The Secret Pro

r0bh

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

I don't understand Rich's point (unusually). Surely any athlete competing at a serious level, irrespective of their financial position, should know whether there are high risks of food contamination in the country they are visiting? If I went to Mexico or China I know there's a risk and I don't have a career depending on knowing. I would still eat meat but then I'm not bothered if I lose my 4th cat licence!

But the thing is you are into cycling and read about doping pretty much on a daily basis - so your pretty clued up. As are those in the sport. But in many other sports it's not that big a deal, so they don't give too much thought and a lot of the athletes don't really get told. For a lot of athletes it's just them and their coach.

Clenbuterol contamination is pretty specialized knowledge which you wouldn't know about as a matter of course. Had anyone mentioned it prior to Contador? No-one put it forward as a possible reason until he did.

When Edvald Boasson Hagen came into the sport he didn't even know who Eddy Merckx was, so expecting him to know about farming regulations in China is a bit of a stretch. Now he's fortunate to have an expert team to think about these things for him, but not every sportsman does. (I know someone who manages a Commonwealth Games hockey team. I would be surprised if he knows what a TUE is).

Agree with Pross - this is their job and their job depends upon them knowing about the doping regulations, strict liability, ADAMS etc etc. There is no excuse for them not knowing this information, which is widely available, just as there would be no excuse for me not knowing the regulations relevant to my job.

The_Boy

Pross wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

I don't understand Rich's point (unusually). Surely any athlete competing at a serious level, irrespective of their financial position, should know whether there are high risks of food contamination in the country they are visiting? If I went to Mexico or China I know there's a risk and I don't have a career depending on knowing. I would still eat meat but then I'm not bothered if I lose my 4th cat licence!

But the thing is you are into cycling and read about doping pretty much on a daily basis - so your pretty clued up. As are those in the sport. But in many other sports it's not that big a deal, so they don't give too much thought and a lot of the athletes don't really get told. For a lot of athletes it's just them and their coach.

Clenbuterol contamination is pretty specialized knowledge which you wouldn't know about as a matter of course. Had anyone mentioned it prior to Contador? No-one put it forward as a possible reason until he did.

When Edvald Boasson Hagen came into the sport he didn't even know who Eddy Merckx was, so expecting him to know about farming regulations in China is a bit of a stretch. Now he's fortunate to have an expert team to think about these things for him, but not every sportsman does. (I know someone who manages a Commonwealth Games hockey team. I would be surprised if he knows what a TUE is).

But surely an elite level athlete in any sport, such as the Ethiopian marathon runner you mentioned as an example, would have a greater understanding than some rank amateur? My doping knowledge is (deliberately) limited as I try to avoid that part of the sport.

I *think* what Rich is getting at* is pros who aren't elite level athletes and don't have access to the sort of resources that would enable them to make an equally informed decision as top level athletes. Even you or I could potentially have better resources available to us than many athletes in the world as a result of easy access to a GP and a reliable internet connection.

I'd agree with him that this presents a problem, but I'm not convinced that it is something that should colour WADA's position. As always I am open to being convinced though.

*Though I obviously don't want to be putting words in his/her mouth.

TheBigBean

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

RichN95.

r0bh wrote:

There is no excuse for them not knowing this information, which is widely available,

But is it widely available? It's widely available to people who read cycling websites, but not elsewhere. I don't think it is too much for an athlete to expect that eating food is ok.

There's hundreds of banned products on the WADA list. How can anyone know about the risks associated with them unless they are specifically told?

The_Boy

TheBigBean wrote:

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

No. They should take responsibility for what goes on their bodies and take the necessary steps to avoid contamination the same as other athletes.

TheBigBean

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

No. They should take responsibility for what goes on their bodies and take the necessary steps to avoid contamination the same as other athletes.

So, based on the advice available, the necessary steps seem to be either emmigration, vegetarianism or self farming. None of those seem all that appealing.

The_Boy

Incidentally, since we're going somewhat off topic from the original article, how does this square with the Contador case?

I've downloaded a pdf of the CAS verdict but I'm not going to have a chance to read it until later, and I'm not going to go trawling through the clinic. From memory, he had levels of CLen that had been previously undetectable, and the ban was on the grounds of strict liability ie there was no evidence to *prove* that it was as a result of doping.

Now, as much as I was happy to see him banned (though not the way it was actually done) would any minimum levels being advocated on this thread have affected that case?

The_Boy

TheBigBean wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

No. They should take responsibility for what goes on their bodies and take the necessary steps to avoid contamination the same as other athletes.

So, based on the advice available, the necessary steps seem to be either emmigration, vegetarianism or self farming. None of those seem all that appealing.

Why not? An international athlete will be spending time abroad anyway and vegetarianism can hardly be seen as the greatest hardship (I say this as a meat eater).

Self farming isn't the only way to ensure your meat comes from a clen free source. Granted the alternatives may well be a ball ache, but needs must.

RichN95.

