Puerto trial

mike6

DeadCalm wrote:

mike6 wrote:

True, but its about time some hot shot lawyer started arguing that doping, in pro sport, is fraud. Fraud is a crime in the UK and in Spain I would presume.

Hot shot lawyers don't tend to work for the CPS*. And generally the CPS don't tend to initiate prosecutions the police do. The UK police are only interested in solving crimes with statistics they are measured against, they're certainly not going to invest resources in adding new crimes to the statistics. The sad reality is that the Puerto investigation wouldn't have happened in the UK because nobody would have bothered.

*Apologies to any lawyer reading this who does work for the CPS, no doubt you are a fine and upstanding lawyer.

By the same token a hot shot lawyer, employed by a pro cyclist who has been cheated out of a win, and by default, a bigger contract, by a doper, might just. As I say, fraud.

No_Ta_Doctor

mike6 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

mike6 wrote:

True, but its about time some hot shot lawyer started arguing that doping, in pro sport, is fraud. Fraud is a crime in the UK and in Spain I would presume.

Hot shot lawyers don't tend to work for the CPS*. And generally the CPS don't tend to initiate prosecutions the police do. The UK police are only interested in solving crimes with statistics they are measured against, they're certainly not going to invest resources in adding new crimes to the statistics. The sad reality is that the Puerto investigation wouldn't have happened in the UK because nobody would have bothered.

*Apologies to any lawyer reading this who does work for the CPS, no doubt you are a fine and upstanding lawyer.

By the same token a hot shot lawyer, employed by a pro cyclist who has been cheated out of a win, and by default, a bigger contract, by a doper, might just. As I say, fraud.

That would still be a civil proceeding, not a criminal one.

DeadCalm

mike6 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

mike6 wrote:

True, but its about time some hot shot lawyer started arguing that doping, in pro sport, is fraud. Fraud is a crime in the UK and in Spain I would presume.

Hot shot lawyers don't tend to work for the CPS*. And generally the CPS don't tend to initiate prosecutions the police do. The UK police are only interested in solving crimes with statistics they are measured against, they're certainly not going to invest resources in adding new crimes to the statistics. The sad reality is that the Puerto investigation wouldn't have happened in the UK because nobody would have bothered.

*Apologies to any lawyer reading this who does work for the CPS, no doubt you are a fine and upstanding lawyer.

By the same token a hot shot lawyer, employed by a pro cyclist who has been cheated out of a win, and by default, a bigger contract, by a doper, might just. As I say, fraud.

A public prosecution? Now there's an idea. But you'd need to find a runner up with incredibly deep pockets to fund a case of that nature. I'd guess at a minimum middle six figures, possibly more. And even if they won they'd get nothing for it except the satisfaction of seeing the cheat convicted and sentenced.

A civil action is a possibility. No idea what the cause of action would be (I'm an ex-lawyer but it wasn't my field of specialty and I wasn't a hot shot anyway) but I'm sure that one could be found. It wouldn't be fraud though which is a criminal offence as opposed to a civil cause of action and so the cheat would only suffer financially if they were to lose the case. At least the runner-up might get some cash although it'd be pretty hard to quantify actual damages.

Edit: And what No tA Doctor said more succinctly...

knedlicky

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them

What are Wada supposed to test them for? To identify whose blood was in any bag, DNA samples would also have to be collected from 'suspect' riders, to see if there were any matches. And there is no easy way to require anyone to give a DNA sample.

Only two blood bags have actually been definitely identified, Ullrich's (who was pressurised in Germany into giving a DNA sample) and Valverde's (who had a sample taken when the TdF made an excursion in Italy).
Anyway, that Fuentes held blood from various athletes does not prove that those athletes were doping, no matter how likely that was. Both Ullrich and Valverde still refuted doping even when it was established it was their blood in bags; but in their cases there was also circumstantial evidence which led to them being found guilty.

The other riders found guilty of doping with Fuentes (nine, I think) all outed themselves; their blood bags were never tested.

