Giro Stage 9 - Spoiler thread

powerbookboy

Menchov'sStabilisers wrote:

powerbookboy wrote:

Well I think we can all agree that the first week has gone completely off plan for Sky. Most of us think Wiggins has had a nightmare and looked anything but a GC winner.But on the other hand, it looks like there are now only 4 contenders left. Nibs, Cuddles, Wiggins and Scarponi.

Of them, Nibali looks the outstanding rider. Scarponi is an outside bet, Cuddles is getting on a bit and Wiggins is basically only looking weak going downhill. Very few GTs are won downhill. If we took into account the shocking amount of time Mr Wiggins has lost due to inattention and nervous descending, he's obviously got some legs on him as he'd be at least 1 min up if he wasn't riding like Zuelle wearing an eye-patch.

At the start of the race I said I thought he looked a few pounds over race weight and wondered if he was expecting to race into peak form, with a view of doing the double. He still looks a little less ripped than 2011/2012, so bearing in mind there's some utterly evil climbs in the final week, being within striking distance of Nibali isn't a disaster.

I reckon he'll lose 30 seconds to bonifications, gain 1min on the mountain TT, so he needs to break Nibs for 1min to win. Certainly doable...

Gesink?

Really. Really?

Le Commentateur

Vino'sGhost wrote:

i think the irish guy is very good. at least he describes the race not last nights sausages

But they might have been fabulous sausages.

Macaloon

Tripe

RideOnTime

Le Commentateur wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

i think the irish guy is very good. at least he describes the race not last nights sausages

But they might have been fabulous sausages.

what were these sausages its team time.

Macaloon

oneof1982 wrote:

Wiggins will be pleased to get that out of the way. Suffered again but didn't lose any time, in fact gained on Hejdesel. However 9 days in and he has played 8 "get out of jail" cards. Can't have many left.....

Day off tomorrow. He'll spend most of it praying for good weather for the rest of the tour.

As for the rest, Cadel Evans looks back to something near his best. Good to see. Nibs is in the chair. I think we are going to see Kazakstan Railways running a full service up the mountains. They will have looked at Sky last year, and thought "we can do that". Will be interesting if this is seen as "boring", or a "sound way to defend a lead and win a GT" by the Radaratti.

mikenetic

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

Paul 8v

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Ryder loses a minute. Quigley loses Wiggins. (again)

I noticed when he said he couldn't see Wiggins he was actually pretty much in the centre of the screen...

I mean I'm no Eurosport commentator and I don't know all the domestiques etc but I don't seem to have a problem spotting the main GC contenders but this guy is having a 'mare. He did exactly the same with Nibali the other day. Wiggins is easy, tiny arms and from the back it says 181 on him and from the front he has white Oakley's and looks like Bradley Wiggins...

Also he will have a bloomin sheet in front of him that shows which riders are which by number. Any jobs on their firm? I think I'll give it a go....

Paul 8v

mikenetic wrote:

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

If you take technique and aero out of the equation it is true

menchovʹsstabilisers

powerbookboy wrote:

Menchov'sStabilisers wrote:

powerbookboy wrote:

Well I think we can all agree that the first week has gone completely off plan for Sky. Most of us think Wiggins has had a nightmare and looked anything but a GC winner.But on the other hand, it looks like there are now only 4 contenders left. Nibs, Cuddles, Wiggins and Scarponi.

Of them, Nibali looks the outstanding rider. Scarponi is an outside bet, Cuddles is getting on a bit and Wiggins is basically only looking weak going downhill. Very few GTs are won downhill. If we took into account the shocking amount of time Mr Wiggins has lost due to inattention and nervous descending, he's obviously got some legs on him as he'd be at least 1 min up if he wasn't riding like Zuelle wearing an eye-patch.

At the start of the race I said I thought he looked a few pounds over race weight and wondered if he was expecting to race into peak form, with a view of doing the double. He still looks a little less ripped than 2011/2012, so bearing in mind there's some utterly evil climbs in the final week, being within striking distance of Nibali isn't a disaster.

I reckon he'll lose 30 seconds to bonifications, gain 1min on the mountain TT, so he needs to break Nibs for 1min to win. Certainly doable...

