Dauphine - Stage 5 *Spoiler*

frenchfighter

Its a good summary and yes he has used it a few times this year.

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador has attacking form for nearly a decade which outweighs basically any negative thing anyone can say about him.

His attacking form means crap compared to the negatives which can, and have been, thrown at him.

frenchfighter

Ok Daz.

FJS

RichN95 wrote:

For those who keep saying the Sky train has been less consipicuous, then that's because Froome is not Wiggins.

This is the Froome Modus Operandi

1. Burn off domestiques early, both his own and others so that at the 5km point the bunch is greatly thinned out.
2. Look slightly vunerable and alone, with maybe Porte for company
3. Wait for an attack from a danger man (or maybe more than one)
4. Do not respond immediately (unless others take up the chase) - also engenders a sense of not taking responsiblity in the group
5. Wait for a decent gap (maybe 10 secs) to open up
6. Counter attack hard - using the attacker(s) as a target and a pacing guide.
7. Bridge to the attacker(s) then ride with them or push on

He's done it time and again this season. It's smart. It discourages multiple attacks (and counterattacks after a short chase) and plays to Froome's strength of launching a single massive push.

Yes Rich, of course, I know all that. My point is more that if Porte crashes, gets ill, or whatever, there won't be anyone to be there at the 5 km point.

Richmond Racer

FJS wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

For those who keep saying the Sky train has been less consipicuous, then that's because Froome is not Wiggins.

This is the Froome Modus Operandi

1. Burn off domestiques early, both his own and others so that at the 5km point the bunch is greatly thinned out.
2. Look slightly vunerable and alone, with maybe Porte for company
3. Wait for an attack from a danger man (or maybe more than one)
4. Do not respond immediately (unless others take up the chase) - also engenders a sense of not taking responsiblity in the group
5. Wait for a decent gap (maybe 10 secs) to open up
6. Counter attack hard - using the attacker(s) as a target and a pacing guide.
7. Bridge to the attacker(s) then ride with them or push on

He's done it time and again this season. It's smart. It discourages multiple attacks (and counterattacks after a short chase) and plays to Froome's strength of launching a single massive push.

Yes Rich, of course, I know all that. My point is more that if Porte crashes, gets ill, or whatever, there won't be anyone to be there at the 5 km point.

At that point, pedal forward Wiggins...oh wait...

Pross

I think Sky are a little short this year. I would have said Cataldo was the Rogers replacement (but not as strong) and Wiggins was due to swap roles with Froome. Now we have one who won't be there and the other who completed the Giro having been ill. Uran if fresh could do the job of Rogers but that's a big if and much as I like Henao I'm not sure he fits the role especially as he appears to struggle a bit at the end of GTs. Lopez is the other option and looked great earlier in the season but can he do that in the Tour?

Turfle

I'd imagine they want Lopez to be the guy before Porte. He was his right hand man in the early season, and again with Froome and Porte in Romandie. If he's got anywhere near his pre-Giro form he'll be there when the group if significantly whittled down.

EBH-Thomas-Kennaugh-Lopez-Porte-Froome, with Kiryienka in there somewhere.

jerry3571

Sorry to digress a little but watching Voeckler today reminded me of this Inbetweeners clip -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5lV-Ry9-tU

Abdoujaparov

RichN95 wrote:

For those who keep saying the Sky train has been less consipicuous, then that's because Froome is not Wiggins.

This is the Froome Modus Operandi

1. Burn off domestiques early, both his own and others so that at the 5km point the bunch is greatly thinned out.
2. Look slightly vunerable and alone, with maybe Porte for company
3. Wait for an attack from a danger man (or maybe more than one)
4. Do not respond immediately (unless others take up the chase) - also engenders a sense of not taking responsiblity in the group
5. Wait for a decent gap (maybe 10 secs) to open up
6. Counter attack hard - using the attacker(s) as a target and a pacing guide.
7. Bridge to the attacker(s) then ride with them or push on

He's done it time and again this season. It's smart. It discourages multiple attacks (and counterattacks after a short chase) and plays to Froome's strength of launching a single massive push.

He sometimes puts in a little dig to put others on the limit before launching a big attack (yesterday and in the Criterium International).

jerry3571

If you can read Froomey's form at any time on the road then you're better than I am. A bike rider's head drop's when he's stuffed but Froomey's head is up and down all the time; nothing wrong with it because it's the best disguise I've ever seen. He even drops off the wheels a bit and then regains and then attacks. I would usually assume that dropping off the back by a bike length would mean curtains but no; Froomey is impossible to read. It's a hell of a thing as he can stick it to anyone at the moment and no one knows what's his legs are like. Fantastic for him.

nweststeyn

I remember watching him in the 2011 Vuelta thinking just that when he lost a bike length, looked like he was shot and then recovered and attacked.