Murray, Cooke and Radcliffe and everyone else wanting the blood bags to be retained are being naïve about what one can do with them.

sherer wrote:

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

As far as I understand, the Fuentes’ documents do no more than correlate blood bags to nicknames, and there is no other document identifying the real names associated with the nicknames.
Although the Spanish Justice ‘think’ they can say to whom most of the nicknames refer, they apparently only have definite proof in a few cases, mostly the 11 already known to be guilty.
I'd say there needs to be more evidence before WADA could 'expose' any of Fuentes' athletes.

knedlicky

Pross wrote:

Surely time for the IOC to act on countries like Spain who appear to protect dopers? Start banning them from Olympic competition. They should start by kicking out the Spanish application for the 2020 games out right now

One could also argue it was very incorrect for the IOC to have given the Olympics to London, because (unlike in Spain) doping in sport isn’t illegal in the UK.

knedlicky

Term1te wrote:

There has been some talk regarding the recent race horse doping scandal, of preventing horses trained in countries with more lax doping rules from running in the UK.

In the USA, most racehorses are legally doped daily with diuretics, and they get steroids when not in competition. There are also annually about 1300 discovered cases of illegal horse doping there, i.e. beyond the legal doping which the USA already allows.
Do American horses still race in the Grand National? I can remember American horses taking part 20 or so years ago, so presumably they were doped.

One of the different things about doping in horse racing, compared to cycling, is that horses can be doped to lose, usually in conjunction with betting fraud, e.g. to get better odds for a future race.

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

Do American horses still race in the Grand National? I can remember American horses taking part 20 or so years ago, so presumably they were doped.

No. I don't think there ever has been to be honest. They don't really have jump racing in America. Bar the very occasional horse from France or Czech Republic, it's just UK and Ireland.

danlikesbikes

knedlicky wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them

What are Wada supposed to test them for? To identify whose blood was in any bag, DNA samples would also have to be collected from 'suspect' riders, to see if there were any matches. And there is no easy way to require anyone to give a DNA sample.

Only two blood bags have actually been definitely identified, Ullrich's (who was pressurised in Germany into giving a DNA sample) and Valverde's (who had a sample taken when the TdF made an excursion in Italy).
Anyway, that Fuentes held blood from various athletes does not prove that those athletes were doping, no matter how likely that was. Both Ullrich and Valverde still refuted doping even when it was established it was their blood in bags; but in their cases there was also circumstantial evidence which led to them being found guilty.

The other riders found guilty of doping with Fuentes (nine, I think) all outed themselves; their blood bags were never tested.

Murray, Cooke and Radcliffe and everyone else wanting the blood bags to be retained are being naïve about what one can do with them.

sherer wrote:

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

As far as I understand, the Fuentes’ documents do no more than correlate blood bags to nicknames, and there is no other document identifying the real names associated with the nicknames.
Although the Spanish Justice ‘think’ they can say to whom most of the nicknames refer, they apparently only have definite proof in a few cases, mostly the 11 already known to be guilty.
I'd say there needs to be more evidence before WADA could 'expose' any of Fuentes' athletes.

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA. Unless you thought I was suggesting that they obtain the blood bags and then go all CSI trying to get a bidon from each rider to test against.

iainf72

Danlikesbikes wrote:

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA. Unless you thought I was suggesting that they obtain the blood bags and then go all CSI trying to get a bidon from each rider to test against.

They don't store DNA information. And they might hold blood samples but I suspect it would violate many rules to try get DNA from them and then use it in this manner.

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA. Unless you thought I was suggesting that they obtain the blood bags and then go all CSI trying to get a bidon from each rider to test against.

They don't store DNA information. And they might hold blood samples but I suspect it would violate many rules to try get DNA from them and then use it in this manner.

I suspect it would seriously violate quite a few laws.

danlikesbikes

iainf72 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA. Unless you thought I was suggesting that they obtain the blood bags and then go all CSI trying to get a bidon from each rider to test against.

They don't store DNA information. And they might hold blood samples but I suspect it would violate many rules to try get DNA from them and then use it in this manner.

Why would WADA not store DNA? They use it as part of the test for urine & blood when testing amongst all the other tests & surly they would need to store the results along with the other test results for a length of time if urine & blood are frozen for possible later testing.

RichN95.

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Why would WADA not store DNA?

Because it's illegal to do so.

danlikesbikes

RichN95 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Why would WADA not store DNA?

Because it's illegal to do so.

