Puerto trial

Der Kaiser

RichN95 wrote:

Le Commentateur wrote:

Apparently some footballer's names are known but injunctions are preventing publication.

R*** ****s

Viagra?

dolan_driver

The Spanish Justice system is a bad joke.

Cycling gets the usual bum deal as well. The cyclist's names are out in the open but none of the other athletes are released, because it is an invasion of their privacy? Well don't fookin take performance-enhancing drugs then!

DD.

sherer

think I might rob a bank in Spain then when they try to put me in prison for it claim the investigation was an invasion of my privacy

MrT

Any chance of getting Mr Walsh on the case?

Richmond Racer

MrT wrote:

Any chance of getting Mr Walsh on the case?

Tell you what instead, there's another Irish journo who who preaches the good fight against doping in sport, and who happens to be unimployed at present.

Here's a chance to him to channel all of that ardent and fiery energy into exposing cheating and corruption.

deejay

MrT wrote:

Any chance of getting Mr Walsh on the case?

Seems they have a tough Lady for that.

danlikesbikes

Richmond Racer wrote:

MrT wrote:

Any chance of getting Mr Walsh on the case?

Tell you what instead, there's another Irish journo who who preaches the good fight against doping in sport, and who happens to be unimployed at present.

Here's a chance to him to channel all of that ardent and fiery energy into exposing cheating and corruption.

Indeed & he has been rather quite over the past day or two, perhaps he could poke a few people with sticks & might even get some support if he were to make enough noise.

DeadCalm

As someone who is keen for the identity of the cheats and in particular Clasicomano Luigi to be revealed I am naturally disappointed with the outcome. However, I also understand the civil liberty implications of allowing the forces of the state to be used in what is tantamount to a civil process and so I do understand the ruling of the Spanish Courts in this instance. Frustrating but probably the right decision.

slim_boy_fat

Andy Murray has his say on twitter.

operacion puerto case is beyond a joke... biggest cover up in sports history? why would court order blood bags to be destroyed? #coverup

danlikesbikes

DeadCalm wrote:

As someone who is keen for the identity of the cheats and in particular Clasicomano Luigi to be revealed I am naturally disappointed with the outcome. However, I also understand the civil liberty implications of allowing the forces of the state to be used in what is tantamount to a civil process and so I do understand the ruling of the Spanish Courts in this instance. Frustrating but probably the right decision.

Frustrating yes, but what civil liberties implications are we talking about? Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them and if they find no one guilty then they would not publish that info, if they find someone guilty then they, one would assume, publish that.

No_Ta_Doctor

Danlikesbikes wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

As someone who is keen for the identity of the cheats and in particular Clasicomano Luigi to be revealed I am naturally disappointed with the outcome. However, I also understand the civil liberty implications of allowing the forces of the state to be used in what is tantamount to a civil process and so I do understand the ruling of the Spanish Courts in this instance. Frustrating but probably the right decision.

Frustrating yes, but what civil liberties implications are we talking about? Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them and if they find no one guilty then they would not publish that info, if they find someone guilty then they, one would assume, publish that.

It's about how the evidence came into possession of the criminal authorities. It was a police raid which confiscated the blood bags and documents. WADA has no authority to perform a raid like that and no right to evidence gained by it.

If the police put you under surveillance, tapped your phone etc. but found you hadn't committed any crime, would it be OK for your employer, for instance, to request the evidence gathered to check if you'd been in breach of contract - pulled a sickie, called the boss a w******* to another colleague? That's the issue, as far as I'm aware. That the records are essentially medical records makes it doubly serious from a privacy standpoint.

danlikesbikes

No tA Doctor wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

As someone who is keen for the identity of the cheats and in particular Clasicomano Luigi to be revealed I am naturally disappointed with the outcome. However, I also understand the civil liberty implications of allowing the forces of the state to be used in what is tantamount to a civil process and so I do understand the ruling of the Spanish Courts in this instance. Frustrating but probably the right decision.

Frustrating yes, but what civil liberties implications are we talking about? Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them and if they find no one guilty then they would not publish that info, if they find someone guilty then they, one would assume, publish that.

It's about how the evidence came into possession of the criminal authorities. It was a police raid which confiscated the blood bags and documents. WADA has no authority to perform a raid like that and no right to evidence gained by it.

If the police put you under surveillance, tapped your phone etc. but found you hadn't committed any crime, would it be OK for your employer, for instance, to request the evidence gathered to check if you'd been in breach of contract - pulled a sickie, called the boss a w******* to another colleague? That's the issue, as far as I'm aware. That the records are essentially medical records makes it doubly serious from a privacy standpoint.

