Drugs in other sports and the media.
Comments
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coriordan wrote:A win?
How does a fan get cheated out of a win? He gains or loses nothing because someone cheated? He most likely doesn't play said game. I never felt or thought that Lance somehow cheated me out of 7 TDF wins. I'm a fairly avid cyclist and a USA Cycling official but I never cared that he cheated. That's his issue, not mine. Besides, I think everyone(you, me, us, them) has cheated in their lives to gain an advantage.0 -
Oh lordy..."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
C'mon, besides simply "oh lordy" can you explain to me why YOU feel cheated when someone dopes?disgruntledgoat wrote:Oh lordy...0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The more interesting question is the tolerance of diving vs doping....
Tolerance? I don't think there's a lot of tolerance for diving. Fans are regularly enraged by it.
But even if it were tolerated, you could argue that manipulating the referee is a basic part of the sport, and being good at diving is a skill.
Ah most fans have screamed at a player for not playing for the foul and going down easily.
Plenty of fans saw Suarez and that handball and had some shameful admiration for Uraguay, since after all, they made it through and SA didn't.
But I suspect those fans would take more issue with going all Armstrong....0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The more interesting question is the tolerance of diving vs doping....
Tolerance? I don't think there's a lot of tolerance for diving. Fans are regularly enraged by it.
But even if it were tolerated, you could argue that manipulating the referee is a basic part of the sport, and being good at diving is a skill.
Ah most fans have screamed at a player for not playing for the foul and going down easily.
Plenty of fans saw Suarez and that handball and had some shameful admiration for Uraguay, since after all, they made it through and SA didn't.
But I suspect those fans would take more issue with going all Armstrong....
Did Suarez cheat or break the rules?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:
Did Suarez cheat or break the rules?
Both.
Felix Sturm done. Always think doping in boxing is the worst, given what the end result could be.0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The more interesting question is the tolerance of diving vs doping....
Tolerance? I don't think there's a lot of tolerance for diving. Fans are regularly enraged by it.
But even if it were tolerated, you could argue that manipulating the referee is a basic part of the sport, and being good at diving is a skill.
Ah most fans have screamed at a player for not playing for the foul and going down easily.
Plenty of fans saw Suarez and that handball and had some shameful admiration for Uraguay, since after all, they made it through and SA didn't.
But I suspect those fans would take more issue with going all Armstrong....
Did Suarez cheat or break the rules?
Depends how you look at it. The ball was heading into their net in the dying minutes of extra time so he handled it on the line. He took the red card, and was banned for a match.
He figured it was worth the punishment, and broadly speaking, it was. The game went to penalties and Ghana lost as a result.
Check out this fifa video of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CcPELUFKKU0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The more interesting question is the tolerance of diving vs doping....
Tolerance? I don't think there's a lot of tolerance for diving. Fans are regularly enraged by it.
But even if it were tolerated, you could argue that manipulating the referee is a basic part of the sport, and being good at diving is a skill.
Ah most fans have screamed at a player for not playing for the foul and going down easily.
Plenty of fans saw Suarez and that handball and had some shameful admiration for Uraguay, since after all, they made it through and SA didn't.
But I suspect those fans would take more issue with going all Armstrong....
Did Suarez cheat or break the rules?
Depends how you look at it. The ball was heading into their net in the dying minutes of extra time so he handled it on the line. He took the red card, and was banned for a match.
He figured it was worth the punishment, and broadly speaking, it was. The game went to penalties and Ghana lost as a result.
Check out this fifa video of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CcPELUFKKU
To me it was breaking the rules, a professional foul, akin to Courtois for Chelsea today.
But not cheating.
There was a degree of outrage at the time IIRC but that was mainly due to a desire to see the African team progress.