Based on what? The WADA code states that they can store samples and test results in line with data protection laws.

RichN95.

Danlikesbikes wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Why would WADA not store DNA?

Because it's illegal to do so.

Based on what? The WADA code states that they can store samples and test results in line with data protection laws.

They can store samples - that's different. The sportsmen have consented to having that tested. But DNA - that's a whole different viper's nest. WADA aren't law enforcement (who have their own stringent regulations) so what they can do with things such as data protection and human rights legislation is pretty limited.

I know that you may not think it, but there are legal issues more important than cheating at sports at play here.

danlikesbikes

RichN95 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Why would WADA not store DNA?

Because it's illegal to do so.

Based on what? The WADA code states that they can store samples and test results in line with data protection laws.

They can store samples - that's different. The sportsmen have consented to having that tested. But DNA - that's a whole different viper's nest. WADA aren't law enforcement (who have their own stringent regulations) so what they can do with things such as data protection and human rights legislation is pretty limited.

I know that you may not think it, but there are legal issues more important than cheating at sports at play here.

No I do think that legal issues are important, however as I said WADA test for it & therefore safe to assume they store the data of that test along with all others but I don't know what laws WADA would be breaking by storing amongst all the other info they store DNA.

I'm no expert and thats the only reason why I posted my question as I am not sure what laws they would be breaking by doing so? The riders know & have given consent to be tested & are also aware that tests are stored along with the results, as far as I know the chain of custody is sound & no DPA laws are being broken.

knedlicky

Danlikesbikes wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them

What are Wada supposed to test them for?

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA.

Danlikesbikes wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

To answer your question as to what WADA are supposed to test them for, would seem obvious that they test them against their existing rider bloody database for DNA.

They don't store DNA information. And they might hold blood samples but I suspect it would violate many rules to try get DNA from them and then use it in this manner.

Why would WADA not store DNA? They use it as part of the test for urine & blood when testing amongst all the other tests

As others have also stated, WADA don’t have DNA databases and they’d be violating human rights laws if they tried to. The UCI riders’ biological passport also doesn’t record DNA profiles, and, although I don’t know the laboratory procedures in regular testing for doping, I wouldn’t be sure DNA is then investigated either, as you seem to think.

As example of the legality or not of keeping DNA records, according the European Human Rights Convention, fingerprints and DNA records of people taken into police custody but then not charged, or found innocent if charged, aren’t supposed to be kept.
I know WADA aren’t under the EU, but how would WADA justify keeping records when in Europe it’s judged against human rights for police authorities to keep records of people with no conviction?

(Contrary to the Convention, and unlike elsewhere in Europe, the English Police do keep records of innocent people for 6 years – currently of about 1 million people. The European Court of Human Rights has criticised this, consequently the current government has spoken about compromising, by reducing the period to 3 years)

thomthom

"In early 2009 the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to blood seized in the Operación Puerto investigation"

danlikesbikes

knedlicky wrote:

As others have also stated, WADA don’t have DNA databases and they’d be violating human rights laws if they tried to. The UCI riders’ biological passport also doesn’t record DNA profiles, and, although I don’t know the laboratory procedures in regular testing for doping, I wouldn’t be sure DNA is then investigated either, as you seem to think.

As example of the legality or not of keeping DNA records, according the European Human Rights Convention, fingerprints and DNA records of people taken into police custody but then not charged, or found innocent if charged, aren’t supposed to be kept.
I know WADA aren’t under the EU, but how would WADA justify keeping records when in Europe it’s judged against human rights for police authorities to keep records of people with no conviction?

(Contrary to the Convention, and unlike elsewhere in Europe, the English Police do keep records of innocent people for 6 years – currently of about 1 million people. The European Court of Human Rights has criticised this, consequently the current government has spoken about compromising, by reducing the period to 3 years)

OK park to one side the fact that WADA may or may not keep DNA on record, though am still not sure of what human rights laws are being broken??? All athletes are aware of the WADA code and it's statement that testing undertaken on blood, urine & breath tests will include DNA testing & have therefore given their authority.

The ECHR comments refer to a criminal data base however we are talking about athletes who in agreeing to use the WADA ADAMS system are agreeing to their info being collected and stored. I get what your saying about Civil Rights Laws but there are for people who do not want their data stored and as I have already stated we are talking about athletes that have agreed.

