Sky and David Walsh
Comments
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Squirrelpie wrote:This thread has been well and truly hijacked.
What happened to David Walsh getting all access of sky?
In this forum we like to go where the mood takes us rather than rigidly sticking to the topic.
When Walsh writes something else, I'm sure we will discuss it/call him a Murdoch lackey sell-out.Twitter: @RichN950 -
ratsbeyfus wrote:
I'm slightly drunk though. I was on strike this afternoon. I'm not entirely sure why - pensions I think.Twitter: @RichN950 -
bockers wrote:u say there was evidence against Armstrong in 99 - when did you acknowledge it? In 99? Or after USADA? Because in 99 there was rumour & suspicion & innuendo. Still, as Brailsford says, hindsight is a wonderful thing
So, rumours from that time turned out to be true...big deal. It's asinine to use that to justify rumour-mongering based upon a hunch.0 -
RichN95 wrote:ratsbeyfus wrote:
I'm slightly drunk though. I was on strike this afternoon. I'm not entirely sure why - pensions I think.
OK... now you're rambling.
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micron wrote:Now to revolutionary councils - Benjamin franklin, John Adams and all the founding fathers of the USA were part of a revolutionary council. Sometimes they get the job done.
Pffft...And look how that ended up! The paradigm for unsustainable capitalist greed that has coated the globe in a suffocating slime of intellectual algae whilst arming every one of its paranoid inhabitants that can write 'muslims', 'commies',or 'want gun', as their reasons for wanting a gun...
The only good things to have come of the US are the blues/folk country & jazz, the end of slavery/segregation and Noam Chomski. In other words, the powerful human responses to idiots and repression.
And Charles Grodin - as we were saying the other day - he's good. Quite fond of Woody Allen, too - before the whole strange adopted-daughter relationship thing, though. Bill Hicks - could do with a few more like him. Oh - and Greg Lemond! What was I thinking!?! And Andy Hampsten - classy... Have I missed anything?0 -
Rich, you're following the fine tradition of Winston Churchill - wrote many of his finest speeches after a few libations.0
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As someone who follows a number of you on twitter (Inc FG) and dips into the BR forum and the clinic now and then, after trawling through all 35 pages of this thread I felt compelled to finally sign up and do a summary to justify the time spent reading it all and for anyone joining now who doesn't want to endure it.
Here's my two cents/summary (in brief as on phone).
Back to how the thread started, Walsh with open access to sky = good to the majority and a pat on the back to sky. Others won't be happy unless kimmage is handcuffed to wiggo (tandem?) for the giro and the tour.
Micron says she has secret evidence, but then says she doesn't. Everyone is a bit WTF was that all about.
Next twenty pages is mostly micron saying that sky COULD be cheating as they are doing well and others slamming her due to her lack of factual basis. As far as I can recall the sum facts were that they are winning, were consistent, worked with leinders and LA knew wiggins's power for a stage of P-N. I don't think she mentioned tenerife which was a surprise.
Anyway circular arguments followed for a Loooong time with FF sticking up for micron and little else emerging apart from the fact that Wiggins COULD be a Martian, have a motor in his bike or be taking cera or actually have an identical twin who does the mountains for him (may have used creative license there). Peaking was also discussed but came to the conclusion that whatever you do you could be doping.
Women's racing was briefly discussed, market forces got a bashing (bye bye economics MSc of mine).
Finally we are onto CCN and it's legitimacy.
There is one question that I am really struggling to get my head around at the end of all this.
FG/Micron, how did you not get voted in as councillor? Your arguments, often based on vague ambiguities are astounding, and often convincing despite some of their flaws, Mandleson would be proud! I think that's sort of a compliment-ish.
Sorry for typos - done on the phone as said before!0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:micron wrote:Now to revolutionary councils - Benjamin franklin, John Adams and all the founding fathers of the USA were part of a revolutionary council. Sometimes they get the job done.
Pffft...And look how that ended up! The paradigm for unsustainable capitalist greed that has coated the globe in a suffocating slime of intellectual algae whilst arming every one of its paranoid inhabitants that can write 'muslims', 'commies',or 'want gun', as their reasons for wanting a gun...
The only good things to have come of the US are the blues/folk country & jazz, the end of slavery/segregation and Noam Chomski. In other words, the powerful human responses to idiots and repression.
And Charles Grodin - as we were saying the other day - he's good. Quite fond of Woody Allen, too - before the whole strange adopted-daughter relationship thing, though. Bill Hicks - could do with a few more like him. Oh - and Greg Lemond! What was I thinking!?! And Andy Hampsten - classy... Have I missed anything?
I'll put in a good word for Ray LaMontagne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3pltmw6cmI0 -
I may be drunk - but in the morning I will be sober. But you will still be in Richmond.Richmond Racer wrote:Rich, you're following the fine tradition of Winston Churchill - wrote many of his finest speeches after a few libations.
