Sky and David Walsh

ocdupalais · February 2013

iainf72 wrote:

micron wrote:

As for vaughters - he says there's no money in women's racing and its not part of his brave new franchised world :evil:

Doesn't the market indicate there is no money in it? After all, if there was, someone would be making some cash

"The Market" is a lumbering cretin... and it's been used as a blunt bludgeoning tool of an excuse for decades (certainly since Thatcher) to cosh any voices requesting that those with the most influence and power do something to make a difference. "The Market says.... No. Sorry."

Where's all the innovation, creativity and invention that we're told not only defines the "entrepreneurial spirit", but actually creates the market? Whatever the original motives, this is what generated all the things we love, didn't it? The Tour, carbon bikes, er...Team Sky (admittedly, along with all the stuff we didn't... Lance Armstrong, stabilisers, er...Team Sky).

The other thing we've been told that defines "the entrepreneurial spirit" is risk-taking: a bit more of that in the sponsorship of women's racing might help.

ratsbeyfus · February 2013

OCDuPalais wrote:

Clever things.

You are really good at this forum stuff. Chapeau sir!

iainf72 · February 2013

OCDuPalais wrote:

Where's all the innovation, creativity and invention that we're told not only defines the "entrepreneurial spirit", but actually creates the market? Whatever the original motives, this is what generated all the things we love, didn't it? The Tour, carbon bikes, er...Team Sky (admittedly, along with all the stuff we didn't... Lance Armstrong, stabilisers, er...Team Sky).
.

That's the thing though - There is a lot of history. The money isn't there. Why isn't the money there, because in reality there isn't that much interest (for right or wrong) Would anyone want money poured into a black hole in the interests of equality?

micron · February 2013

OCD ah, the damned market - fine words sir

Iainf - but is the women's sport a black hole? It's on a roll in the UK, new women's teams springing up and a fine model of integration ready to go in Aus - besides, financially, as Gerard vroomen has pointed out, there's potentially a very small outlay involved in promoting & televising the women's sport - all the infrastructure is already in place. Plus, in vos, the women's sport has the best rider in the world at the moment. Be criminal Not to build on that

mroli · February 2013

I'd like to add - I'm a cyclist, I follow racing. I follow female racing the extent that I can. I have a daughter. I want her to grow up with sporting role models - I would happily watch female cycling until the cows come home anyway, but even more if I can watch the likes of Trott/Pooley/Armitstead/Vos/Bronzini race with her and show her that she can do these things.

If the UCI don't do it, then I'm going to watch ladies tennis or golf (or cricket as that's on now and we're (England) good at it)and she'll possibly find her role models that way.

And I may spend less time on my bike, buying bike stuff, involved with my club and more time taking her to tennis lessons/matches.

Its not just ignoring the 50%, its ignoring the 50% and the % that have a vested interest in the 50%.

Squaggles · February 2013

The market is very inefficient then , I would love to see more womens teams , more womens racing , more coverage on TV , my daughter also loves cycling

ocdupalais · February 2013

Here's a prediction: any business person or collective (I hear they call them "companies") with the balls - er, or ovaries(!?!) - to create an inspiring, sustainable and structured platform for women's racing to flourish in the next few years will see the returns outstrip any initial investment and operational costs by a multiple that would make even the bleakest of capitalist grin like a crapping dog.

Clearly, this ought to be something that the UCI grasps; but they're generally involved in "man's things" - the sort of thing that a little thing like me ought not to worry my pretty little head about.

BTW - this is now becoming merge-able with "Women's Racing" thread, isn't it?

(Ta for nice comments.)

inkyfingers · February 2013

The issue is that most investors are looking for a fairly short term return on their investment, anybody investing in women's cycling would have to be in for the long game and happy to take a fairly big risk on the sport getting significantly more coverage in the future. Sadly their aren't many investors like that around.

