'll decide nearer the time'. Because by not supporting Froome in public as the outright Tour leader, and making all those vague noises in interviews about deciding the team nearer the time, based on performances and numbers, thats sure as heck what it looks like.

ps thoroughly enjoying this discussion btw. Feeling on the feisty side this morning

salsiccia1

Richmond Racer wrote:

I'd put a question to you. Why didnt Brailsford name Froome as the outright leader from the very start of this year? Why did he only do so a week into the Giro, and after Froome had thrown a fit after the Wiggins press conference?

Think there's any possibility that Brailsford had been making different noises to them each in private? To Froome: 'you're the leader, Chris, no question'. To Wiggins: 'let's see how things go, Brad, and we'll decide nearer the time'. Because by not supporting Froome in public as the outright Tour leader, and making all those vague noises in interviews about deciding the team nearer the time, based on performances and numbers, thats sure as heck what it looks like.

I thought Froome was clearly marked out as being the leader for the Tour, from late last year, and Wiggins was targeting the Giro. I thought the only uncertainty came from Wiggins himself when he said he wanted to do the Giro-Tour double.

ddraver

What would either rider have gained by knowing they were leader for the tour in january?

Nothing, the only people who really cared about this until the start of last week were people who wanted to write blog posts on it and generally whinge about Sky.

Richmond Racer

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

I'd put a question to you. Why didnt Brailsford name Froome as the outright leader from the very start of this year? Why did he only do so a week into the Giro, and after Froome had thrown a fit after the Wiggins press conference?

Think there's any possibility that Brailsford had been making different noises to them each in private? To Froome: 'you're the leader, Chris, no question'. To Wiggins: 'let's see how things go, Brad, and we'll decide nearer the time'. Because by not supporting Froome in public as the outright Tour leader, and making all those vague noises in interviews about deciding the team nearer the time, based on performances and numbers, thats sure as heck what it looks like.

I thought Froome was clearly marked out as being the leader for the Tour, from late last year, and Wiggins was targeting the Giro. I thought the only uncertainty came from Wiggins himself when he said he wanted to do the Giro-Tour double.

In true Sky-style there's always been a bit of ambiguity in public utterances. So the official utterances were 'Froome's concentrating on the Tour' together with 'Brad's targetting the Giro but also to come out of it in fantastic form for the Tour'. At no point was it 'Froome's the outright leader for the Tour' - until Brailsford's pronouncement in May when he had a gun to his head. IMO it was all classic Brailsford tactics at making them compete against each other to raise their respective performances.

Classic example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ap ... m-kerrison

Macaloon

Richmond Racer wrote:

In true Sky-style there's always been a bit of ambiguity in public utterances. So the official utterances were 'Froome's concentrating on the Tour' together with 'Brad's targetting the Giro but also to come out of it in fantastic form for the Tour'. At no point was it 'Froome's the outright leader for the Tour' - until Brailsford's pronouncement in May when he had a gun to his head. IMO it was all classic Brailsford tactics at making them compete against each other to raise their respective performances.

Classic example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ap ... m-kerrison

(Edit: Forgot to address your point directly. It seems pretty standard that teams won't be completely open in their public statements and may even :shock: make ambiguous public statements. Most people won't get lathered up if private sentiments differ. The only thing known for sure is that Froome now has all the toys and Brad's got a dose of the Costas.)

Here we go with the "it's complicated"s :P And I agree that the current situation is a little messy and sub-optimal. [But at least Brad's playing along with the injury narrative by keeping his training so low key ]

But surely Froome leading the Tour this year was only conditional on Froome proving himself on the road as team leader, backed-up by suitable training numbers. There's not much more he could have done in that respect. If this is agreed, all we're talking about is Wiggo's reaction? No?

And what I'm most interested in is why he has never reconciled himself to riding a support role (with added sweetners perhaps). Why on earth campaign, even through surrogates, for a leadership job he was never going to get? Extravagantly bad PR even by Wiggo's standards.

Tom Butcher

My impression since last July has always been that Froome would lead the Tour team in 2014 and that's been reinforced several times since. Agree that was always going to be conditional on form, as with any rider, but like most others I had Wiggins pencilled in for the Giro and Froome for the Tour.

Assuming we didn't imagine all this it's come from Sky - officially or otherwise - so I don't really buy the notion that leadership was undecided until recently - it's been decided for the best part of a year and that is why Wiggo's comments pre-giro caused the stir they did.