If the blood bags were given to them as part of the Puerto trial what laws would they be breaking in testing them for DNA against their existing samples for riders?

As part of the WADA code athletes already agree to testing for amongst other things DNA tests, so there is no issue over consent so what is to stop WADA from doing it this way?

I'm aware that the passport system does not use DNA as part of its marker system, however they use DNA testing (assume for checking that the sample matches the rider, but don't know enough about it myself) as part of their protocol and do not hide the fact.

danlikesbikes

ThomThom wrote:

"In early 2009 the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to blood seized in the Operación Puerto investigation"

UCI release concerning this is quite long but the highlights are below. It does not say how they were tested against the ride, but assume either from its own database or against existing samples held for that rider. Either way suggest that they are able to and do this sort of work. Guess that is why they were requesting the blood bags be sent over once the Puerto trial finished.

For example, in the Valverde case the Italian Carabinieri were able to arrange for the collection of a sample from the cyclist, and its storage and transportation to their forensic laboratory, in a manner that respected the requirements of the relevant WADA Standards, so that the UCI and WADA were able to rely on the results of the
22
laboratory’s DNA analysis of that sample in the proceedings against Valverde before the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

iainf72

Danlikesbikes wrote:

I'm aware that the passport system does not use DNA as part of its marker system, however they use DNA testing (assume for checking that the sample matches the rider, but don't know enough about it myself) as part of their protocol and do not hide the fact.

They don't do DNA testing. The sample collection and chain of custody rules make sure the sample is correct. Remember, the labs don't know who they're testing, so having DNA would be irrelevant. You can however ask for a DNA test to be done to clear yourself

danlikesbikes

iainf72 wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

I'm aware that the passport system does not use DNA as part of its marker system, however they use DNA testing (assume for checking that the sample matches the rider, but don't know enough about it myself) as part of their protocol and do not hide the fact.

They don't do DNA testing. The sample collection and chain of custody rules make sure the sample is correct. Remember, the labs don't know who they're testing, so having DNA would be irrelevant. You can however ask for a DNA test to be done to clear yourself

Pretty sure its on page 39 of the WADA code;

Samples shall be analyzed to detect Prohibited Substances and Prohibited Methods identified on the Prohibited List and other substances as may be directed by WADA pursuant to Article 4.5 (Monitoring Program), or to assist an Anti-Doping Organization in profiling relevant parameters in an Athlete’s urine, blood or other matrix, including DNA or genomic profiling, for anti-doping purposes.

knedlicky

Danlikesbikes wrote:

ThomThom wrote:

"In early 2009 the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to blood seized in the Operación Puerto investigation"

UCI release concerning this is quite long .... It does not say how they (DNA samples) were tested against the rider, but assume either from its own database or against existing samples held for that rider.

I don’t know the UCI release, but as far as I understand, Valverde’s DNA in blood taken from him on the TdF rest day was compared with the DNA in the blood bag titled ‘Valv. Piti’, not with any records or samples the UCI had.

The nickname so highly suggested it to be Valverde, that the UCI tried to get him banned from the WC in 2007, but they failed when it went before CAS. And I think then that there was probably talk behind closed doors to still ‘get him’, CONI being brought in because by then Italy had made sport-doping illegal. So they waited till he set foot in Italy.

Italian sport-doping laws make it possible for suspects not just be required to give blood, as might be the case in any doping control, but also allows the authorities to then analyse its DNA if they have grounds for suspicion.

Even then, it shouldn’t have been possible for CONI to compare the DNA from the TdF sample with the DNA of the blood in a Fuentes bag because the Spanish judge in the Fuentes investigation hadn’t agreed to allow any of Fuentes collected blood or blood analyses to be used in investigations outside Spain. But somehow (maybe under the table) CONI managed to get the a hold of the analysis from the ‘Valv. Piti’ bag.

So it’s not a clear cut case which could be easily followed again.

danlikesbikes

knedlicky wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

ThomThom wrote:

"In early 2009 the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to blood seized in the Operación Puerto investigation"

UCI release concerning this is quite long .... It does not say how they (DNA samples) were tested against the rider, but assume either from its own database or against existing samples held for that rider.