Gesink?

Really. Really?

I wouldn't exactly put money on him, but he's a GC rider on a GC team in a podium position just over a minute back. He's still in contention.

mikenetic

Paul 8v wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

If you take technique and aero out of the equation it is true

Um. Galileo called, the 16th century wants its physics back! Mass per se has nothing to do with how fast something falls under gravity.

I presume it's more that larger riders can (generally) generate more absolute sustained power, which will override a potentially larger cross-section, and therefore higher resistance to motion into the wind.

Paul 8v

Menchov'sStabilisers wrote:

powerbookboy wrote:

Menchov'sStabilisers wrote:

powerbookboy wrote:

Well I think we can all agree that the first week has gone completely off plan for Sky. Most of us think Wiggins has had a nightmare and looked anything but a GC winner.But on the other hand, it looks like there are now only 4 contenders left. Nibs, Cuddles, Wiggins and Scarponi.

Of them, Nibali looks the outstanding rider. Scarponi is an outside bet, Cuddles is getting on a bit and Wiggins is basically only looking weak going downhill. Very few GTs are won downhill. If we took into account the shocking amount of time Mr Wiggins has lost due to inattention and nervous descending, he's obviously got some legs on him as he'd be at least 1 min up if he wasn't riding like Zuelle wearing an eye-patch.

At the start of the race I said I thought he looked a few pounds over race weight and wondered if he was expecting to race into peak form, with a view of doing the double. He still looks a little less ripped than 2011/2012, so bearing in mind there's some utterly evil climbs in the final week, being within striking distance of Nibali isn't a disaster.

I reckon he'll lose 30 seconds to bonifications, gain 1min on the mountain TT, so he needs to break Nibs for 1min to win. Certainly doable...

Gesink?

Really. Really?

I wouldn't exactly put money on him, but he's a GC rider on a GC team in a podium position just over a minute back. He's still in contention.

Could come in under the radar but more likely it will be Nibali

Jez mon

mikenetic wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

If you take technique and aero out of the equation it is true

Um. Galileo called, the 16th century wants its physics back! Mass per se has nothing to do with how fast something falls under gravity.

I presume it's more that larger riders can (generally) generate more absolute sustained power, which will override a potentially larger cross-section, and therefore higher resistance to motion into the wind.

I must have missed the part where they decided to hold this years Giro in a vacuum.

Daz555

mikenetic wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

If you take technique and aero out of the equation it is true

Um. Galileo called, the 16th century wants its physics back! Mass per se has nothing to do with how fast something falls under gravity.

I presume it's more that larger riders can (generally) generate more absolute sustained power, which will override a potentially larger cross-section, and therefore higher resistance to motion into the wind.

Unless you are in a vacuum then mass plays a hugely important part in how fast an object falls.

Heavy riders have physics on their side when it comes to going downhill.

Paul 8v

mikenetic wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Why do people equate being heavier with being a faster descender?

If you take technique and aero out of the equation it is true

Um. Galileo called, the 16th century wants its physics back! Mass per se has nothing to do with how fast something falls under gravity.

I presume it's more that larger riders can (generally) generate more absolute sustained power, which will override a potentially larger cross-section, and therefore higher resistance to motion into the wind.

Someone didn't listen in science class, that would be true if the giro was held in space (Maybe they could hook up with Richard Branson for the 2030 prologue sponsored by virgin galactic)

I read an article about heavy riders with a larger frontal area compared to lighter with a smaller frontal area:

"When you increase the mass the speed increases by cubic function, whereas if you increase the aerodynamic drag the speed decreases by a square function. Hence why cyclists who are heavier can go faster"

That wasn't Galileo though that was Borut Fonda a researcher in to cycling science at the university of Birmingham :-)

alan_a

I love spoiler threads, everything is covered from feminism to physics.

joelsim

A lot can happen in 2 weeks in the mountains!

mikenetic

Not sure who the physics comprehension comments are aimed at.

Read what I wrote, read what he wrote. He said it's true if you take aero out of the equation. I said mass on its own has nothing to do with descending speed. All the stuff about frontal area and wind resistance are obviously effects, which is why the last time I looked no team had cloaks as part of their kit, regardless of how cool that would look.

