Sky and David Walsh

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  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    frenchfighter wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    FF is a nice fellow in person. Sometimes sounds a bit unhinged here but don't pay no mind to that

    hmm, people keep saying that so I ve given him the benefit of the doubt but my patience is starting to run thin at the moment...

    I hope it runs out.

    LOL
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    edited February 2013
    Ok, you re a d1ck then....fine (I love that fact you think youre ahead! Wow :lol::lol: )

    Micron, you re, of course, perfectly welcome on the Qatar thread, or the Oman thread when that starts, although you ve said that you prefer following them on twitter so it's up to you...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    frenchfighter wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    FF is a nice fellow in person. Sometimes sounds a bit unhinged here but don't pay no mind to that

    Thanks Iain. Will quit this thread while I am ahead. Those banging on about Qatar should read your sig line.

    It was using a current example. Look forward to many good discussions when the big stuff starts next month.

    Ref 'Jack of all trades' comment - that applies if it's actually someone's job. I don't believe it is in this case (if i've got that wrong than please advise) and said commentor is no more or less entitled to their view than the rest of us, but shouldn't be putting themselves on a self-built pedestal as either voice of cycling fans nor world wide expert on all things doping.
  • bockers
    bockers Posts: 146
    Oh the irony in that Micron gets support from one that doesn't see any harm in doping so long as you ride with style.
    IJust want cheats out of this sport, regardless.
  • inkyfingers
    inkyfingers Posts: 4,400
    I have to say, there has been a lot of silly behaviour recently, from all sides. It's fine to rubbish someones opinion, but when it turns into personal insults it just ruins the whole discussion.

    Maybe everyone is just grouchy because they're waiting for the real racing to get going.
    "I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    inkyfingers wrote:

    Maybe everyone is just grouchy because they're waiting for the real racing to get going.

    Not me. I'm only here for the doping chat. Bicycle racing is boring.
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Friday afternoon and I still have to wait 15 mins before the beers can start - I don't mind confessing to grouchiness....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    ddraver wrote:
    Friday afternoon and I still have to wait 15 mins before the beers can start - I don't mind confessing to grouchiness....


    That's not a confession, that's a concession.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    I ll concession you in a minute! ;)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Paul's woken up again....

    *McQuaid: "I'm the first UCI president ever to admit that we have a culture of doping in this sport" When was that Pat?

    *How many riders died before you made that admission? What sis you say about the culture of doping in the 90's

    *Is there nothing you won't say to save your miserable arse?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    RR correct me if I'm wrong but the problem seems to be this:

    You're angry because you perceive that my 'voice' is heard, is more influential than your own, when I'm so wrongheaded/I'll informed. I'm sure you're right. It must be galling to see someone you despise apparently having their opinions taken notice of when your own are not. The fundamental assumption is I'm a mouthy egoist who makes snarky comments so she can get invited to all the best parties.

    There's an easy solution - stop whingeing and get out there. For right or wrong forums aren't where it's at. Twitter, love it or hate it, is where the 'cool kids' are. Fran millar is on twitter and she's happy to engage. She'd love to hear from you I'm sure. But don't sit around moaning about it, get out and change it. Make your voice heard - it's clearly far better informed than mine.

    As for CCN - Scott and I had been working on a meeting of our own - we had Vroomen on board, a contact with Prudhomme (clang clang name drop alert). You see WE WERE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING. Instead of sitting around whining we got off our butts, made a few phone calls. Not sure what we hoped to achieve but we got gazumped by Fuller and his CCN agenda. He kindly invited us along - seeing as we had similar objectives. In retrospect, I wouldn't have gone given the shit storm that ensued but you see I believe in standing up and fighting for what I believe in (why I stood as a councillor - because I believe passionately in things like social justice - I was not elected, unsurprising in a true blue constituency, but there's another failure of sky's due diligence for you).

    You know what I think? I think leading a little gang to attack someone you don't agree with and patently dislike, on another forum, is worse than puerile. I think setting up a thread specifically to sling insults around is pathetic. I also agree that I didn't cover myself in glory by descending to your level. I'd forgotten just how toxic forums can be. You know when you were all pulling your little stunt the other day I had a message from a passionate sky fan with whom I've debated all these issues - and many more - over the last year. He asked me if he'd ever been as ridiculous as you were being. I was at pains to reassure him that he never had been.

    So I guess your choice is whether you continue to seethe at what you see as my despicable modes operandi or whether you get out there and get your own voice heard. And I'd suggest the best way to do that is not by bullying and berating but by setting up your own influential twitter networks. Use, don't abuse.