Was this some Brailsford master plan - i doubt it. I think the plan was very likely Brad wins the Giro and "settles" for that leaving Froome to win the Tour. In other words exactly what was coming out of Sky until b
Brad put a stick in the spokes. The situation changed and Brailsford reacted to the new circumstances - don't think we need to look further than that.

Richmond Racer

And what I'm most interested in is why he has never reconciled himself to riding a support role (with added sweetners perhaps). Why on earth campaign, even through surrogates, for a leadership job he was never going to get? Extravagantly bad PR even by Wiggo's standards


'Campaigning through surrogates'? Thats Brailsford and Kerrison you're talking about. Because they're the people who've come out with these vague utterances all year. They can be counted on as representing the Sky strategy, I'm pretty confident.

The strategy was to keep both Froome and Wiggins on their toes. Dont tell Wiggo outright he has no chance whatsoever of getting the Tour gig, keep him motivated. And to be honest if Wiggins had crushed Catalunya and Trentino, I'm not so certain Brailsford would have succumbed to the pressure from Froome to make that public statement a week into the Giro.

But he didnt. And he had a shocking Giro. And Froome's been on an absolute stormer.

Richmond Racer

No more posting from me on this subject as I've managed to bore myself.

Right, Nats TTs today!

VerwoodAsh

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Indeed, Salciccia, but the fact is that Sky also didnt want Wiggins riding because of the high potential of tension and splits in the camp. So from Brailsford and Co, as well as Froome's perspective, they're pretty happy about the way this has worked out.

Wiggins is keeping his counsel. He's not giving interviews, he's just training solo in Mallorca. He's not going around complaining his fate, or bad-mouthing anyone.

Did they really not want Wiggins riding? I've not seen anything to suggest that is definitely the case, though I'm happy to be corrected.

There's been a lot of people saying how poorly Wiggo has been treated, but I don't think that's the case, it is just Brailsford being Brailsford - making a completely rational and emotionless decision on who is best placed to accomplish the team goal.

Apart from Michelle Cound couldn't keep her trap shut and had to tweet that the two of them wouldn't be riding in the same team weeks before the Giro. As how I read it, the deal was sorted months ago, Brad wasn't happy but Michelle was told by Fenton and she couldn't wait to gloat about it.

PuttyKnees

It shouldn't be a surprise that Wiggins wouldn't want to be a support rider. There are very few who have reached the top who'd be willing to take a secondary role, particularly in such a high profile event. As this unfolds, I find it more and more difficult to like Froome and there will be a fair amount of schadenfreude when he comes a cropper of the Brailsford adoption of Positivism as the MO of cycling.

salsiccia1

PuttyKnees wrote:

It shouldn't be a surprise that Wiggins wouldn't want to be a support rider. There are very few who have reached the top who'd be willing to take a secondary role, particularly in such a high profile event. As this unfolds, I find it more and more difficult to like Froome and there will be a fair amount of schadenfreude when he comes a cropper of the Brailsford adoption of Positivism as the MO of cycling.

I can understand Wiggins being disappointed; what I don't understand is the dislike of Froome, as if he is acting like some Machiavellian puppeteer.

PuttyKnees

Well, I wouldn't say I dislike him, more I just don't really care for him. He presents a really boring snooker like personality in interviews, whilst at the same time we get an insight through twitter that he's moving behind the scenes, neither of which makes him a likeable character. In the end of course, it doesn't really matter whether I like him or not!

greeny12

Richmond Racer wrote:

He was told in the days leading up to Sir Richard of Moore's article in the Dail Fail, which broke the story that he'd been told he'd dropped even further down the pecking order.

I can't find that piece on the Mail site, anybody got a link?

Richmond Racer

greeny12 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

He was told in the days leading up to Sir Richard of Moore's article in the Dail Fail, which broke the story that he'd been told he'd dropped even further down the pecking order.

I can't find that piece on the Mail site, anybody got a link?

Having to drop in a link for the Fail does go against the grain, but it was me who mentioned the article, I s'spose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... issue.html

mfin

Richmond Racer wrote:

Having to drop in a link for the Fail does go against the grain, but it was me who mentioned the article, I s'spose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... issue.html

My Dad's taken to reading the Daily Mail in his older age, god knows how many times I've tried to get him to drop it and read a newspaper instead, not reading anything at all would be better than reading the Daily F**king Mail as I call it.