Sky invested in mens cycling and got a Tour winner splashed on the front of every newspaper in Europe within 3 years, can you honestly see any woman's team sponsor getting a return even remotely close to that?

frenchfighter · February 2013

EKIMIKE wrote:

micron wrote:

Or is it that you feel twitter has a disproportionate influence on the way cycling is reported? If so I couldn't agree more - think journos Reporting tweets as news is the height of laziness. It's one forum among many and I'd like all fans voices to get more of a hearing. So why not work with rather than against. Problem is, your attitude makes you seem as closed minded as that which you claim to abhor.

Nice, salient point IMO. Especially the bold bits.

As others had alluded to, Twitter is fundamentally flawed. Not that it should be ignored, just that it should be viewed with such consideration of its flaws.

It's far more suited to mundane matters like celebrity culture, consumer culture e.t.c. Basically, nothing fact based. It's all about provocation (direct insults, innuendo's, false assimilations) and it promotes an absolutist mentality (black or white).

Because it has gained a (disproportionate) foothold in mainstream media then I would agree that there is an argument for joining them. Problem is you can't be effective in making a point without being 'the other side of the coin' so to speak. Predictably the 'Twitter coin' had a continuum of sides which sustains something that would have possibly (read preferably) been a short term fad.

David Millar made a nice point about Kimmage - "don't fark with fanatics" - just let them be and appreciate their occasional brilliance. Twitter is a fanatic factory. It needs to be left alone.

Check check.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Frenchie puts up a pic of Eddy Boss looking beefy and I enjoy. It cuts both ways, eh?

Oh so you are an EBH fan. I should have guessed. I have got some great edits of him. You may want to look at this thread I started some time ago:
viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12650439&p=15614715

Richmond Racer wrote:

I could say something about the distinct lack of Bernie pics though...a severe disappointment. If any of you boys feel you'd like to be nice sometime, a Bernie photo extravaganza would work just fine.

I suspect you liked the ones I've posted recently. Got a whole batch of him also.

I was going to post a link then saw that Eki had got there first.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Btw micron, a race was on today - Qatar. Did you watch any of it?

Did you see OPQS/Pocket Rocket, eat the others for breakfast 3/4 times this week.

KieranHardman wrote:

I dont see why it isnt possible to have a season long peak.

Not do I, although maybe 'peak' is the wrong word - more 'season long form'. Contador has done it for the last 6 years. Also a huge red flag for doping for me is lack of consistency.

RichN95 wrote:

Now if you really want genuine six months of form then go and look at some of the pre-EPO guys

Yeah some crazy stuff from what I have read.

Turfle wrote:

Wiggins' 2012 was based on TTs.

2011 Tony Martin won big TTs in Feb, March, 9th of April and 30th of April, June, July, August, October.

Great time trialists tend to be great at time trials all year long.

Check, check, check. Which is why I suspect this year will not be anywhere near the same with the all round GT talent of Contador as well as the races being tailor made for a TT winner.

ddraver wrote:

^^^It would be better for your sanity if you don't bud...

I skimmed it. I concluded that most of it had very little info. Rich was good with his facts as usual, although I thought he got a little worked up when he is usually calm personified, and Iain had little but good things to say (didn't get worked up at all - nothing can ruffle this guy's feathers). Then lots of noise.

I'd describe the evolution of the thread as: relaxed, fitful, argumentative, sad, relieved, normal. Quite interesting going through the thread actually quickly and seeing many tried to have a go at micron but were secretly delighted you were chatting to her, then were quick to judge her departure, then relieved when she came back and took a more moderated approach so that she wouldn't leave again.

Finally, there are hardly any photos in this thread. My eyes are hurting from skimming this with no colour to break it up.

ddraver · February 2013

You missed all the fun on twitter too FF....

and be fair, regardless of what you think of sprint stages or the ToQ, all three of Cav's victories have been brilliant sprints to watch...

micron · February 2013

Qatar is a bizarre race - like cycling in a void - but the UCI would have us believe this is the future for cycling :roll: however, the al jezeera feed has been interesting, nice to get a chance to brush up on my Arabic

Richmond Racer · February 2013

You should have cut over to the English feed, micron, we talked lots about it here. It had Dave Harmon, plus Matt Rendell on a moto. It was great.

ddraver · February 2013

Ahem Carlton Kirby just let out a small tear.....

