the end for Wiggo ?

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Comments

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,887
    mike6 wrote:

    If I held the view that all pro cyclists are suspect I would not watch Pro cycling.

    I think there are two schools of thought for the cycling fan:

    1. The dirty past is long gone and the dawn of clean cycling has arrived. Sit back and enjoy the racing.
    2. The dirty past and the number of false dawns indicate that all cyclists should be treated with suspicion. No idea who is guilty and who is not, so sit back and enjoy the racing.
  • mr_poll
    mr_poll Posts: 1,547
    TheBigBean wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    If I held the view that all pro cyclists are suspect I would not watch Pro cycling.

    I think there are two schools of thought for the cycling fan:

    1. The dirty past is long gone and the dawn of clean cycling has arrived. Sit back and enjoy the racing.
    2. The dirty past and the number of false dawns indicate that all cyclists should be treated with suspicion. No idea who is guilty and who is not, so sit back and enjoy the racing.

    or

    3. Human nature means some dishonest people will do anything to give them a competitive advantage and as cycling has a history and still has a number of "facilitators" anything is possible. Therefore I will keep that in mind for any cyclist who raises suspicion such as: riding a climb faster than previous known dopers/comes from no where/attacking like fresh late in a GT when ever other rider is goosed etc etc - Otherwise I will assume they are clean and enjoy my racing bitterness free.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    "Healthy scepticism"??? I believe the best of everyone, until evidence to the contrary. Wiggins has done nothing to even raise suspicion.

    I'm quite a bit more switched on to reality than that. Whatever works for you though.

    No, Its called being cynical, possibly even paranoid.

    If I have no reason to doubt someone, I don't. Like most people.

    It is you that have the problem, life is too short to have an attitude like yours.

    How many years after a rider you like wins a race do you allow them to finally accept it as a "clean" win?
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    mike6 wrote:
    No, Its called being cynical, possibly even paranoid.

    Melodramatic much?!
    If I have no reason to doubt someone, I don't. Like most people.

    So open your eyes then. You think GC is clean? You think Wiggins won clean? Against convicted dopers?
    It is you that have the problem, life is too short to have an attitude like yours.

    No. My attitude is the best one to have. Enjoy it, but don't believe it.
    How many years after a rider you like wins a race do you allow them to finally accept it as a "clean" win?

    Depends who the rider is and what type of rider they are.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    To think it's clean is wishful.

    Cleaner perhaps.

    Hardly an eyelid is batted when someone is done, Cycling is the only sport where there isn't an outcry, or even much surprise. Maybe that's partly down to history, but the cheats will always find a way round tests, even if it's harder than ever to do so.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    mike6 wrote:
    No, Its called being cynical.
    If I have no reason to doubt someone, I don't. Like most people.
    How many years after a rider you like wins a race, do you allow them to finally accept it as "clean" win?
    It grows every year (as you may know) from Zero to what is it now 19 years. (EPO that is)
    From being gulible and led by Cycling weekly to seeing and realising two years later that Juice was involved and being sceptical and cynical ever since. (ie 50/50 with Philippe Gilbert following the same feelings with Davide Rebellon)

    On Topic
    squired wrote:
    If I was Wiggins and the knee thing was just a story being put out by Team Sky (would you be doing 4 hours training each day if you had a knee injury?) I would be going to the National Championships looking to make a big statement and win. What better way to make a point?
    I too have this feeling that Wiggins could be training for the national Championships next week to be able to have the media wondering whatever are they doing to a reigning champion this season or in the future. ??
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • RoadPainter
    RoadPainter Posts: 375
    People talking about Wiggo getting knighted for his Tour win - rubbish!

    He got an OBE after Athens (probably overly-generous) and was upgraded to CBE after Beijing.

    The only step after that was a knighthood - so he got his knighthood for the latest achievements in his career.

    I do think he's clean, according to the rules. I am very unsure of altitude tents etc, but they are really only mimicking conditions in other parts of the world (where people can legally train & rest) so it can't really be banned. But it does mean that big pockets are more likely to lead to wins.
    Given his background, the climb times and the extras like altitude tents & specialist coaches, I believe you've got to be massively cynical to think he was dirty.