But were are not talking about the police putting me under surveillance and then my employer putting in a request. We are talking about one legal authority who have the bags for an investigation into public health danger (as blood doping was not illegal at the time is my understanding) having a request made by another legal body.

I notice that WADA have already logged an appeal & sure that their lawyers are arguing the point that I made (though to be fair my point was simply what they were making in the first place) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... -bags.html

No_Ta_Doctor

Danlikesbikes wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

As someone who is keen for the identity of the cheats and in particular Clasicomano Luigi to be revealed I am naturally disappointed with the outcome. However, I also understand the civil liberty implications of allowing the forces of the state to be used in what is tantamount to a civil process and so I do understand the ruling of the Spanish Courts in this instance. Frustrating but probably the right decision.

Frustrating yes, but what civil liberties implications are we talking about? Say the blood bags go to WADA who then test them and if they find no one guilty then they would not publish that info, if they find someone guilty then they, one would assume, publish that.

It's about how the evidence came into possession of the criminal authorities. It was a police raid which confiscated the blood bags and documents. WADA has no authority to perform a raid like that and no right to evidence gained by it.

If the police put you under surveillance, tapped your phone etc. but found you hadn't committed any crime, would it be OK for your employer, for instance, to request the evidence gathered to check if you'd been in breach of contract - pulled a sickie, called the boss a w******* to another colleague? That's the issue, as far as I'm aware. That the records are essentially medical records makes it doubly serious from a privacy standpoint.

But were are not talking about the police putting me under surveillance and then my employer putting in a request. We are talking about one legal authority who have the bags for an investigation into public health danger (as blood doping was not illegal at the time is my understanding) having a request made by another legal body.

I notice that WADA have already logged an appeal & sure that their lawyers are arguing the point that I made (though to be fair my point was simply what they were making in the first place) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... -bags.html

It was a laboured simile but there was a point to it.

WADA aren't a "legal" body. They have no remit regarding criminality.

Similarly, USADA weren't given evidence/testimony obtained by the grand jury hearing re Armstrong.

In the eyes of Spanish criminal law, none of the athletes with blood bags stored has committed any crime. They cant be subject to an intervention from Spanish legal authorities for not breaking any laws. That's an important principle.

term1te

There has been some talk regarding the recent race horse doping scandal, of preventing horses trained in countries with more lax doping rules from running in the UK. I believe some countries allow horses to be given some steroids when not racing for veterinary reasons whilst others don’t. Could a case be made to stop athletes from countries with a more “generous” anti-doping position from competing in countries with tighter controls? I know it would be completely unfair on the vast majority of athletes, and it would come up against freedom of trade and employment rules, etc. but it might embarrass some countries into taking a harder line? So leading cyclists, football teams, tennis players, etc. from a country might be prevented from competing as the risk that it would not be a level playing field would be too high.

With the outcome of this trial, and the Japanese politicians recent gaff, the odds of Istanbul getting the 2020 Olympics must have shortened.

overlord2

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Andy Murray has his say on twitter.

operacion puerto case is beyond a joke... biggest cover up in sports history? why would court order blood bags to be destroyed? #coverup

I suspect the ATP want the bags gone as well, really don't think they want to have to deal with a doped Nadal.

danlikesbikes

No tA Doctor wrote:

It was a laboured simile but there was a point to it.

WADA aren't a "legal" body. They have no remit regarding criminality.

Similarly, USADA weren't given evidence/testimony obtained by the grand jury hearing re Armstrong.

In the eyes of Spanish criminal law, none of the athletes with blood bags stored has committed any crime. They cant be subject to an intervention from Spanish legal authorities for not breaking any laws. That's an important principle.

Think you might find that WADA are a legal body, though many countries struggle to adopt the WADA code into law as they were not created by their own Government body. Hence the introduction of a legal legislation known as the Copenhagen Declaration & The International Convention against Doping in Sport*

* Understand that its slightly more complicated than that though!

Pross

Surely time for the IOC to act on countries like Spain who appear to protect dopers? Start banning them from Olympic competition. They should start by kicking out the Spanish application for the 2020 games out right now rather than even spending money considering it. i feel sorry for clean Spanish sportspeople as this cover up leaves them all getting tainted with suspicion.

iainf72

Pross wrote:

Surely time for the IOC to act on countries like Spain who appear to protect dopers? Start banning them from Olympic competition. They should start by kicking out the Spanish application for the 2020 games out right now rather than even spending money considering it. i feel sorry for clean Spanish sportspeople as this cover up leaves them all getting tainted with suspicion.

So basically you want the Spanish legal system to break the law?