The_Boy wrote:

Now, as much as I was happy to see him banned (though not the way it was actually done) would any minimum levels being advocated on this thread have affected that case?

Yes, quite possibly. It depends on what the minimum levels are and whether they the same worldwide.

Personally, I would have a system where warnings or suspended sentences are available.

The_Boy

RichN95 wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

Now, as much as I was happy to see him banned (though not the way it was actually done) would any minimum levels being advocated on this thread have affected that case?

Yes, quite possibly. It depends on what the minimum levels are and whether they the same worldwide.

Personally, I would have a system where warnings or suspended sentences are available.

Tbh, as long as my post Tirreno comment about Contador steaking his claim still stands I'm not that fussed.

Macaloon

Pross wrote:

I don't understand Rich's point (unusually). Surely any athlete competing at a serious level, irrespective of their financial position, should know whether there are high risks of food contamination in the country they are visiting? If I went to Mexico or China I know there's a risk and I don't have a career depending on knowing. I would still eat meat but then I'm not bothered if I lose my 4th cat licence!

If it was as 'simple' as completely avoiding certain meats and only eating food supplied and therefore approved by the organizers, you would have a point. This is no hardship at all for dedicated professionals.

But there is no way for the organizer to guarantee clen-free buffets when contamination is endemic, and local definitions of hospitality porridge or special rice contain pork.

Holding a compulsory event under these conditions is fundamentally unfair, quite apart from the Rogers situation.

TheBigBean

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

No. They should take responsibility for what goes on their bodies and take the necessary steps to avoid contamination the same as other athletes.

So, based on the advice available, the necessary steps seem to be either emmigration, vegetarianism or self farming. None of those seem all that appealing.

Why not? An international athlete will be spending time abroad anyway and vegetarianism can hardly be seen as the greatest hardship (I say this as a meat eater).

Self farming isn't the only way to ensure your meat comes from a clen free source. Granted the alternatives may well be a ball ache, but needs must.

The point is that not all athletes are globe trotting superstars. Imagine that you are a kid growing up in China hoping to make it as badminton player, but end up being banned from the first test you take for a product you've never heard of in a sport that rarely talks about doping.

TheBigBean

The_Boy wrote:

Incidentally, since we're going somewhat off topic from the original article, how does this square with the Contador case?

In my opinion (which is very different from a lot of posters), the UCI / WADA needed to make the blood doping theory stick based on blood parameters, and nothing should have been done about the clen.

The_Boy

TheBigBean wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

So should all Chinese athletes be vegetarian?

No. They should take responsibility for what goes on their bodies and take the necessary steps to avoid contamination the same as other athletes.

So, based on the advice available, the necessary steps seem to be either emmigration, vegetarianism or self farming. None of those seem all that appealing.

Why not? An international athlete will be spending time abroad anyway and vegetarianism can hardly be seen as the greatest hardship (I say this as a meat eater).

Self farming isn't the only way to ensure your meat comes from a clen free source. Granted the alternatives may well be a ball ache, but needs must.

The point is that not all athletes are globe trotting superstars. Imagine that you are a kid growing up in China hoping to make it as badminton player, but end up being banned from the first test you take for a product you've never heard of in a sport that rarely talks about doping.

I didn't say they are. That's why I specified international athletes. Is there a problem of Badminton players testing +ve for Clen? Genuine question, because if there isn't then all of this is starting to descend into whataboutery.

And for what it's worth, I posted a link earlier to a Telegraph article that reported on Chinese olympians being told to avoid pork and beef in the run up to the London Olympics, so it shouldn't be an unheard of phenomenon within sporting circles.

Anyway, enough devil's advocate. I'm off to watch the lovely horses on Channel 4 - I have a book open on how many are destroyed.

TheBigBean

The_Boy wrote:

Genuine question, because if there isn't then all of this is starting to descend into whataboutery.

This is an internet forum. Whataboutery is quite fundamental, otherwise we'd just be discussing facts.

Richmond Racer

TheBigBean wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

Genuine question, because if there isn't then all of this is starting to descend into whataboutery.

This is an internet forum. Whataboutery is quite fundamental, otherwise we'd just be discussing facts.

FACTS?? Pfft

Anonymous

Which kind of facts? Substantiated facts or the ones someone plucks from thin air then follows it by stating FACT?

mroli

Richmond Racer wrote:

Talking of RM:
http://rouleur.cc/journal/history/royalty

He writes so well. The Moore biog is one of my fav books, but a book of Millar's musings on cycling generally and his career in specific is very high up my wish list....

Richmond Racer

mroli wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Talking of RM:
http://rouleur.cc/journal/history/royalty

He writes so well. The Moore biog is one of my fav books, but a book of Millar's musings on cycling generally and his career in specific is very high up my wish list....

He's good. Will Fotheringham was the one who persuaded him to turn his hand to writing, apparently.

Anonymous

RichN95 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

There is no excuse for them not knowing this information, which is widely available,

But is it widely available? It's widely available to people who read cycling websites, but not elsewhere. I don't think it is too much for an athlete to expect that eating food is ok.