Now, Henry for France, there's a cheater... :evil:“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Football DD Football. But that aside couldn't you argue that the additional cash makes doping less necessary, you can be fairly ordinary footballer and make a fantastic living compared to cycling. Take say Emanuel Adebayor, if he dopes it's undoubtedly sedatives or hallucinogens, and the man had made millions. I'm sure there's doping in football, as there is in all sport, people cheat in all walks of life, sport is not going to be different. Because cycling is so endurance based we're given to believe there was an era when just keeping up meant doping, I don't think football is there, individuals may dope, but I'm still not convinced about team doping programs, players that left would spill the beans, unless you believe all the teams have a program which I don't. But then again, maybe I'm delusional.Dolan Driver wrote:The argument that many choose to ignore. Soccer is a far richer sport than cycling, yet riders were prepared to risk their health to maintain a fairly modest wage. Are all soccer players so ethical that they wouldn't take PEDs to maintain their status in a sport that pays millions to many very mediocre players? Soccer players will gladly dive in the penalty box to secure a penalty kick, even if the contact is minimal. They will gladly appeal to the referee to send off a player from the opposing team, regardless of his offence on the field.
Some soccer players have proven themselves to be some of the most spineless and dishonest "sportsmen" on the planet. And yet they would never consider using PEDs? Give me a break. (And I like watching the PL).
DD.0 -
Just seen this which brings much of it together
https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2016 ... o-swallow/0 -
dougzz wrote:
Football DD Football.Dolan Driver wrote:The argument that many choose to ignore. Soccer is a far richer sport than cycling, yet riders were prepared to risk their health to maintain a fairly modest wage. Are all soccer players so ethical that they wouldn't take PEDs to maintain their status in a sport that pays millions to many very mediocre players? Soccer players will gladly dive in the penalty box to secure a penalty kick, even if the contact is minimal. They will gladly appeal to the referee to send off a player from the opposing team, regardless of his offence on the field.
Some soccer players have proven themselves to be some of the most spineless and dishonest "sportsmen" on the planet. And yet they would never consider using PEDs? Give me a break. (And I like watching the PL).
DD.
In this neck of the woods, we have our own code of football (Gaelic Football) so we kinda refer to soccer as soccer. Similar, I suppose, to our American cousins given the football over there means "American Football". You can include the Aussies in that too, I guess. It is a geographical thing. Soccer might not be the cool name to refer to that particular game but everyone knows what is being referred to.
DD.0 -
dougzz wrote:
Football DD Football. But that aside couldn't you argue that the additional cash makes doping less necessary, you can be fairly ordinary footballer and make a fantastic living compared to cycling. Take say Emanuel Adebayor, if he dopes it's undoubtedly sedatives or hallucinogens, and the man had made millions. I'm sure there's doping in football, as there is in all sport, people cheat in all walks of life, sport is not going to be different. Because cycling is so endurance based we're given to believe there was an era when just keeping up meant doping, I don't think football is there, individuals may dope, but I'm still not convinced about team doping programs, players that left would spill the beans, unless you believe all the teams have a program which I don't. But then again, maybe I'm delusional.Dolan Driver wrote:The argument that many choose to ignore. Soccer is a far richer sport than cycling, yet riders were prepared to risk their health to maintain a fairly modest wage. Are all soccer players so ethical that they wouldn't take PEDs to maintain their status in a sport that pays millions to many very mediocre players? Soccer players will gladly dive in the penalty box to secure a penalty kick, even if the contact is minimal. They will gladly appeal to the referee to send off a player from the opposing team, regardless of his offence on the field.
Some soccer players have proven themselves to be some of the most spineless and dishonest "sportsmen" on the planet. And yet they would never consider using PEDs? Give me a break. (And I like watching the PL).
DD.
Why does everyone mention what players earn and think this is in individual thing. We've seen in the past team wide doping and with huge medical back room staff at top clubs I see no reason for that to change0 -
dennisn wrote:
C'mon, besides simply "oh lordy" can you explain to me why YOU feel cheated when someone dopes?disgruntledgoat wrote:Oh lordy...
You don't really get being a fan, do you?
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with even a passing acquaintance with team sports.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:
C'mon, besides simply "oh lordy" can you explain to me why YOU feel cheated when someone dopes?disgruntledgoat wrote:Oh lordy...
You don't really get being a fan, do you?
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with even a passing acquaintance with team sports.