I really, really like him as a rider (but the heartbroken cycling fan in me always has that niggling doubt).

knedlicky

RichN95 wrote:

For those who keep saying the Sky train has been less consipicuous, then that's because Froome is not Wiggins.
This is the Froome Modus Operandi
1. Burn off domestiques early, both his own and others so that at the 5km point the bunch is greatly thinned out.
2. Look slightly vunerable and alone, with maybe Porte for company
3. Wait for an attack from a danger man (or maybe more than one)
4. Do not respond immediately (unless others take up the chase) - also engenders a sense of not taking responsiblity in the group
5. Wait for a decent gap (maybe 10 secs) to open up
6. Counter attack hard - using the attacker(s) as a target and a pacing guide.
7. Bridge to the attacker(s) then ride with them or push on
He's done it time and again this season. It's smart. It discourages multiple attacks (and counterattacks after a short chase) and plays to Froome's strength of launching a single massive push.

If you’re right in your analysis of the Froome Modus Operandi 1-7, surely it encourages multiple attacks rather than discourages them, just the opponents haven’t realised this or aren’t prepared to do it because at least for one it will be like russian roulette.

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

If you’re right in your analysis of the Froome Modus Operandi 1-7, surely it encourages multiple attacks rather than discourages them, just the opponents haven’t realised this or aren’t prepared to do it because at least for one it will be like russian roulette.

The thing with Froome is that he's not great at responding several times (see the Vuelta) - like, for example, Contador is. What Froome can do really well - better than anyone else at the moment - is one sustained attack.

Image a scenario where a threatening rider, lets say Rodriguez, attacks. If Froome responds immediately then it opens up the possibility of being attacked by a second rider, lets say Contador, who is better at these short accelerations. Therefore, such actions leave him vunerable.

But if he waits and lets a gap open, then the chase, when he launches it, is on his terms - a longer sustained effort which leaves the others struggling to follow because this is where Froome is supreme. Therefore, when he reaches Rodriguez (who has provided a useful carrot and guideline for him) maybe one or two riders may have stuck with him but they are in no shape to launch a credible counter attack.

It all comes down to Froome not really knowing how to gauge his efforts. He wants someone else to go first so he can work off that.

Tactically, if Froome is surrounded by three teammates riding tempo with 5k to go that's when you hit him, because if that's the scenario, he's probably on a bad day and is using the stormtroopers to deter attacks.

This may all be nonsense, but it should disavow people of the idea that Sky will ride in the same manner for him as the did for Wiggins.

knedlicky

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

If you’re right in your analysis of the Froome Modus Operandi 1-7, surely it encourages multiple attacks rather than discourages them, just the opponents haven’t realised this or aren’t prepared to do it because at least for one it will be like russian roulette.

The thing with Froome is that he's not great at responding several times (see the Vuelta) - like, for example, Contador is. What Froome can do really well - better than anyone else at the moment - is one sustained attack. ..........

Okay, thanks. I now understand your logic, and I suppose that’s exactly what Froome did the other day in the Dauphine.

But I still think, if other riders/teams realise that’s how he behaves, they can try multiple attacks, just there will be pauses between each and they will have to consequently start farther out – which goes back to what I think other posters have also said, that attacks against Sky should start farther out to stand a chance of success.

The re-active rather than pro-active tactic doesn’t exactly enamour me to Froome although at least it's more responsive than the Wiggins plodder technique.

PBo

You know what, Sky have ruined this forum.

A few years ago I knew nothing about pro racing, and learned loads from you guys.

Now the bizarre polarization and frankly utter sh1te spouted by some of you, brought about by the existence of Sky, have really spoiled things.

A plague on all your houses.....

milton50

Is Kiryienka just tired? He was immense earlier in the season.

Macaloon

jerry3571 wrote:

If you can read Froomey's form at any time on the road then you're better than I am. A bike rider's head drop's when he's stuffed but Froomey's head is up and down all the time; nothing wrong with it because it's the best disguise I've ever seen. He even drops off the wheels a bit and then regains and then attacks. I would usually assume that dropping off the back by a bike length would mean curtains but no; Froomey is impossible to read. It's a hell of a thing as he can stick it to anyone at the moment and no one knows what's his legs are like. Fantastic for him.

In his Rouleur interview he talks about bluffing that he's cracked, deliberately slipping to the back of the bunch in the hope that others will lift the pace into their red-zones making them vulnerable to an attack.

above_the_cows

Macaloon wrote:

In his Rouleur interview he talks about bluffing that he's cracked, deliberately slipping to the back of the bunch in the hope that others will lift the pace into their red-zones making them vulnerable to an attack.

Dear Chris,

The first rule of fight club is that you don't talk about fight club.

Yours sincerely,

Sun-Tzu

Macaloon

Above The Cows wrote:

Dear Chris,

The first rule of fight club is that you don't talk about fight club.

Yours sincerely,

Sun-Tzu

Undeniably 8) Brer Rabbit double bluff. Obv :roll:
Maciavelli

mroli

Rich - wasn't one of the reasons that Froome couldn't respond in the Vuelta that he'd ridden the Tour and come second. Not as fresh or "at his peak" as Contador/Valverde and Rodriguez?