There's hundreds of banned products on the WADA list. How can anyone know about the risks associated with them unless they are specifically told?

But they can google it and get a pretty straight answer. Ask their governing body, surely to be able to compete at elite level in any sport you need to be registered through a national body. Can the Ethiopian guy not find this out, I'm sure he is using other things that aren't available to everyone.

The way I look at it is, if I as a FAN of cycling can have this information, then someone who is an ELITE athlete can have it.

If your job depended on it, you'd want to know, if an athlete can find out what food has the best/most protein in it then they can find out which can make them fail a doping test. Ignorance isn't an answer here, or it shouldn't be.

No_Ta_Doctor

The main problem with introducing a threshold for Clenbuterol is that even if you ingested it inadvertently through contaminated meat you could easily be well above what you'd set as a level for "performance enhancing". There have been numerous cases of people suffering clenbuterol poisoning through contaminated meat, which is a level your PED taker is well below.

RichN95.

sjmclean wrote:

The way I look at it is, if I as a FAN of cycling can have this information, then someone who is an ELITE athlete can have it.

You only have the information as a fan of cycling because two high profile riders have tested positive for it and used contamination as a defence. Prior to Contador I bet you hadn't heard of it. I bet plenty in cycling hadn't.

Anonymous

RichN95 wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

The way I look at it is, if I as a FAN of cycling can have this information, then someone who is an ELITE athlete can have it.

You only have the information as a fan of cycling because two high profile riders have tested positive for it and used contamination as a defence. Prior to Contador I bet you hadn't heard of it. I bet plenty in cycling hadn't.

I've actually had an idea of it long before I followed cycling, through baseball players getting bans in the mid 2000's.


I also don't have access to the information national bodies hold on drugs etc. There is no excuse for an elite (that's the key word) athlete not knowing about contamination. They know not to drink the water in countries, they know to check for certain over the counter medicines they can't take, so should do some research into food as well. It's their career, life, reputation on the line.

RichN95.

sjmclean wrote:

They know not to drink the water in countries, they know to check for certain over the counter medicines they can't take, so should do some research into food as well. It's their career, life, reputation on the line.

Water is bog standard tourist advice (and that's a health issue, not a doping one). Medicines they can check on a WADA database.

But food? Who, without specific warning, thinks that food can cost them their career? I think you have little appreciation of how sports people around the world live their lives.

r0bh

RichN95 wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

The way I look at it is, if I as a FAN of cycling can have this information, then someone who is an ELITE athlete can have it.

You only have the information as a fan of cycling because two high profile riders have tested positive for it and used contamination as a defence. Prior to Contador I bet you hadn't heard of it. I bet plenty in cycling hadn't.

But we're not talking about prior to Contador are we, we're talking about now. There is no excuse for not knowing about possible clen contamination in meat.

And I did know about it before Contador, Li Fuyu tested positive for clen in April 2010

frenchfighter

mroli wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Talking of RM:
http://rouleur.cc/journal/history/royalty

He writes so well. The Moore biog is one of my fav books, but a book of Millar's musings on cycling generally and his career in specific is very high up my wish list....

Was a good read (as is the climbing one on the side). He writes like he climbed, with genuine passion. This sort of stuff shows and I love it.

Mad_Malx

r0bh wrote:

Li Fuyu tested positive for clen in April 2010

Who probably could have done with a better lawyer.

TheBigBean

No tA Doctor wrote:

The main problem with introducing a threshold for Clenbuterol is that even if you ingested it inadvertently through contaminated meat you could easily be well above what you'd set as a level for "performance enhancing". There have been numerous cases of people suffering clenbuterol poisoning through contaminated meat, which is a level your PED taker is well below.

If true, that is a very good point. I'd be interested if any research has been done on Clenbuterol levels in the general population vs a performance enhancing level e.g. is the population of China performance enhanced? I still think a threshold would at least help some instances - maybe not the Clenbuterol posioned meat, but a minor bit of cow doping.

TheBigBean

Abdu was busted for Clenbuterol, but I forgot about it.

Macaloon

frenchfighter wrote:

mroli wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Talking of RM:
http://rouleur.cc/journal/history/royalty

He writes so well. The Moore biog is one of my fav books, but a book of Millar's musings on cycling generally and his career in specific is very high up my wish list....

Was a good read (as is the climbing one on the side). He writes like he climbed, with genuine passion. This sort of stuff shows and I love it.

+3 Interesting writing and natural ability to put the human in the rider:

"In reality, climbing mountains has always been more about feeling and sensations than doing as you are told by an electronic device or a know-it-all at the side of the road. No, it’s not stubbornness: I put that down to the artistic interpretation the climber is allowed as an entertainer because, let’s face it, the climber on any team is usually a little bit quirky and it’s no good trying to rein in a talent that looks so awesome when performed at the top level."

Tough comparison for the The Secret Pro.