    I hope you enjoy your ride
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Been watching Qatar - cavendish majestic - he gets that great, low position in the sprint. Privilege to be watching cycling in an age where such a pure sprinter is in his pomp. Cav is also great value on twitter, funny & informative - suggest you follow him instead of eating your time on that gobshite festinagirl
  • jonomc4
    jonomc4 Posts: 891
    ddraver wrote:
    So 5 people have followed me, 4 of whom I don't know....any of you reprobates?

    Outstanding forum effort tonight boys and girls. Sure it will have zero affect on her, but at least she may realise she speaks for the massive minority of UK cycling fans...

    following a few of you on twitter now - love a laugh.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Micron

    Have you separated the success of British Cycling on the track from Sky on the road?

    Do you believe British track success to be also suspicious?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    There was a magnificent inevitability about all this. Micron, you got game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4bPjoqR-5A
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    micron wrote:
    RR correct me if I'm wrong but the problem seems to be this:

    You're angry because you perceive that my 'voice' is heard, is more influential than your own, when I'm so wrongheaded/I'll informed. I'm sure you're right. It must be galling to see someone you despise apparently having their opinions taken notice of when your own are not. The fundamental assumption is I'm a mouthy egoist who makes snarky comments so she can get invited to all the best parties.

    There's an easy solution - stop whingeing and get out there.


    Micron, RR.....I'm thinking a pillow fight could help sort your differences
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    micron wrote:
    Been watching Qatar - cavendish majestic - he gets that great, low position in the sprint. Privilege to be watching cycling in an age where such a pure sprinter is in his pomp. Cav is also great value on twitter, funny & informative - suggest you follow him instead of eating your time on that gobshite festinagirl

    Agree on Cav and in the wider world I don't think the general UK sports fan realises how fortunate we are with him - a true World's best in a global (ish) mass sport, and we don't have too many of those.

    Thanks for the Twitter reco. but managed to find & follow Cav a while ago all by myself without help. Surprised myself even. PS don't follow @FG but see a lot of your responses to people I do such as JV and have occasionally then read further some of your thoughts / theories (for thats what they are).

    Ref your post to RR - sums it up really. I don't detect anyone showing anger because their opinion isn't heard or as influential as much as you believe yours is. Think you have missed the point (either accidently or deliberately) which is we are all cycling-fan animals in the twitter-sphere / Forum-world and this isn't 1984.

    Would be genuinely pleased to hear your response to the other areas I raised and answer 1 simple thing - do you genuinely like Pro bike racing and can you watch it unfettered by doping outrage or suspicion? Did you enjoy the Vuelta '12 for example? I did the racing but like many I'm suer had mixed feelings given 2 of the 3 main participants. Still thought AC's move to take the lead on GC was the racing moment of the year.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    Failure to engage with point that transparency, openness and honest debate aren't achieved by whispering in a corner in a dm. Failure to understand that the twitter echo chamber is currently only amplifying a particular group of cycling fans, to the detriment of other voices, leading to a cliquey backslapping false mandate of the loudest. Failure to understand that real change comes from democratic, open, transparent grassroots organizations, not private clubs of hopefully well meaning individuals or self appointed revolutionary councils. If you're organizing a revolution then best to check with the peasants first. Failure to understand why going to CCN was wrong, not just because it caused blow back.

    None of these are criticisms of you as a person, none are insults, if this is an attack then it's a legitimate attack on your opinions and actions.

    I'd welcome a debate on this, if you wanted it, but I don't actually think you're willing or capable.
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  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    TWH well rob Hayles and the cherry juice gave me pause :wink: I also think there's a conflict of interest having sky/BC so intertwined with regards to the position of Cookson at the UCI. But the track team are swimming in a much smaller talent pool and I think the effectiveness of the track/road programme is a welcome innovation
  • jonomc4
    jonomc4 Posts: 891
    just a kind request - I often find it helps for people to summarise their facts: (it also saves me having to read 33 pages)

    So with bullet points I would love to know why Micron thinks Sky are doping - no hearsay allowed just the facts. That way we can see if there if evidence or just sour grapes.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    jonomc4 wrote:
    just a kind request - I often find it helps for people to summarise their facts: (it also saves me having to read 33 pages)

    So with bullet points I would love to know why Micron thinks Sky are doping - no hearsay allowed just the facts. That way we can see if there if evidence or just sour grapes.
    :lol:

    Evidence is a straight jacket to critical thinking. It gets in the way of pure reason.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    micron wrote:
    RR correct me if I'm wrong but the problem seems to be this:

    There's an easy solution - stop whingeing and get out there. For right or wrong forums aren't where it's at. Twitter, love it or hate it, is where the 'cool kids' are. Fran millar is on twitter and she's happy to engage. She'd love to hear from you I'm sure. But don't sit around moaning about it, get out and change it. Make your voice heard - it's clearly far better informed than mine.