(Not that that is a bad thing - Richmond, London or Richmond, Yorkshire?)Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
I may be drunk - but in the morning I will be sober. But you will still be in Richmond.Richmond Racer wrote:Rich, you're following the fine tradition of Winston Churchill - wrote many of his finest speeches after a few libations.
(Not that that is a bad thing - Richmond, London or Richmond, Yorkshire?)
From that quote, I'd be living in Clivedon0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:
Yep - but he'd get lobbed in with the "blues/folk country & jazz" lot. Whether he liked it or not.0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:
Yep - but he'd get lobbed in with the "blues/folk country & jazz" lot. Whether he liked it or not.
'spose
*sulks a bit*0 -
RichN95 wrote:AntiTroll wrote:Sorry for typos - done on the phone as said before!
Good god that was impressive for a phone. I wouldn't even contemplate something that big on a phone.
Stick around. I have a good feeling about you. I don't think you're our average Joe
You think AntiTroll might actually have opposing thumbs?0 -
micron wrote:...
I take above's point but I repeat, extraordinary situations sometimes call for extraordinary solutions. Imagine, you have the invite, you care about trying to clean up the shoot, what do you do? And what would you do to clean up the sport? The thing about CCN is that there is no structure. You want to be part of it you can be a part of it. Again, instead of moaning about disproportionate influence, exert some of your own. Unless you think that hein & pat are doing a dandy job of ******* the sport over?
OK you totally didn't understand what I was getting at with structure and agency. I do not mean structure as in a hierarchcial decision making process, an office and a set of accounts. I mean structure as in the material and discursive forces that creat power in our world. The CCN is representative of those with both material and discursive power and those within that structure that have more of those things and thus have more (conditional) agency because of it.
People have been trying to assert some influence of their own, the only problem is that for a lot of those people they don't speak English, or couldn't get the time off work to go to London, or can't get their voices heard because they have a measured opinion not one that broadcasts salacious gossip at 150 decibels in permanent tabloid headline mode. That this is lapped up by some and taken to be influence is a sad indictment of our society and part of the structure that restricts agency.micron wrote:Now to revolutionary councils - Benjamin franklin, John Adams and all the founding fathers of the USA were part of a revolutionary council. Sometimes they get the job done. I take above's point but I repeat, extraordinary situations sometimes call for extraordinary solutions.
Hey I love a revolution me and then I remember that revolutions just end up replacing one power structure with another. It's the real meaning of the word as first used by Thomas Hobbes and expanded on brilliantly by Hannah Arendt in her seminal work On Revolution. It's also what led to a split in the First International as the syndicalists realised that Engels simply proposed replacing a superstructure dominated by the ruling bourgeoisie with a dictatorship of the proletariat. This talk of replacing one unrepresentative power structure that has utterly failed with another through revolution is quite frankly quite disturbing for someone who wants to be an elected representative and has I would have thought a commitment to representative politics that seeks change through co-operation and compromise. As for the megolamania implied in drawing comparisons with the Founding Fathers... It's cycling it's not overthrowing the exploitation of the British metropole by the Burghers of Boston.Correlation is not causation.0 -
This thread is beginning to remind me of that Blackadder episode with Captain Rum - opinion is divided on the subject, all the other captains say it is and I say it isn't.
I had an open mind and was ready to listen to anything that could loosely be classed as reasonable grounds for suspiscion but despite 30 odd pages we are still at the nothing to remotely justify the slurs thrown in Sky's direction by Kimmage and his disciples. I'm not 100% certain Sky are clean but on the balance of probabilities I believe they are. Of course they could be on CERA, micro dosing, using some as yet unknown new drug or taking fairy dust but then so could anyone. May as well give up on the sport now when you become that cynical though. I think that's me done in the thread now unless something new and worthwhile comes up.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Come on Aurelio - I know you're out there somewhere.
Is Aurelio the name of Wiggins' dog?
Sorry I'll get my coat... :oops:Correlation is not causation.0 -
micron wrote:Drheadgear you flatter me with all this talk of having the ear of vaughters and top journalists. Vaughters uses twitter because he's canny enough to know that engaging with people builds credibility for his brand of 'clean cycling' - you want his ear? Tweet him. He'll engage. He's a pragmatic, cool operator. He'll answer anybodys questions. As will seaton or rendell or fotheringham. They're all approachable - you too could 'have their ear' if that's what's important to you. Go on, make your opinion heard, drown out the empty vessels. Otherwise stop whingeing about it when there's a simple solution.