I know plenty of "fans", but I don't understand the why's and wherefores of people who get upset when "their" team lose's, cheats, is unsportsmanlike, gets a bad call from the officials. Why so wrapped up in something you have no control over, don't personally know a single person on the team, have no vested interest in whether they win or lose, and it has zero effect on your life(except for maybe you getting upset).0 -
dennisn wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:
C'mon, besides simply "oh lordy" can you explain to me why YOU feel cheated when someone dopes?disgruntledgoat wrote:Oh lordy...
You don't really get being a fan, do you?
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with even a passing acquaintance with team sports.
I know plenty of "fans", but I don't understand the why's and wherefores of people who get upset when "their" team lose's, cheats, is unsportsmanlike, gets a bad call from the officials. Why so wrapped up in something you have no control over, don't personally know a single person on the team, have no vested interest in whether they win or lose, and it has zero effect on your life(except for maybe you getting upset).
You didn't understand it on the Lance thread either. Maybe time to move on.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?TailWindHome wrote:dennisn wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:
C'mon, besides simply "oh lordy" can you explain to me why YOU feel cheated when someone dopes?disgruntledgoat wrote:Oh lordy...
You don't really get being a fan, do you?
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with even a passing acquaintance with team sports.
I know plenty of "fans", but I don't understand the why's and wherefores of people who get upset when "their" team lose's, cheats, is unsportsmanlike, gets a bad call from the officials. Why so wrapped up in something you have no control over, don't personally know a single person on the team, have no vested interest in whether they win or lose, and it has zero effect on your life(except for maybe you getting upset).
You didn't understand it on the Lance thread either. Maybe time to move on.0 -
Oh great Dennis, forgive us! Clearly you are some sort of superior human specimen living far above the daily trivialities that occupy the rest of us proles, your vast intellect free to tackle the greatest problems of the universe! Please, I beg you, stop this futile quest to lower yourself to the level of we ordinary people who have yet to realise the sheer folly of caring about sports teams! :shock: I can only imagine how pointless and infantile such behaviour must seem to someone who has developed their mind to the awesome extent you evidently have, but I assure you it does make sense within the bounds of our tiny limited monkey brains.dennisn wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?
:roll:
@TWH: can you add a "Dennis" option to your "most boring" poll?0 -
Joelsim wrote:Just seen this which brings much of it together
https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2016 ... o-swallow/
Thanks for that. Interesting article, I've always been annoyed Hungary didn't win the WC in 54 and knew they were cheated.
As I've said history has shown there has been team wide doping since at least the end of WWII, why would the teams stop doing that when it has brought so much success in the past and barely been looked at by FIFA, UEFA etc. Why would Spain want to look into it and then lose a World Cup and European Championship win ?
With the same cycling doctors working for football teams it doesn't take much to add one and one together0 -
I think largely you're trolling, but on the off chance you're serious. It's an emotional thing, faith maybe. This is a little like asking someone to expalin religion or why they like one girl rather than another. I've regularly attended football games in London for over 40 years, longer than any of the very transient players or the current owners. I've invested tens of thousands of pounds in doing so, a great deal of time, and more emotional stress and pain than I care to consider too closely. So I think I'm entitled to say we and my.dennisn wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?0 -
You might be right about the trolling. I've been very bored of late (broken leg). Anyway you do bring up interesting points. I've just never felt that way about teams.dougzz wrote:
I think largely you're trolling, but on the off chance you're serious. It's an emotional thing, faith maybe. This is a little like asking someone to expalin religion or why they like one girl rather than another. I've regularly attended football games in London for over 40 years, longer than any of the very transient players or the current owners. I've invested tens of thousands of pounds in doing so, a great deal of time, and more emotional stress and pain than I care to consider too closely. So I think I'm entitled to say we and my.dennisn wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?0 -
adr82 wrote:
Oh great Dennis, forgive us! Clearly you are some sort of superior human specimen living far above the daily trivialities that occupy the rest of us proles, your vast intellect free to tackle the greatest problems of the universe! Please, I beg you, stop this futile quest to lower yourself to the level of we ordinary people who have yet to realise the sheer folly of caring about sports teams! :shock: I can only imagine how pointless and infantile such behaviour must seem to someone who has developed their mind to the awesome extent you evidently have, but I assure you it does make sense within the bounds of our tiny limited monkey brains.dennisn wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?