Back on topic.

Looking at Sky, both Hernao and Uran are a more than couple of minutes back. Do they send one (or either) of them up the road on a mountain stage to see if they can put a second rider into GC contention?

alihisgreat

mikenetic wrote:

Not sure who the physics comprehension comments are aimed at.

Read what I wrote, read what he wrote. He said it's true if you take aero out of the equation. I said mass on its own has nothing to do with descending speed. All the stuff about frontal area and wind resistance are obviously effects, which is why the last time I looked no team had cloaks as part of their kit, regardless of how cool that would look.

Back on topic.

Looking at Sky, both Hernao and Uran are a more than couple of minutes back. Do they send one (or either) of them up the road on a mountain stage to see if they can put a second rider into GC contention?

This seems pretty obvious.. If they send one up the road then Astana have to respond and this should isolate Nibali earlier.

Richmond Racer

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Not sure who the physics comprehension comments are aimed at.

Read what I wrote, read what he wrote. He said it's true if you take aero out of the equation. I said mass on its own has nothing to do with descending speed. All the stuff about frontal area and wind resistance are obviously effects, which is why the last time I looked no team had cloaks as part of their kit, regardless of how cool that would look.

Back on topic.

Looking at Sky, both Hernao and Uran are a more than couple of minutes back. Do they send one (or either) of them up the road on a mountain stage to see if they can put a second rider into GC contention?

This seems pretty obvious.. If they send one up the road then Astana have to respond and this should isolate Nibali earlier.

^This. Brailsford seems to be reacting relatively quickly to the situation re a skittish Wiggo and 2 feisty Colombians by having Uran and Henao ride up front today with Nibali and the Astana So Solid Crew, come what may.

WTF with Ryder? Vaughters might need to spend a little less time on Twitter and a little more time on whats happening on the road.

Christ on a bike, I'm not sure me nerves are going to go the full distance with this one...Cracking stuff though

Paul 8v

Looking at the way he is riding the problem with Wiggins doesn't seem to be fitness only his nerve on the descent.

He looked incredibly slow through corners on the TT (Compared to Evans who cornered on the ragged edge as if his life depended on it) But was still second after a bike change. When he had been dropped due to a mechanical/loss of nerve he seemed to get back on relatively well (Apart from the crash but when he was cornering slowly people were crashing in front and behind so it may have been a better move than risking it to catch up)

When he gets up in to the high mountains and it is all about managing effort will be where his form will really show, if he can keep it stable and others go up the road and blow then he could still be in with a chance. We will just have to pray there aren't too many wet descents after those big hills as he seems to be cornering like my mum at the moment (I can't say I blame him though)

mikenetic

It'll be interesting to see if they are prepared to move away from a "Wiggins-centric" plan.

Richmond Racer

Sky might want to make sure they've got enough replacement brake pads

iainf72

Is everyone convinced its wet roads that are the problem? I'm not.

I'm unconvinced Wiggins form is as good as it needs to be. He's also heavier than last year which might have made sense when they were preparing for the long TT, but a kilo is a kilo.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Is everyone convinced its wet roads that are the problem? I'm not.

I'm unconvinced Wiggins form is as good as it needs to be. He's also heavier than last year which might have made sense when they were preparing for the long TT, but a kilo is a kilo.

His form may or may not be there, but today every time they went around a corner on the later descents a large gap opened up in front of him, which he then had to chase down - it's definitely the major issue.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Is everyone convinced its wet roads that are the problem? I'm not.

I'm unconvinced Wiggins form is as good as it needs to be. He's also heavier than last year which might have made sense when they were preparing for the long TT, but a kilo is a kilo.

His form may or may not be there, but today every time they went around a corner on the later descents a large gap opened up in front of him, which he then had to chase down - it's definitely the major issue.

Sure - But is it a problem in the wet or just in general? Slower on the technical part of the TT yesterday and that was dry.

tailwindhome

Above The Cows wrote:

Thankfully Bradley realised he'd made a sexist wally of himself and tried to dig himself out of the hole..

That was the frantic back tracking of a man who knows he's getting a slap when he gets home.