RichN95.

mroli wrote:

Rich - wasn't one of the reasons that Froome couldn't respond in the Vuelta that he'd ridden the Tour and come second. Not as fresh or "at his peak" as Contador/Valverde and Rodriguez?

Yes, definitely. But it was when there were multiple accelerations that the tiredness was exposed.

jerry3571

Macaloon wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

If you can read Froomey's form at any time on the road then you're better than I am. A bike rider's head drop's when he's stuffed but Froomey's head is up and down all the time; nothing wrong with it because it's the best disguise I've ever seen. He even drops off the wheels a bit and then regains and then attacks. I would usually assume that dropping off the back by a bike length would mean curtains but no; Froomey is impossible to read. It's a hell of a thing as he can stick it to anyone at the moment and no one knows what's his legs are like. Fantastic for him.

In his Rouleur interview he talks about bluffing that he's cracked, deliberately slipping to the back of the bunch in the hope that others will lift the pace into their red-zones making them vulnerable to an attack.

Does that mean Mr Froomey is a cheeky monkey?? I guess this tactic is no good for Brad as he likes an even pace so he's better to not bring on any attacks.

Also, these tactics are all well and good but in reality it's all played out on the road and the rider with the best legs usually makes the attack stick. AC (pre doping ban) and LA used to attack once and then take a minute out of the rest as they had the legs. If you haven't got the legs then riders come back. Also the nature of the course plays a part as Sky are vulnerable to steep climbs and this is where Brad and Froomey are vulnerable. Lucky the TDF usually likes steady climbs in the Mountains.

Richmond Racer

Have to say that Froome is less vulnerable than Wiggins on the really steep stuff - see Angliru in '11 Vuelta, and also first part of last year's Vuelta till post-Tour fatigue set in

jerry3571

Richmond Racer wrote:

Have to say that Froome is less vulnerable than Wiggins on the really steep stuff - see Angliru in '11 Vuelta, and also first part of last year's Vuelta till post-Tour fatigue set in

He got duffed over in the Tirrano- Adriatico but as you say, better than Wiggins.
Also, these tricky stages is where the GC/Grand Tour combination riders do their thing. Seems Sky have got riders who are either GC or Classics guys and not the 2 in 1 option of other Teams (Nibs, Valv, Evans, JRod, AC and maybe even Shrecks and dare I say Gesunk; not that he's got much to shout about). I think this is where the highly controlled Sky Team slip up is on stages (like in the first week of the Giro) where riders are blasted all over the course with smaller lumps, tricky descents and bad weather.
Old "Duran" Uran Uran did ok come to say that, in that "nasty" Giro.

FJS

FJS wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

Reckon the Sky Express to Paris (Calling at Aix 3 Domaine, Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez, Annecy, then fast to Paris) will look something like this (order of carriages may vary).

Eisel, Thomas, Boassen-Hagen, Kennaugh,Lopez, Kiryenka, Porte, Froome

I think he'll be pretty well protected. As others have said, unless Froome has a stinker then other teams are going to have to be brave and take risks, like Contador did in the Vuelta. Even that it is easier said than done when Froome has such a strong team.

I don't think that's a particularly strong team in the mountains, especially not compared to Sky in the TdF last year, Sky in the Giro this year, or Saxo in the Tour this year. Porte would be the only one capable of still being there if the group is reduced to say 20 riders. Sky last year, Sky in the Giro, have 3 or 4 helpers capable of that, as will Saxo in this year's TdF

Told ya

In terms of mountain support they have put all their eggs in Wiggins' Giro-basket this year, haven't they?

Cumulonimbus

FJS wrote:

FJS wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

Reckon the Sky Express to Paris (Calling at Aix 3 Domaine, Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez, Annecy, then fast to Paris) will look something like this (order of carriages may vary).

Eisel, Thomas, Boassen-Hagen, Kennaugh,Lopez, Kiryenka, Porte, Froome

I think he'll be pretty well protected. As others have said, unless Froome has a stinker then other teams are going to have to be brave and take risks, like Contador did in the Vuelta. Even that it is easier said than done when Froome has such a strong team.

I don't think that's a particularly strong team in the mountains, especially not compared to Sky in the TdF last year, Sky in the Giro this year, or Saxo in the Tour this year. Porte would be the only one capable of still being there if the group is reduced to say 20 riders. Sky last year, Sky in the Giro, have 3 or 4 helpers capable of that, as will Saxo in this year's TdF

Told ya

In terms of mountain support they have put all their eggs in Wiggins' Giro-basket this year, haven't they?

The front group had more than 20 riders in until the last climb or two though.

When the group was 40 or 50 then i would normally have expected a few of the others to be there, possibly all apart from Stannard and Lopez (struggled at Dauphine) if it was 60 or 70. None of them made it though although Kennaugh could well have done if it wasnt for the crash. Thomas probably would have done if it hadnt been for his heavy crash. Kiri had the big effort yesterday.