    MR - you say there was no evidence against Big George, but the climb times made it pretty obvious. Only a fool thought he was clean.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I think MR really really wanted George to be clean...in a Frenchie/bertie, Thom/Lars Bak kind of way...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    "Healthy scepticism"??? I believe the best of everyone, until evidence to the contrary. Wiggins has done nothing to even raise suspicion.

    I'm quite a bit more switched on to reality than that. Whatever works for you though.

    Love to see you stand toe to toe with Wiggo and voice your suspicion of him.

    I feel you are one of them he described in his TDF press conference last year.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Gazzaputt wrote:
    Love to see you stand toe to toe with Wiggo and voice your suspicion of him.

    I'd be quite happy to. Am I supposed to be scared of him or something? Give me a break.
    I feel you are one of them he described in his TDF press conference last year.

    That's an incredibly stupid statement to make given you know f*ck all about me, where I came from, what I've been through or what I've achieved.

    You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    RoadPainter wrote:
    MR - you say there was no evidence against Big George, but the climb times made it pretty obvious. Only a fool thought he was clean.

    Nah, when I started watching the Tour, I was naive and still believed in the magic. He's always been my favourite rider and always will be. I think you're being more than a little unfair though; even as late as last year you couldn't get 2 people on this forum to agree whether LA was a cheating cnut and look at how some of you reformed deniers behave now! Shocking.

    At least I'm consistent.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    ddraver wrote:
    I think MR really really wanted George to be clean...in a Frenchie/bertie, Thom/Lars Bak kind of way...

    Nah, I think the truth of the matter is that once I realised LA was dirty, it was logical to assume his Team, or the majority of his Team, were as well. Obviously I'm disappointed, but we're all human and humans are flawed.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    I think MR really really wanted George to be clean...in a Frenchie/bertie, Thom/Lars Bak kind of way...

    Nah, I think the truth of the matter is that once I realised LA was dirty, it was logical to assume his Team, or the majority of his Team, were as well. Obviously I'm disappointed, but we're all human and humans are flawed.

    A second string classics rider winning a high mountain stage in the Tour wasn't a tip off?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    A second string classics rider winning a high mountain stage in the Tour wasn't a tip off?

    That win pre-dates my returned interest in the sport. Looking at it with the benefit of hindsight it's obviously questionable, but any top rider can have a great day. Are domestiques not allowed to win a stage? Should we question JVS's PR win?
  • thamacdaddy
    thamacdaddy Posts: 590
    Joelsim wrote:
    To think it's clean is wishful.

    Cleaner perhaps.

    Hardly an eyelid is batted when someone is done, Cycling is the only sport where there isn't an outcry, or even much surprise. Maybe that's partly down to history, but the cheats will always find a way round tests, even if it's harder than ever to do so.

    I think this is totally off. You need to look at the questions around tennis players and elite level footballers.

    If this is being done in cycling do we honestly not think that other sports with equal high demands on the body for longer seasons in the year are not doing it? I think the fact is other sports where a lot of money is involved are not being as thorough in trying to find any problems with doping. http://www.london24.com/sport/arsenal/n ... _1_1890940

    Anyway this being said I just don't buy wiggo is doping thing, it's doesn't fit. If he ever got found guilty after all he said I think I would stop watching the sport altogether.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    A second string classics rider winning a high mountain stage in the Tour wasn't a tip off?

    That win pre-dates my returned interest in the sport. Looking at it with the benefit of hindsight it's obviously questionable, but any top rider can have a great day. Are domestiques not allowed to win a stage? Should we question JVS's PR win?


    I certainly wouldn't place it in the same category as a man employed to be a motor on the flat in the tour, who weighs 80kg winning a MTF. Largely becuase he got away because everybody else wanted Cancellara to shut it down and he wanted everbody else to.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I certainly wouldn't place it in the same category as a man employed to be a motor on the flat in the tour, who weighs 80kg winning a MTF. Largely becuase he got away because everybody else wanted Cancellara to shut it down and he wanted everbody else to.

