"Change Cycling Now"

Richmond Racer

Well, just had a look at what the roadcc lot have to say on this - their comments are interesting

http://road.cc/content/news/71354-lemon ... mit-london

oneof1982

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?

Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.

disgruntledgoat

oneof1982 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?

Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.

ddraver

BillyMansell wrote:

ddraver wrote:

BillyMansell wrote:

Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.

We don't need so much of the judgemental attitude from you either thanks, I believe I ve made my points clearly, fairly, here and to festina girl and velocast.

It's interesting that you like to judge others but don't like being judged yourself, but for clarification I was responding to your judgemental comments of people's personalities and not of the people per se. If your defence against people commenting on what you say (and not you as a person) is to accuse them of being judgemental then you'll have real problems in holding any conversation.

Blah blah patronise blah...You brought it up...

Do you wanna go and read the discussion I ve had with them before commenting on it maybe? (@ddraver - see my timeline)

I'm afraid you ll have to tell me what an ex soigneur and a Nobody (her choice) from twitter can bring to the discussion. I can see why Velocast are they as they provide even handed, balanced discussions of Cycling even when they actually feel very strongly one way or the other on the particular issue. If they are the BBC, Festina Girl is the Daily Mail. Worse, she is there ot campaign for transparency from UCI, Teams and others witout even providing her real name. Simply, that's too easy a place for people that something to hide, to hide behind themselves.

Again. you're attacking the person rather than what they bring to the table, and there's a certain irony in attacking people for anonymity on the internet. From my experience people often begin by bringing their own agenda to the table but they often leave or are subsumed by the greater good as long as the organisation has good leadership. [/quote]

Again, please tell me what they ll bring - I genuinely can't think of anything. If you know something please enlighten us

I hope the CCN campaign works, but to be honest I don't see how a fans voice can possibly work, or why it is necessary. I can't think of another sport with such a voice...I can only see it as a stick to beat people with real power to change the sport with.

So what's the alternative? I saw the grooming of the top ranks of continental amateurs back in the early '90s into drug taking which is why I advocate a bottom up approach. If nations and teams pursue clean cycling and the whistleblowing on drug taking to an organisation outside of cycling (e.g. WADA) then it sends a clear message to the top echelons of cycling that it's not acceptable.[/quote]

Finally a good question...

I think the meeting of Team managers, cyclists (shame there are nt more of them involved in this), doctors and members of anti-doping authorities is a good thing. What you say sounds good, but there will always be a conflict of interest between the national/international federations and doping when a particular star creates such a boon for cycling in that particualr country. Somehow, we need to wrest the control of doping from their hands, but I think this will require significant input from WADA as currently this is not legal under the code...

ddraver

Well crap that did nt work....

oneof1982

disgruntledgoat wrote:

oneof1982 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?

Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.

I take it that I don't have to explain the difference between engaging in open public debate and posting on an internet chat room. Also I don't think I've misunderstood your metaphor - but please feel free to correct me.

IMHO you are one of these on this site who makes fairly well informed and most often than not, interesting comment. By doing this you are influencing the sport and those who follow it. You are taking a view that the CCN initiative is a waste of time (again correct me if I've misunderstood).

My positiion is that in addition to cycling fans sounding off on a chat room about the need for change they could do worse than support such an iniative, and positively engage.

But you are free to see yourself as having no influence.

Richmond Racer

WELL!!!

The Independent Commission to look into the Armstrong business, has been named by the UCI:

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDe ... LangId%3D1

Sir Philip Otton - former Court of Appeal judge
Malcolm Holmes, QC
Tanni Grey-Thompson


Have to say, after all of 30 seconds thinking about this...this is more promising...

Off to start a new thread...

disgruntledgoat

oneof1982 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

oneof1982 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?

Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.

I take it that I don't have to explain the difference between engaging in open public debate and posting on an internet chat room. Also I don't think I've misunderstood your metaphor - but please feel free to correct me.

IMHO you are one of these on this site who makes fairly well informed and most often than not, interesting comment. By doing this you are influencing the sport and those who follow it. You are taking a view that the CCN initiative is a waste of time (again correct me if I've misunderstood).

My positiion is that in addition to cycling fans sounding off on a chat room about the need for change they could do worse than support such an iniative, and positively engage.

But you are free to see yourself as having no influence.

That's very kind of you to say so! I honestly have no desire to influence anyone, I simply don't have many "real" friends to talk cycling with, which is why I post on here.

I'm not strictly of the opinion that CCN will be a waste of time. I am, however, suspicious of political organisations that set themselves up outside of the traditional methods of influence to attempt to change the way things work (and not just in cycling). Particularly when the make up of them seems to include people who clearly revel in attention without any accountability. However, I'll keep an open mind until I see what they produce.

As to positively engaging, I do try to through organising events, contributing to various grassroots initiatives and coaching the yoof.

Richmond Racer

And bloody hooray for that, DG. Rather more useful in the great scheme of things that just riding badly and waffling about cycling - which is what I do...

oneof1982

You can be quite interesting as well......

cc68

I agree that the CCN set up is far from ideal - but surely anything is better than nothing?
There are people attending this summit (I agree a bit pompous to call it that!) who have an inside knowledge of Pro cycling that few are privileged to share. I applaud their efforts - let's see what comes out of their meeting, or we could just leave the status quo - after all that's worked so well in the past as we've lurched from one crisis to another!!
I agree that change at a grassroots level is needed, but surely support from the top is equally important - there's no point a young pro taking a stand against doping if the top pros and DS in the team aren't going to support them - that just means that we will continue to lose promising clean talent from the sport, as has happened in the past.

BillyMansell

ddraver wrote:

Well crap that did nt work....