Now to revolutionary councils - Benjamin franklin, John Adams and all the founding fathers of the USA were part of a revolutionary council. Sometimes they get the job done. I take above's point but I repeat, extraordinary situations sometimes call for extraordinary solutions. Imagine, you have the invite, you care about trying to clean up the shoot, what do you do? And what would you do to clean up the sport? The thing about CCN is that there is no structure. You want to be part of it you can be a part of it. Again, instead of moaning about disproportionate influence, exert some of your own. Unless you think that hein & pat are doing a dandy job of ******* the sport over?
I've had short conversations with several of those named above, but if your solution to "the forum is too noisy" is "shout louder" then you're missing the point. Good, healthy, debate is engendered by creating space for it, by allowing other voices to be heard, by actively encouraging other voices - not by raising the volume.
But eventually we did decide to shout louder, to actively challenge the smears and innuendos, which is why you've ended up on this forum, ironically with the complaint that we've been shouting loudly recently.
It is, of course, pure arrogance to tell people that if they want influence then they should get it through twitter, a medium that will never be worthwhile for debate. My dad used to watch cycling with me, he'll be turning 70 this year. He's not on twitter, being neither cool nor a kid. He's not on this forum either, not being middle-aged and untrendy. How will you canvass his opinion? Is he not a stakeholder because he's too old, too technologically backward, or what?
That's the sort of thing a genuine grassroots movement that was interested in inclusivity would take into account.
The main point about twitter, however, is that it encourages group-think, and once established that's notoriously difficult to change. The twaliban have gained some sort of critical mass that has co-opted the "debate", all within a self selecting and unrepresentative medium.
As for "extraordinary situations and extraordinary solutions", you're well into Animal Farm territory here. That's the language of the coup d'état, not the revolution. We aren't actually fighting an armed colonial oppressor, not matter what your twitter avatar might suggest. As for the founding fathers of the USA, if you want to make that comparison then I suggest you start all statements of policy with "We, the people" and see how far you get. After all, it worked for them.
I'm assuming the "anyone can be part of it" claim is some sort of poor joke. My invite was somehow lost in the post....
And on that basis, if I had been invited, and Rich and ddraver and RR and all the others hadn't, then yes, I'd have turned it down, and told them to come back when they were serious. Which is exactly what @velocentric said when asked if he'd step in (for you or @velocast - I can't remember). This was all explained to you, in tweets of 140 chars, before you even got to the conference.
So there we have it. My contention is that a group that seems to contain more than it's fair share of idiots and tin foil hat conspiracy theorists has:
1) seized hold of defining the cycling Zeitgeist on a medium that has an undue sphere of influence and lacks the qualities that engender real debate
2) has quite possibly helped to damage cycling by actively supporting an opaque, undemocratic, revolutionary council set up by a multi-millionaire whose motivations are unclear
3) and who are currently intent on smearing and slandering a team and rider who have staked their reputations on being clean and against who there is no evidence whatsoever aside from some idle conjecture and half baked theories about training and peaking.
What on earth is there not to admire about this loveable bunch?
I'm not jealous of your influence. I don't want it myself. Influence is a form of power, and we know where that leads. I just don't want you to have it either.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
micron wrote:And it's not about the doping, is it? It's about the corruption, the money laundering, the trafficking, the malfeasance, the poor governance. If sky are clean, I'm delighted - am I wrong to want them to shout it from the rooftops, to show strong leadership for the sport, to share good practice? Isn't that one very positive way that they could show the way. After all these are extraordinary times that demand extraordinary solutions. There was talk after Festina - I'm sure you remember - of setting the clock back to year zero. It didn't happen then, perhaps it needs to now. With a clear template for a better, cleaner cycling. Because you're right, we need to break the chain - we need to stop cynics like me seeing the patterns repeating.
I have to pull you up on a few points too I'm afraid
You want Sky shout that they re clean from the rooftops, but earlier you said that so much of your focus on them was because they did exactly that. I even saw the phrase holier than thou crop up!
Secondly, you point to a Year Zero when suddenly everything is clean (I admit this contradicts what i said in the other thread). However we say in 1999 that if the peloton suddenly becomes clean, some bloke takes advantage of that and cheats his way to an easy win. Now if that bloke is Lance Armstrong he does nt stop for 7 years. Perhaps it's actually better that this culture change happens slowly. However it happens though, criticising teams like Sky, Garmin and OGE will not encourage other teams to follow the right path.
Thirdly (Ok I thought of something else) - Sky are nt using anything magical, their methods can be found within the papers of Sports Science Journals all of which are available to anyone (who can pay - but that's another story). Sky have taken the time to assimilate all of this information, distill it down to what is applicable to cycling, and also have the money to put it all into practice.