Pross

No, I want the IOC to put pressure on the Spanish (and others who don't appear to) to take anti-doping seriously. From reports the judge in this case constantly stopped Fuentes when he suggested naming 'clients'. Presumably he wouldn't have been breaking any law if he had named them? You can argue it would be a breach of ethics but then the guy almost killed people by giving them dodgy blood so ethics had already gone out of the window.

dave milne

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

sherer

dave milne wrote:

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

In that case could I go somewhere where it is legal to dope. Take all the roids and stuff I can then come back to the UK sign up for Sky and win the Tour ?

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

dave milne

I don't disagree, I want to see these people outed too but if there's no legal requirement to release that information then that's what happens.

Just to override the principle of law because you want something really badly shouldn't happen

No_Ta_Doctor

sherer wrote:

dave milne wrote:

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

In that case could I go somewhere where it is legal to dope. Take all the roids and stuff I can then come back to the UK sign up for Sky and win the Tour ?

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

You could do that, yes. You could also find that anti dopers popped up at your hotel room and nabbed you with roids oozing out of every pore and ensured you got a long ban.

Doping was against the rules long before it was illegal anywhere, and it is still against the rules. It's only actually illegal in a few countries.

DeadCalm

No tA Doctor wrote:

sherer wrote:

dave milne wrote:

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

In that case could I go somewhere where it is legal to dope. Take all the roids and stuff I can then come back to the UK sign up for Sky and win the Tour ?

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

You could do that, yes. You could also find that anti dopers popped up at your hotel room and nabbed you with roids oozing out of every pore and ensured you got a long ban.

Doping was against the rules long before it was illegal anywhere, and it is still against the rules. It's only actually illegal in a few countries.

And the UK isn't one of them. Sports doping in itself is not a crime in the UK.

mike6

DeadCalm wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

sherer wrote:

dave milne wrote:

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

In that case could I go somewhere where it is legal to dope. Take all the roids and stuff I can then come back to the UK sign up for Sky and win the Tour ?

All these people are guilty of cheating, that is wrong and they deserve to be exposed for it

You could do that, yes. You could also find that anti dopers popped up at your hotel room and nabbed you with roids oozing out of every pore and ensured you got a long ban.

Doping was against the rules long before it was illegal anywhere, and it is still against the rules. It's only actually illegal in a few countries.

And the UK isn't one of them. Sports doping in itself is not a crime in the UK.

True, but its about time some hot shot lawyer started arguing that doping, in pro sport, is fraud. Fraud is a crime in the UK and in Spain I would presume.

DeadCalm

mike6 wrote:

True, but its about time some hot shot lawyer started arguing that doping, in pro sport, is fraud. Fraud is a crime in the UK and in Spain I would presume.

Hot shot lawyers don't tend to work for the CPS*. And generally the CPS don't tend to initiate prosecutions the police do. The UK police are only interested in solving crimes with statistics they are measured against, they're certainly not going to invest resources in adding new crimes to the statistics. The sad reality is that the Puerto investigation wouldn't have happened in the UK because nobody would have bothered.

*Apologies to any lawyer reading this who does work for the CPS, no doubt you are a fine and upstanding lawyer.

Ramirez-Auron

dave milne wrote:

as unpalatable as this is from a sporting perspective the judge has to uphold the law. And if there are no legal grounds for releasing that information then that's what he has to do.

Also Spain have tightened up their laws considerably since then so I think it's fair to say things are changing.

The decision of the judge to let the evidences destroy, in my opinion, is a disaster for the fairplay in sports.
Meanwhile it was reported, that the WADA maybe want to appeal against this sentence.
There is maybe one point, that could help the WADA. As member of the EU, Spain has to implement decisions of the European Court of Justice (EuGH). So, if the WADA will be able to bring this case to the EuGH, an essential point could be the fact, that in other states of the EU in 2006 Doping was illegal and for those states an identifying of the athletes will be notable. (Remember the case of Valverde, who was banned through the italian agency, after identifying him with one of the Fuentes blood bags.)

danlikesbikes

Just thought I would add this link to a BBC report says pretty much what all others have, but does add in the potential issues for Spain & the IOC and gives some background history on the Barca Olympics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/22361185

frenchfighter

(AFP) – The International Olympic Committee on Wednesday deplored a ruling by a Spanish court that bags of blood seized in a doping case be destroyed, preventing further probes into what has been described as the world’s biggest doping network.

Over 200 bags of blood were seized from Eufemiano Fuentes, a sports doctor sentenced on Tuesday to a year in prison for performing blood transfusions on top cyclists, often combined with banned substances.

Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria ordered the bags of blood and plasma to be destroyed once any appeals have been settled in a case known as Operation Puerto.

DeadCalm

Possible criminal charges against the doctors involved with USPS.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/01/spanish-court-investigation-doping-cycling