    You know what I think? I think leading a little gang to attack someone you don't agree with and patently dislike, on another forum, is worse than puerile. I think setting up a thread specifically to sling insults around is pathetic. I also agree that I didn't cover myself in glory by descending to your level. I'd forgotten just how toxic forums can be. You know when you were all pulling your little stunt the other day I had a message from a passionate sky fan with whom I've debated all these issues - and many more - over the last year. He asked me if he'd ever been as ridiculous as you were being. I was at pains to reassure him that he never had been.

    So I guess your choice is whether you continue to seethe at what you see as my despicable modes operandi or whether you get out there and get your own voice heard. And I'd suggest the best way to do that is not by bullying and berating but by setting up your own influential twitter networks. Use, don't abuse.

    I hope you enjoy your ride


    Don't quite get this - you think RR and others should be active on Twitter stating 'I don't see any current evidence thats stands up that Sky & Wiggins are doping' , as opposed to letting the fact that they are racing, have obviously raised no passport issues and havent had a single test or whereabouts issue since setting up, speak for themselves? What is it RR etc are supposed to be changing? Their point is about people making accusations without facts. Perhaps we need a movement - "Ban Allegations Lacking Legal Support" ( you can all work out the acronym... ;-) )

    Also - assume you are being subversively Ironic when you state "leading a little gang to attack someone you don't agree with and patently dislike , on another forum, is worse than puerile" - when this is exactly what you know you are doing to Sky & Wiggins on Twitter?
    I don't detect that anyone on here "patently dislikes" you - as clearly this is generally all anon. and not real interaction. They are just repeatedly asking you to justify the slanderous stuff you glibly chuck around with some sort of boring old factual evidence. Maybe that just means we aren't the cool kids who can form our hard-held beliefs without having to worry about that sort of old-fashioned thing.
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Failure to engage with point that transparency, openness and honest debate aren't achieved by whispering in a corner in a dm. Failure to understand that the twitter echo chamber is currently only amplifying a particular group of cycling fans, to the detriment of other voices, leading to a cliquey backslapping false mandate of the loudest. Failure to understand that real change comes from democratic, open, transparent grassroots organizations, not private clubs of hopefully well meaning individuals or self appointed revolutionary councils. If you're organizing a revolution then best to check with the peasants first. Failure to understand why going to CCN was wrong, not just because it caused blow back.

    None of these are criticisms of you as a person, none are insults, if this is an attack then it's a legitimate attack on your opinions and actions.

    I'd welcome a debate on this, if you wanted it, but I don't actually think you're willing or capable.

    Second this. Much clearer summary than mine.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    micron wrote:
    TWH well rob Hayles and the cherry juice gave me pause :wink: I also think there's a conflict of interest having sky/BC so intertwined with regards to the position of Cookson at the UCI. But the track team are swimming in a much smaller talent pool and I think the effectiveness of the track/road programme is a welcome innovation

    You should go into politics

    Anyone reading that answer would be hard pushed to tell what the original question was.
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Micron

    Have you separated the success of British Cycling on the track from Sky on the road?

    Do you believe British track success to be also suspicious?

    Also there's one left hanging from twitter.
    @festinagirl So Yes or No. In your opinion was Wiggins using PEDs when he won the Tour De France? #oprahstyle
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • jonomc4
    jonomc4 Posts: 891
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    jonomc4 wrote:
    just a kind request - I often find it helps for people to summarise their facts: (it also saves me having to read 33 pages)

    So with bullet points I would love to know why Micron thinks Sky are doping - no hearsay allowed just the facts. That way we can see if there if evidence or just sour grapes.
    :lol:

    Evidence is a straight jacket to critical thinking. It gets in the way of pure reason.

    I will wait to see if there is a response - if not I will just write her off as another windbag - I have long since learned to get to the facts is a far simpler way to deal with things. I personally would be disappointed if the Sky team were cheating but that would never stop me from hearing the facts - but without facts I feel the person is just being a gobshite and should be ignored along with the many others of their ilk (they can no doubt keep on talking up their conspiracy theories with other like minded fools and kidding themselves that they have an audience and that they are relevant in this world) so I await the response before I judge, I will only judge on facts though.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    jonomc4 wrote:
    just a kind request - I often find it helps for people to summarise their facts: (it also saves me having to read 33 pages)

    So with bullet points I would love to know why Micron thinks Sky are doping - no hearsay allowed just the facts. That way we can see if there if evidence or just sour grapes.

    Jono, We've never met, but I think I love you :lol:
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Squaggles
    Squaggles Posts: 875
    micron wrote:
    RR correct me if I'm wrong but the problem seems to be this:

    You're angry because you perceive that my 'voice' is heard, is more influential than your own, when I'm so wrongheaded/I'll informed. I'm sure you're right. It must be galling to see someone you despise apparently having their opinions taken notice of when your own are not. The fundamental assumption is I'm a mouthy egoist who makes snarky comments so she can get invited to all the best parties.