I don’t know the UCI release, but as far as I understand, Valverde’s DNA in blood taken from him on the TdF rest day was compared with the DNA in the blood bag titled ‘Valv. Piti’, not with any records or samples the UCI had.

The nickname so highly suggested it to be Valverde, that the UCI tried to get him banned from the WC in 2007, but they failed when it went before CAS. And I think then that there was probably talk behind closed doors to still ‘get him’, CONI being brought in because by then Italy had made sport-doping illegal. So they waited till he set foot in Italy.

Italian sport-doping laws make it possible for suspects not just be required to give blood, as might be the case in any doping control, but also allows the authorities to then analyse its DNA if they have grounds for suspicion.

Even then, it shouldn’t have been possible for CONI to compare the DNA from the TdF sample with the DNA of the blood in a Fuentes bag because the Spanish judge in the Fuentes investigation hadn’t agreed to allow any of Fuentes collected blood or blood analyses to be used in investigations outside Spain. But somehow (maybe under the table) CONI managed to get the a hold of the analysis from the ‘Valv. Piti’ bag.

So it’s not a clear cut case which could be easily followed again.

Sorry said UCI & it was a WADA release, not 100% sure of the history myself but the below from WADA suggests that the blood from the bags was DNA tested against other competition samples. Also suggests that getting the samples was not under the table but through criminal law as was previously denied by the Spanish Judge.

In regards to the Valverde case, he stated that WADA had been in front of CAS for over a year and that the case had not been moving forward because of the key evidence to prove that the blood bag seized during the Puerto Operation belonged to Mr Valverde. He explained that WADA tried to get a portion of the blood bag from the Spanish judge, through civil corporation and through CAS but that we had been denied this right every time. WADA had also appealed at the Spanish level, but nothing had moved.
He explained that, the Italians, through CONI and through their criminal Law, are able to obtain cooperation at the criminal level rather than at the civil level, and had thereby managed to get access to the blood bag and to bring portions of it back to Italy, including Mr Valverde’s bag. The Spanish judge accepted that the blood bag be taken, and the Italian police took the blood bag to Italy. The other judge, upon return from vacation, reversed the order. Unfortunately, the blood bag had already been taken away, and therefore not much could be done. The Italian police compared the DNA from the blood bag and samples taken from previous competitions

little ring needed

Danlikesbikes wrote:

The Spanish judge accepted that the blood bag be taken, and the Italian police took the blood bag to Italy. The other judge, upon return from vacation, reversed the order. Unfortunately, the blood bag had already been taken away, and therefore not much could be done. The Italian police compared the DNA from the blood bag and samples taken from previous competitions

I looked for this story a few days ago and could not confirm my memory. Dan, an absolutely superb post - thank you very much. Absolutely completely destroys the argument "trust Judgy - he knows best". All that "we are smarter than you - there are important legal issues here, you don't want us to behave like a banana republik and break our laws do you now" cobblers. Laws are not that specific. The requirement is that the Judge goes back to what the intention was and applies that fairly.

This is simple. Post Festina everyone knew what was going on. The athletes were doping on an industrial scale and the tests were totally ineffective. Legislation needed to be put into place. Lance, Valverde, Big Jan, Ivan, David Millar and the rest knew that Spain was the place to come to. Do what you want and nobody seems to care. Girona was little America for the Cycling community. The s h i t has hit the fan and Spain don't have the structure to deal with it. It's Spain and it is run by the Spanish exactly how the Spaniards want to run it. A judge has interpreted their laws and now it is up to the rest of the World to give its verdict. Destroy the blood bags, but don't come looking for favours from the rest of the sporting community until you have robust legislation in place to ensure that if this were to happen again you would not be fully co-operative with other nations attempting to determine the identity of the blood and can show that you have the spine to expose your own sports stars who cheat.

danlikesbikes

OK so many of us have seen & read plenty of sports people condemning the trial & that the only ones who benefit are the cheats. So for balance I thought I would post the comments of Rafa Nadal, can only assume that the last line is a communication issue not that he means we should stop talking about doping altogether because it damages the image of Spanish athletes (insert emoji for smile with an element of sarcasm due to suggestions that he might/might not be involved in being clean/doping in some way)

Spanish tennis player Rafa Nadal, the world number five, added his voice to the criticism of the verdict on Friday, saying "the only people who benefited were the cheats".