Richmond Racer · February 2013

oh noes. I confess - its all the rage now, after all - I sometimes gets their commentary a bit muddled up

*bows head in shame*

micron · February 2013

Caught some of mr Randell on his moto, complimented him on his performance - we both agreed he was no jaja

ocdupalais · February 2013

Richmond Racer wrote:

oh noes. I confess - its all the rage now, after all - I sometimes gets their commentary a bit muddled up

*bows head in shame*

RR!

FFS...

Here's a little mantra that might be helpful:
Harmon - Hexcellent
Kirby - Kwite good
McCrossan - McShite

Richmond Racer · February 2013

OCDuPalais wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

oh noes. I confess - its all the rage now, after all - I sometimes gets their commentary a bit muddled up

*bows head in shame*

RR!

FFS...

Here's a little mantra that might be helpful:
Harmon - Hexcellent
Kirby - Kwite good
McCrossan - McShite

He is toot. I would rather poke my eyes with hot needles than listen to him. Bah.

Richmond Racer · February 2013

micron wrote:

Caught some of mr Randell on his moto, complimented him on his performance - we both agreed he was no jaja

Of course you did

ocdupalais · February 2013

Richmond Racer wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

oh noes. I confess - its all the rage now, after all - I sometimes gets their commentary a bit muddled up

*bows head in shame*

RR!

FFS...

Here's a little mantra that might be helpful:
Harmon - Hexcellent
Kirby - Kwite good
McCrossan - McShite

He is toot. I would rather poke my eyes with hot needles than listen to him. Bah.

Woman-alive! Hallelujah and praise-be to my non-existent god that I don't worship at my altar that doesn't exist either because I'm an atheist... (Christ, with no symbols to represent my faith, what do I not pray to?)... but flipping heck he does my head in.
I try to be rational and figure that there must be those that think he's worthwhile; else, how'd he the gig? Plus, I'm generally a calm person, with a profound love for humanity; but he really can spoil my fukcing party...
This is a genuine question: as a humanitarian, how do you get someone the fukc out of my sport in a humane way that doesn't distress them and their family?

And when I say "my sport", of course I mean "our sport"*

*although I think you'll find, after scientific testing, it's more mine than yours - if you disagree I'll suspect you of not knowing what you're talking about and will ignore you.

micron · February 2013

RR you ever catch the France 2/3 tour coverage - highlight is generallyvJaja on the moto, especially now Fignon is gone

Would like to see rob hatch get more work - nice to hear non-Anglo names pronounced with some accuracy

Richmond Racer · February 2013

OCDP, on the McCrossan thing: that monotonous nasally voice...the knowledge that gets a bit shaky as soon as it involves more than a couple of prior years of cycling 'history', the absence of any real understanding of the latest runners and riders and team situation outside of British pro and conti teams.....

Arrgggghhhhh!

(bloody good question: how DID he get a gig?)

frenchfighter · February 2013

micron wrote:

RR you ever catch the France 2/3 tour coverage - highlight is generallyvJaja on the moto, especially now Fignon is gone

Quite. Remember listening first time when at my grandad's one year and couldn't believe how much better it was. From then on I always watched it with the French commentary. Fignon was better than Jalabert though - was hanging off his every word.

micron · February 2013

FF fignon Was a thing of beauty on a bike - and one of the best commentators off it. But that last tour he did, when the cancer was eating him & his voice was so hoarse it was barely audible? Wept buckets. Visited his plaque in pere lachaise last year - it's a discreet tribute to one f the true greats of the sport.

inkyfingers · February 2013

Fignon is and is likely to remain my favourite pro cyclist. Made me realise that panache isn't just a french version of shandy!

micron · February 2013

Agreed, inky - that period of the sport was just magical - for me the last true golden aged, doped or not

Macaloon · February 2013

Forgive me if I missed it, but I'm looking for a round-up of the "Peak Wiggins" question. Micron introduced the Veloclinic theory that Wiggins could not possibly have sustained a performance level of such magnitude and duration without doping. This was followed by a discussion of actual results which seemed to me to refute "Peak Wiggins". I did not see a single counter-argument to balance the refutation.