    There's an easy solution - stop whingeing and get out there. For right or wrong forums aren't where it's at. Twitter, love it or hate it, is where the 'cool kids' are. Fran millar is on twitter and she's happy to engage. She'd love to hear from you I'm sure. But don't sit around moaning about it, get out and change it. Make your voice heard - it's clearly far better informed than mine.

    As for CCN - Scott and I had been working on a meeting of our own - we had Vroomen on board, a contact with Prudhomme (clang clang name drop alert). You see WE WERE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING. Instead of sitting around whining we got off our butts, made a few phone calls. Not sure what we hoped to achieve but we got gazumped by Fuller and his CCN agenda. He kindly invited us along - seeing as we had similar objectives. In retrospect, I wouldn't have gone given the shoot storm that ensued but you see I believe in standing up and fighting for what I believe in (why I stood as a councillor - because I believe passionately in things like social justice - I was not elected, unsurprising in a true blue constituency, but there's another failure of sky's due diligence for you).

    You know what I think? I think leading a little gang to attack someone you don't agree with and patently dislike, on another forum, is worse than puerile. I think setting up a thread specifically to sling insults around is pathetic. I also agree that I didn't cover myself in glory by descending to your level. I'd forgotten just how toxic forums can be. You know when you were all pulling your little stunt the other day I had a message from a passionate sky fan with whom I've debated all these issues - and many more - over the last year. He asked me if he'd ever been as ridiculous as you were being. I was at pains to reassure him that he never had been.

    So I guess your choice is whether you continue to seethe at what you see as my despicable modes operandi or whether you get out there and get your own voice heard. And I'd suggest the best way to do that is not by bullying and berating but by setting up your own influential twitter networks. Use, don't abuse.

    I hope you enjoy your ride

    I hope you enjoy your ride :lol:

    Thats some funny shit right there micron , good value
    The UCI are Clowns and Fools
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    YorkshireRaw wrote:

    Second this. Much clearer summary than mine.

    I was actually thinking exactly the same about your summary.

    How's that for mutual backslapping? :wink:
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    jonomc4 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    jonomc4 wrote:
    just a kind request - I often find it helps for people to summarise their facts: (it also saves me having to read 33 pages)

    So with bullet points I would love to know why Micron thinks Sky are doping - no hearsay allowed just the facts. That way we can see if there if evidence or just sour grapes.
    :lol:

    Evidence is a straight jacket to critical thinking. It gets in the way of pure reason.

    I will wait to see if there is a response - if not I will just write her off as another windbag - I have long since learned to get to the facts is a far simpler way to deal with things. I personally would be disappointed if the Sky team were cheating but that would never stop me from hearing the facts - but without facts I feel the person is just being a gobshite and should be ignored along with the many others of their ilk (they can no doubt keep on talking up their conspiracy theories with other like minded fools and kidding themselves that they have an audience and that they are relevant in this world) so I await the response before I judge, I will only judge on facts though.

    Put it this way, your post is pretty much an unwitting summary of 33 pages of this thread.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Not a doc: since you've already made up your mind, I'm guessing this is pointless but I'll take a deep breath and do my best.

    I DMed ddraver because I wanted to make a point to him that was getting lost in the general noise. I wanted to DM FF because frankly I don't agree with cluttering up forums with personal nonsense. Then I remembered what this thread had fairly rapidly degenerated into and realised that no holds we're barred. Nothing to do with openness, transparency or honesty and everything to do with trying to be civil.

    I wonder how often you have used twitter, or who you follow? Every users experience is different. I'm unsure where the assertion that one group of voices are amplified above the rest comes from. I'd be interested to know where that perception comes from. My own is that there are a hugely diverse range of voices on a hugely diverse range of topics. Many of my tweets are about politics, social justice, feminism, dogs, cute things my kid says. Most people I follow espouse equally diverse opinions. And I actively seek out opinions that diverge from my own. 'cliquey backslapping is about as far from my experience of twitter as is possible. But you couldn't possibly experience 'my twitter' unless you followed exactly who i follow and maybe your dislike of the medium comes from not understanding it correctly?

    I'm engaged in local grassroots politics and activism - I also work with disadvantaged young people and young offenders - I'm more than well aware how democracy does (or more often doesn't) work. I appreciate your point about revolutionary councils, I don't think you take mine about wanting to act, to make a difference. I'm interested why you thought going to CCN was wrong - you obviously have strong views on the subject and I'd be interested to hear them.

    I'm also interested to understand why I am not to take an extensive list of my perceived 'failures' as a personal criticism?

    I've tried to answer your points as honestly as possible and would welcome a proper, civil discussion though, alas, knowing that I make you extremely angry, I'm also unsure whether you are either willing or capable.

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