My grandfather always used a phrase, "like an old woman with a straw arse" to describe his golf game. I now realise this phrase is sexist, ageist and offensive to those with organic prosthetics. I apologise on his behalf.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Sure - But is it a problem in the wet or just in general? Slower on the technical part of the TT yesterday and that was dry.

I don't image on dry roads he's suddenly going to turn into Steve Peat, put it that way. I doubt he'll be quite as bad though - it's all mental.
Tuesday will reveal all, unless Noah is holding another training session.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

Is everyone convinced its wet roads that are the problem? I'm not.

I'm unconvinced Wiggins form is as good as it needs to be. He's also heavier than last year which might have made sense when they were preparing for the long TT, but a kilo is a kilo.

I am unsure about the "numbers" but he is descending very poorly just through observation. Its tiring being tensed up in the descents you get no recovery

its odd... he descended well enough in the past.. paris nice in the wet a few yrs back IIRC he opened up gaps on the descents

I am unsold on his fitness as yet but it would be moot if he fries himself wasting energy gripping to the levers..

dolan_driver

The debate on descending and what makes a good or even outstanding descender is quite interesting. Unless Bradley Wiggins gets his head sorted out on the rest day, he is going to be seriously handicapped in any real attempt at winning this Giro. He and his team are expending a lot of energy getting back on after these descents.

Do pro riders actually look at their descending skills and analyse how it might affect their overall chances in Grand Tours? You'd have to say the Schleck Brothers and Basso need to work on this area and perhaps Wiggins now, too.

Of the current bunch, Cunego and Cancellara seem to be the most consistent at good high-speed descending without crashing. Nibali is fearless but crashes a little too regularly.

Looking at the guys from the past, Phil Anderson, Sean Yates and Frederic Vichot were names that were closely associated with full-committment descending while Paolo Savoldelli was also another who was quick. Sean Kelly's 92 Milan-San Remo was another text book case of a race largely won on a descent.

Kelly also rode with Vichot on his team. I'm not on twitter but maybe somebody could send a message to Declan Quigley on Tuesday and ask Kelly to talk about Vichot and what he thinks made him such a brilliant descender. Someone might also suggest that he starts some kind of descending training programme for the current pros listed above. If they aren't natural descenders, they need to work at it. "Reading the road" forms part of any advanced driving course, like those given to police drivers. Surely some of the elements of a driving course are also applicable to high-speed descending on a bicycle. Limit points, road position and braking techniques are something that could give a rider a bit of confidence. Descending is a skill that can be improved, even if it is something you don't necessarily enjoy.

Back when I was racing, we used to go out to a particular hill that ended on a dead-end road in the middle of nowhere. We climbed this particular climb purely to allow ourselves the chance to descend it again because of its really nice sweeping bends. We would go up and down this hill three or four times, just for the fun of it. I guess our descending improved because we actually trained a little at it even if we only did it for fun. Maybe the pros need to include a "descent training day" in their early season training camps.

DD.

danlikesbikes

Richmond Racer wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Not sure who the physics comprehension comments are aimed at.

Read what I wrote, read what he wrote. He said it's true if you take aero out of the equation. I said mass on its own has nothing to do with descending speed. All the stuff about frontal area and wind resistance are obviously effects, which is why the last time I looked no team had cloaks as part of their kit, regardless of how cool that would look.

Back on topic.

Looking at Sky, both Hernao and Uran are a more than couple of minutes back. Do they send one (or either) of them up the road on a mountain stage to see if they can put a second rider into GC contention?

This seems pretty obvious.. If they send one up the road then Astana have to respond and this should isolate Nibali earlier.

^This. Brailsford seems to be reacting relatively quickly to the situation re a skittish Wiggo and 2 feisty Colombians by having Uran and Henao ride up front today with Nibali and the Astana So Solid Crew, come what may.

WTF with Ryder? Vaughters might need to spend a little less time on Twitter and a little more time on whats happening on the road.

Christ on a bike, I'm not sure me nerves are going to go the full distance with this one...Cracking stuff though

Would seem like a sensible option for Sky to take IMHO. They need to do everything they can to make the others work for it & shift some of the pressure away from Wiggo & onto Nibbles etc