Richmond Racer

mfin wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Having to drop in a link for the Fail does go against the grain, but it was me who mentioned the article, I s'spose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... issue.html

My Dad's taken to reading the Daily Mail in his older age, god knows how many times I've tried to get him to drop it and read a newspaper instead, not reading anything at all would be better than reading the Daily F**king Mail as I call it.

My dad used to read the Sun. At least you know where you stand with the Sun.

greeny12

Richmond Racer wrote:

greeny12 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

He was told in the days leading up to Sir Richard of Moore's article in the Dail Fail, which broke the story that he'd been told he'd dropped even further down the pecking order.

I can't find that piece on the Mail site, anybody got a link?

Having to drop in a link for the Fail does go against the grain, but it was me who mentioned the article, I s'spose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... issue.html

Ta

Le Commentateur

Salsiccia1 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

It shouldn't be a surprise that Wiggins wouldn't want to be a support rider. There are very few who have reached the top who'd be willing to take a secondary role, particularly in such a high profile event. As this unfolds, I find it more and more difficult to like Froome and there will be a fair amount of schadenfreude when he comes a cropper of the Brailsford adoption of Positivism as the MO of cycling.

I can understand Wiggins being disappointed; what I don't understand is the dislike of Froome, as if he is acting like some Machiavellian puppeteer.

The whole thing is a fascinating example of managing change in a team of ambitious people.

Clarke_111

Interesting thread to read through on a dull Friday morning...

I'm inclined to agree with some of the above (Tom Butcher's post I think). From afar (i.e in the media from someone with no conncection to the team) it has always looked like the plan to have Froome lead this years tour. Yes DB was a little vague about this at times, but cycling is not a definate sport, Frome could have 'done a Schleck' and broken his collarbone/hip or what ever at the Daupine and been out of the Tour. It makes sense to keep the options open, and it probably isn't easy managing the enigma that is Bradley Wiggins - keeping him motivated would likely take careful 'management'.

It seems that most of the mixed messages have come directly from Wiggins who was focusing on the Giro and not bothered by multiple Tour wins, then wating to defend the Tour, then wanting to win both.

I am sure I read somewhere that he said that if he couldn't win it he would like to come 2nd to Froome (in a reversal from last year) - think that was in Procycling this month. Maybe the final straw for him was Porte being selected as Froome's lieutenant - although on form and numbers this decision makes sense, especially given that Porte is a proven team player, and Froomies best pal. Having Wiggins along would always be a risk (even if it is just upsetting Shimano in a press conference!). All being said Wiggins could just have been nursing a knee injury after all. What ever happens with his palmares he'll always be a legend. I'd like to see him win a stripey skin suit to add to that long list to be honest.

ad_snow

Sky have just announced Wiggo will be riding the Tour of Britain in preparation for the World Time Trial Championships.. he's not done quite yet

Richmond Racer

ad_snow wrote:

Sky have just announced Wiggo will be riding the Tour of Britain in preparation for the World Time Trial Championships.. he's not done quite yet

But first, he'll be riding the Tour of Poland...which has a cheeky TT this year...

FocusZing

"Sir Bradley Wiggins suggests he may
never ride Tour de France again.

• 'I don't think I'm prepared to make those
sacrifices again'
• Concedes he now sees Chris Froome as
Team Sky's leader".

"If I do anything else after this it will be
stuff I want to do, stuff that I'm willing to
train hard and sacrifice for really. For me
it was always about winning the Tour, that
was a huge thing for me, a huge journey;
I've been doing that four years. I don't
know if I'd want to go through all that
again to be honest. I've always had other
goals and there are other things I'd like to
try and do."

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/ ... ance-again

I understand and respect him for that, he has done very well, achieved his goals setup his family.

tailwindhome

Richmond Racer wrote:

ad_snow wrote:

Sky have just announced Wiggo will be riding the Tour of Britain in preparation for the World Time Trial Championships.. he's not done quite yet

But first, he'll be riding the Tour of Poland...which has a cheeky TT this year...

Sometimes if you give the BBQ a good poke you can get another couple of sausages done on the dying embers....

'I don't think I'm prepared to make those sacrifices again'

See my post above

Richmond Racer

Would those be Polish sausages, kielbasa, TWH?