Don't worry ddraver. I get your intent but I've sent it to Bletchley Park for decryption just to be sure. To use a much abused phrase, we're all in this together and often the first steps aren't necessarily the right ones but they are a start.

Some first steps I would suggest are;

I advocate starting by talking with the pros and continental amateurs as that's where drug taking is pervasive and may be imposed upon by those wanting to come up the ranks.

Any cyclist's testimony to be anonymised and any sanctions against a cyclist to to be questioned against any testimony given. (a tricky one)

In terms of a Terms of Reference and Memorandum of Understanding for any such meetings, I would ask teams, national and international bodies involved in meetings to declare any vested interests they may have in not wanting cycling to be clean of drugs.

Neil McC

It all seems very english speaking centric to me. Doesn't seem to be much input from Belgium/France/Italy/Spain etc.

Neil McC

Also seems to be a poor reaction to people asking questions of the Cycling Fans Voice lot on twitter. They should expect people to question and scrutinise these things, after all that is what they do to the UCI. You can't expect people to just accept something they are given just for the sake of it. If it stands up to the scrutiny then fair enough, if you're scared of the questions, then maybe it's because you don't have the appropriate answers?

Neil McC

Should add that in theory it seems like a good 'idea' to me. In practice it doesn't appear to have been handled very well. To just appear and say we're doing this doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. I also profess to not having all the answers myself, these are purely observations of what is going on.

RichN95.

Another problem with this so called summit is the lack of dissenting opinions. They are from the 'UCI is corrupt to the core' end of the spectrum. Where is someone like Anne Gripper, who has does more for anti-doping that any of there people, but is supportive of McQuaid. Surely she'd be more relevant than a Brighton housewife or Armstrong's former drug mule.

This isn't a summit, it's a rally for people still stuck in 2005 because Armstrong hasn't cried on Oprah for them

ddraver

Neil McC wrote:

It all seems very english speaking centric to me. Doesn't seem to be much input from Belgium/France/Italy/Spain etc.

Very very good point!

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

Another problem with this so called summit is the lack of dissenting opinions. They are from the 'UCI is corrupt to the core' end of the spectrum. Where is someone like Anne Gripper, who has does more for anti-doping that any of there people, but is supportive of McQuaid. Surely she'd be more relevant than a Brighton housewife or Armstrong's former drug mule.

This isn't a summit, it's a rally for people still stuck in 2005 because Armstrong hasn't cried on Oprah for them

Rich for president

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Another problem with this so called summit is the lack of dissenting opinions. They are from the 'UCI is corrupt to the core' end of the spectrum. Where is someone like Anne Gripper, who has does more for anti-doping that any of there people, but is supportive of McQuaid. Surely she'd be more relevant than a Brighton housewife or Armstrong's former drug mule.

This isn't a summit, it's a rally for people still stuck in 2005 because Armstrong hasn't cried on Oprah for them

Rich for president

I'm no leader - I'm a consigliari, not a godfather. But I fully endorse your candidacy for the Cycling Fan Voice nonsense if they ever make it to an election.

Nick Fitt

ddraver wrote:

Neil McC wrote:

It all seems very english speaking centric to me. Doesn't seem to be much input from Belgium/France/Italy/Spain etc.

Very very good point!

Once they have all decided that they are correct, what can they do?

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

I'm no leader - I'm a consigliari, not a godfather. But I fully endorse your candidacy for the Cycling Fan Voice nonsense if they ever make it to an election.

I'd love to run, but I'm a grown up who thinks pressure groups are jokes.

It's also interesting how one of the "fan" representatives has a fiscal interest in cycling, eh?

dave_1

Gianni's presence should raise a few eyebrows. I do
wonder if he had a healthscare as the trajectory of his GC career
makes no sense to me. I fear it will be a talking shop this weekend but
hope I am wrong

disgruntledgoat

Has cycling changed yet?

No_Ta_Doctor

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Has cycling changed yet?

It can't decide what to wear. Wants to know if its bum looks big.

inkyfingers

I'm very out of touch, this had passed me by. Impressive list of attendees though, though it all just sounds a bit like preaching to the choir.

I could almost take it seriously until I saw the website with Festinagirl as Che Guevara, come on, this isn't student politics. You're a mother from Brighton who happens to like cycling and twitter, I like sex but you won't see me trying to re-write the Karma Sutra.

iainf72

inkyfingers wrote:

I'm very out of touch, this had passed me by. Impressive list of attendees though, though it all just sounds a bit like preaching to the choir.

I could almost take it seriously until I saw the website with Festinagirl as Che Guevara, come on, this isn't student politics. You're a mother from Brighton who happens to like cycling and twitter, I like sex but you won't see me trying to re-write the Karma Sutra.

She's actually outed her real identity (some of us who could drive google figured it out a while ago) so perhaps people wondering how you could take an anonymous person seriously had an impact.

Richmond Racer

Nothing's changed. I was still creeping on my ride this morning. I'm totally disillusioned.

ddraver

Dutchies taking it seriously! Good Questions too...

http://nos.nl/video/446876-fuller-eist- ... n-uci.html (Half Dutch/Half English)

Richmond Racer

ddraver wrote:

Dutchies taking it seriously! Good Questions too...

http://nos.nl/video/446876-fuller-eist- ... n-uci.html (Half Dutch/Half English)

Dunno why but video keeps on freezing when I try to play it. Wot's the gist?

Have to say that Jamie Fuller looks like he could do with a few weeks on the bike. Harsh?

ddraver

Maybe it's area restricted....

Significant points are that riders and sponsors were asked to join in but none of them (according to Fuller) felt that they were able to contribute as they re "scared on the UCI"

Ashendon was asked if they felt that they should wait until the UCI commission had finished, and said that they had zero faith in it.

None of the others were interviewed or barely mentioned (except Vaughters)