    That's racing though. I don't want to dissect each example in detail because I was making a more general point. I don't think either win was impossible - unlike Ricco's attack during the 2008 Tour (can't remember if it was the Super Besse stage or the Col d'Aspin one) which was as blatant as you're likely to get.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    Should we question JVS's PR win?

    Not when he has had 3 top 10 finishes at Roubaix along with his win.
  • Duncanandthemachine
    Duncanandthemachine Posts: 263
    No. My attitude is the best one to have. Enjoy it, but don't believe it.

    I'm a fan of Wiggins, and I was respectful of your argument until I reached the above quote.

    Dude - watch out for fact and opinion, you just over stepped the mark
  • Duncanandthemachine
    Duncanandthemachine Posts: 263
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    No. My attitude is the best one to have. Enjoy it, but don't believe it.
    I'm a fan of Wiggins, and I was respectful of your argument until I reached the above quote.

    Dude - watch out for fact and opinion, you just over stepped the mark.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,887
    Everyone here is a fan and fans wear rose tinted glasses when looking at their favourite riders. That's sport: pantomime heros and villains.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Not when he has had 3 top 10 finishes at Roubaix along with his win.

    I'm not questioning it, I was making a point. Just in case that isn't clear. For the 2nd or 3rd time.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Put Wiggins, Froome and Sky in the title and you have a 5 page plus thread guaranteed.

    If only people had opinions about more things the forum would be a better place.

    #skytogetpounded
    Contador is the Greatest
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Duncanandthemachine wrote:
    Dude - watch out for fact and opinion, you just over stepped the mark

    I really didn't. It's OK for you to think otherwise though obviously.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Put Wiggins, Froome and Sky in the title and you have a 5 page plus thread guaranteed.

    If only people had opinions about more things the forum would be a better place.

    #skytogetpounded

    The fact that we ve been talking about Geroge Hincapie for 2 pages escaped you?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Not when he has had 3 top 10 finishes at Roubaix along with his win.

    I'm not questioning it, I was making a point. Just in case that isn't clear. For the 2nd or 3rd time.

    It's not a very good one though, is it?

    But, for what it's worth, I don't believe that Hincapie's stage win at Pla d'Adet is a sure sign of doping. He sat on a break all day which had a lead of up to 18 minutes and 7 minutes on the final climb of the day. As you pointed out, it wasn't like Ricco on the Col d'Aspin.
  • rickyrider
    rickyrider Posts: 294
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    Duncanandthemachine wrote:
    Dude - watch out for fact and opinion, you just over stepped the mark

    I really didn't. It's OK for you to think otherwise though obviously.

    Been following this thread and although I'd describe myself as an optimistic type who likes to see the good in people, I can't help but see where The Mad Rapper is coming from. Given everything that the sport has been through in recent years, it seems a big stretch to have complete confidence that all 'our boys' are clean because they say they are, they've never been caught, and Sky makes a big song and dance about being clean. FWIW I think they probably are, but I wouldn't go any further than probably. Where big business and big money is involved, there will ALWAYS be people looking to gain unfair advantage - always have been and always will be. Simple as.

    And here's the thing I find really curious: people are getting all hot and bothered about perceived aspersions being cast on Wiggo etc, but why? Why let yourself get so passionate about this? If he's your brother or your close family, then fine, understood. But if not, I don't get it. Things to get really passionate about are your family and friends - the genuinely important things in life. Pro sport is thrilling and exciting, of course it is, but in the grand scheme of things it's not remotely important. IMHO :D

    Amen.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    It's not a very good one though, is it?

    No. I could have thought of a much better example if I had the time to sit and think, it was just the first one to pop into my head.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    No. I could have thought of a much better example if I had the time to sit and think, it was just the first one to pop into my head.

    How about Stefan Schumacher winning both TT stages at the 2008 TdF?
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    Here we are, still ahead of the TdF noobs coming onto the forum and we have people suggesting Wiggo is finished?

    WTF is going on?
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.

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