So micron, since you brought it to the table, do you support Veloclinic's peak theory, or the refutation posted by many here?

micron · February 2013

I'm here to hear some different voices - I think there are strong arguments on both sides - I can also see why what proves one argument also proves the other (sorry for the inelegant phrasing). So my answer would probably be along the lines of - you all make very salient points about the 'believability' of Wiggins 2012 season, particularly in refuting the 'one long peak' theory. But no one has, as far as I'm aware addressed the 'what if' question - for example 'what if Wiggins was microdosing/ using CERA'?

I appreciate that you take the 'trust but verify' approach here as opposed to that of an old, seen it all, Festina hardened cynic like myself - as I say, genuinely here to learn (and get bitchslapped when appropriate

)

Also still interested to hear theories as to why Ferrari had Wiggins SRM data after Paris-Nice prologue 2009

above_the_cows · February 2013

OCDuPalais wrote:

This is a genuine question: as a humanitarian, how do you get someone the fukc out of my sport in a humane way that doesn't distress them and their family?

I can help here, this is actually something I know a lot about.

Ever since the Ethiopian famine and the interventions of amongst others, Medecins Sans Frontieres, humanitarianism has been discussed, by people like Rony Brauman former MSF head, as a form of Arendtian/Augustinian 'lesser evil' based around the idea that you put people in refugee/famine camps which denies them many rights but it is a lesser evil because you are trying to save their lives. You could see getting rid of McCrossan as a sort of lesser evil. It would be bad to get rid of him, but he is so awful that it would be for the benefit of many more. I for one would support such an endeavour if only to never have to hear him say Peter Sagan ever again.

Crozza · February 2013

micron wrote:

Also still interested to hear theories as to why Ferrari had Wiggins SRM data after Paris-Nice prologue 2009

Wiggins told LA
Wiggins mentioned it to someone else, and LA (or a member of his team) overheard
a member of Wiggin's team told someone, and a member of LA's team overheard
Armstrong/Ferrari had a lowly paid soigneur in their pocket to feed them useful info

LA mentions it in his email, not Ferrari, so could easily be one of the above

what struck me about those emails is how amateur it all seemed - they look like the emails I sent to my mate who helps me with a few bike sessions (but without all the € symbols!)

also makes me think that if Sky brought a very scientific approach to everything, monitoring all their riders and telling them exactly what to do, they would have a good chance of being succesful if they were the only ones doing it

Cavendish's recent interview about OPQS bears out that other teams are not yet at that level

bockers · February 2013

Macaloon wrote:

Forgive me if I missed it, but I'm looking for a round-up of the "Peak Wiggins" question. Micron introduced the Veloclinic theory that Wiggins could not possibly have sustained a performance level of such magnitude and duration without doping. This was followed by a discussion of actual results which seemed to me to refute "Peak Wiggins". I did not see a single counter-argument to balance the refutation.

So micron, since you brought it to the table, do you support Veloclinic's peak theory, or the refutation posted by many here?

Some Veloclini bloke thinks Wiggins peaked and that is evidence he is on PEDs :roll:

Various evidence that he did and did not, take you pick
Then discussion on what constitutes a peak.
Then lots of theories if peaking shows PED abuse or not.

Then confusion about what we are really trying to prove, as you can’t prove a negative. :?

Then reminiscing about the Hianult Lemond era.

Think that sums it up.

Sky and David Walsh

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