"With something that damages the image of sport so severely, the ones who are affected are us the Spanish athletes and sport in general," he told a promotional event in Madrid.

"I think the best thing that could happen is that we stop talking about the issue."

Tom Butcher

Perhaps a compromise could have been reached - blood bags to be given to wada unless an athlete comes forwards to object to that happening to their bag.

iainf72

Tom Butcher wrote:

Perhaps a compromise could have been reached - blood bags to be given to wada unless an athlete comes forwards to object to that happening to their bag.

If the bags were going to be given to WADA, that's exactly what would happen. Someone would claim it as their property, and it could be done anonymously through the courts.

danlikesbikes

Tom Butcher wrote:

Perhaps a compromise could have been reached - blood bags to be given to wada unless an athlete comes forwards to object to that happening to their bag.

Personally see no need for compromise, no one has yet come forward with any reason why the bags should not be forwarded to WADA as all professional athletes (voluntarily) agree to its code & that blood can be tested for DNA against existing samples. The Spanish authorities were the ones who suggested to WADA in the first place that they would give up the bags post court case.

I do confess to not being an expert in Spanish law so can see that there might/might not be some law being broken if blood impounded as part of a criminal investigation handed over to a none legal body such as WADA? However suggestions that WADA can not test for DNA or that it breaks anyones civil liberties when they have voluntarily agreed to such testing has thus far to be proven.

Edit: Worth also adding that I understand there may be some legal complications over how the bloody was collected, taken during the raid & then passed over too.

DeadCalm

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Perhaps a compromise could have been reached - blood bags to be given to wada unless an athlete comes forwards to object to that happening to their bag.

Personally see no need for compromise, no one has yet come forward with any reason why the bags should not be forwarded to WADA as all professional athletes (voluntarily) agree to its code & that blood can be tested for DNA against existing samples. The Spanish authorities were the ones who suggested to WADA in the first place that they would give up the bags post court case.

I do confess to not being an expert in Spanish law so can see that there might/might not be some law being broken if blood impounded as part of a criminal investigation handed over to a none legal body such as WADA? However suggestions that WADA can not test for DNA or that it breaks anyones civil liberties when they have voluntarily agreed to such testing has thus far to be proven.

Edit: Worth also adding that I understand there may be some legal complications over how the bloody was collected, taken during the raid & then passed over too.

Dan, I agree with you that there is nothing to stop WADA from testing the DNA if the samples were to come into their hands. However, the law of Spain will trump the WADA code so assuming that Spanish law states that blood impounded as part of a criminal investigation cannot be used in a civil proceeding (and I too am no expert on Spanish law but it is an entirely understandable and in fact perfectly reasonable law) then whatever the WADA code might say is irrelevant because they should not get their hands on the blood bags.

Although I am disagreeing with you on this point I would like to thank you for your contribution to this debate which has been positive, reasoned and mature. I know a lot more about the WADA code than I did before as a result.

danlikesbikes

DeadCalm wrote:

Dan, I agree with you that there is nothing to stop WADA from testing the DNA if the samples were to come into their hands. However, the law of Spain will trump the WADA code so assuming that Spanish law states that blood impounded as part of a criminal investigation cannot be used in a civil proceeding (and I too am no expert on Spanish law but it is an entirely understandable and in fact perfectly reasonable law) then whatever the WADA code might say is irrelevant because they should not get their hands on the blood bags.

Although I am disagreeing with you on this point I would like to thank you for your contribution to this debate which has been positive, reasoned and mature. I know a lot more about the WADA code than I did before as a result.

I don't think you are disagreeing with me as I am quite happy to admit that my knowledge of the Spanish legal system is pretty much zero & is perfectly peasable laws may restrict the passing of evidence from a criminal case. I did find the WADA statement quite enlightening as they were advised by the Spanish that they would have access to the bags which prompted their involvement. Guess we will see in what 11 days what if any appeal is lodged.

Edit: thanks for the compliment just presenting what I know about WADA (long and boring story) and its workings.