As an aside, I agree with much of what NaD has said about the Twaliban, particularly them occupying a larger portion of the debate than they have deserved. Fans who are either not as devoted or just unwilling to spend hours on twitter simply do not have a voice anymore. Further, the actions, behaviour and words of them have shown that they are not capable of having the responsibility that they have developed. The behaviour of UCI Overlord over "plastergate" was disgraceful for example. Your little episode of making stuff up is also a good example. Sensible discussions about how to move the sport forward cannot happen when the participants behave like this!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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OCDuPalais wrote:
The only good things to have come of the US are the blues/folk country & jazz, the end of slavery/segregation and Noam Chomski. In other words, the powerful human responses to idiots and repression.
I hardly think we can give them credit for that.
But I'll add rock & roll, hamburgers, and the space programme. We could have a 'good things to come out of America' thread but that belongs in the Cake Stop
On topic: I'm biased. I want Sky/BC to be clean. I try not to let my bias colour my response to the facts too much. Some people seem to want them to be dirty, and I have a hard time understanding that. Nor do I see any evidence that these people either recognise their bias or make any effort to take it into account when assessing the arguments.
But as someone who very much wants Sky to be clean I see Brailsford's invitation to Walsh as immensely reassuring, and I'm really, really looking forward to Walsh's reporting this year.
edited to get quote correctly attributed.I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.0 -
Oh shit, I've gone into Bernie mode, haven't I?
Bugger.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Ahhh, people using things made by Americans to say that Americans are good for nothing. I love the internet.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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No tA Doctor wrote:My dad used to watch cycling with me, he'll be turning 70 this year. He's not on twitter, being neither cool nor a kid. He's not on this forum either, not being middle-aged and untrendy. How will you canvass his opinion? Is he not a stakeholder because he's too old, too technologically backward, or what?
Me too! Mine's a little older, 77, and has dementia now. It's partly why I joined here as my cycling sounding board is not really up to it anymore.
He does follow the odd race but can't remember who a lot of people are and gets things confused so discussing stuff is hard. Although he did come on skype earlier to tell me Cav had won Qatar. 
I've watched cycling with him all my life and he's been cycling all of his and no one asked his opinion. He'd have given you a good one too when he could, having tried his luck as an amateur in France until a heart problem and certain practices put paid to those dreams. Correlation is not causation.0 -
Calling it cheese is being generous.0
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Above The Cows wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:My dad used to watch cycling with me, he'll be turning 70 this year. He's not on twitter, being neither cool nor a kid. He's not on this forum either, not being middle-aged and untrendy. How will you canvass his opinion? Is he not a stakeholder because he's too old, too technologically backward, or what?
Me too! Mine's a little older, 77, and has dementia now. It's partly why I joined here as my cycling sounding board is not really up to it anymore. He does follow the odd race but can't remember who a lot of people are and gets things confused so discussing stuff is hard. Although he did come on skype earlier to tell me Cav had won Qatar. I've watched cycling with him all my life and he's been cycling all of his and no one asked his opinion. He'd have given you a good one too when he could, having tried his luck as an amateur in France until a heart problem and certain practices put paid to those dreams.
So sorry to hear about his condition - but yay that he knew Cav had won I bet he's been the source of great stories from his young cycling days. 0 -
Above The Cows wrote:My dad used to watch cycling with me, he'll be turning 70 this year. He's not on twitter, being neither cool nor a kid. He's not on this forum either, not being middle-aged and untrendy. How will you canvass his opinion? Is he not a stakeholder because he's too old, too technologically backward, or what?
My dad is 76. My mother is 71. They are both pretty healthy. However, they are currently on their month long 'training camp' at Tenerife - they do it every year. Tenerife = doping, as we know, so I am now auditioning for new parents (I want Martin Sheen and Helen Mirren).Twitter: @RichN950 -
Above The Cows wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:My dad used to watch cycling with me, he'll be turning 70 this year. He's not on twitter, being neither cool nor a kid. He's not on this forum either, not being middle-aged and untrendy. How will you canvass his opinion? Is he not a stakeholder because he's too old, too technologically backward, or what?
Me too! Mine's a little older, 77, and has dementia now. It's partly why I joined here as my cycling sounding board is not really up to it anymore. He does follow the odd race but can't remember who a lot of people are and gets things confused so discussing stuff is hard. Although he did come on skype earlier to tell me Cav had won Qatar. I've watched cycling with him all my life and he's been cycling all of his and no one asked his opinion. He'd have given you a good one too when he could, having tried his luck as an amateur in France until a heart problem and certain practices put paid to those dreams.
To be fair, he's not really all that interested really, he prefers going out for a ride to watching. He was quite keen on Hinault and then Fignon though. Never really warmed to Lemond, but that's probably because he's American (he does like jazz, blues and 60s soul though). ;-) But it wasn't a huge stretch of imagination to think of him as a committed fan of 40 or 50 years standing, so he worked as a rhetorical device. Sorry dad.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