:roll:
@TWH: can you add a "Dennis" option to your "most boring" poll?
This is a delightfully constructed post.Giant Trance X 2010
Specialized Tricross Sport
My Dad's old racer
Trek Marlin 29er 20120 -
dennisn wrote:
You might be right about the trolling. I've been very bored of late (broken leg). Anyway you do bring up interesting points. I've just never felt that way about teams.dougzz wrote:
I think largely you're trolling, but on the off chance you're serious. It's an emotional thing, faith maybe. This is a little like asking someone to expalin religion or why they like one girl rather than another. I've regularly attended football games in London for over 40 years, longer than any of the very transient players or the current owners. I've invested tens of thousands of pounds in doing so, a great deal of time, and more emotional stress and pain than I care to consider too closely. So I think I'm entitled to say we and my.dennisn wrote:Maybe it's time for someone to explain to me how someone can be so wrapped up in worshiping sports. Why do people proclaim "we won" when "their" team wins, yet the only thing they did was get half drunk while they watched it on the tube?
And therein lies the danger of extrapolating from oneself to the rest of mankind in general.
For every fan of my team (Arsenal) I've met, there's a different story. Maybe their dad took them when they were small, maybe they grew up nearby, maybe they saw a cup final in their formative years, maybe they just liked the way they played, or a particular player. What we have in common is that our feelings for our teams aren't rational - it's 22 blokes on a field trying to kick a pigs bladder through some sticks, FFS. (the same deconstruction can be applied to any sport).
In fact, I have a friend who describes watching football as absolute purgatory, he hates it. Unless one of the teams is Arsenal.
For me, my team is my team because that's where I grew up, close enough to the ground for it to be an everyday part of the fabric. A source of local pride and identity, something I had in common with just about everyone else in the area. That was even more important when I left to go to university, and something that had been pretty much omnipresent suddenly wasn't there any more. This is why when American sports franchises move from one city or state to another we simply can't believe or understand it here (pretty much the only team that have moved a significant distance are "The MK Dons" who moved from Wimbledon to Milton Keynes, about 80 miles. That prompted the formation of a new Wimbledon team, who believe themselves to be the true inheritors of the Wimbledon honours of past.
Oh, and my favourite player is one who I'm too young to have seen play, but who was famous for being a local hero, who skipped school to watch the reserves play. He still goes to all matches, and will happily say hello to any fans he bumps into when he's doing his shopping, as he still lives locally.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
I often take the p1ss out of friends who get way too involved in football and football matches, but it seems pretty obvious that if you invest that much time and effort into something and "your" team loses out to another team who cheated then you're going to be a little peeved.
Also most sports fans like to see their sportsing decided fairly according to the rules of that sport.0 -
I doubt you'll read a more pompous statement today, but what is sport if not displaced tribalism and a chance to witness the transcendence of the mundane (obviously one out of two ain't bad if you're an Arsenal fan)... Mmm ?
As bobstuff - and others - have said, the idea that what you're watching might be as unreal as a CGI special effect in a movie - or a result of backstage subterfuge - is a potential bursting of a bubble that forces intelligent adults to question why they're investing time, money and passion on their sporting idols - and that's going to crush the spirits of all but the already crushed.
That's why people get angry, dennis.0 -
OCD's right.
And the way you set that up, I'm disappointed it wasn't more pompous.
Sport's a lovely place where you can let yourself irrationally get wrapped up and experience very intense feelings with little or no consequence.
I was SCREAMING at the TV when Boonen was getting boxed in and missed the sprint against Hayman in Roubaix. My heart was racing, the nerves I had! The sweating, the hope, the tension. It was all there.
I let of a loud "NOOOO" and threw a few cushions across the room to the other sofa. The Mrs banged the sofa in frustration.
30 mins later we were getting on with out every day lives as if nothing had happened. That's what so good. How else can you feel something so powerful yet so inconsequential in your own life?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:
And the way you set that up, I'm disappointed it wasn't more pompous.
Me too, I had high hopes but they were let down. I think a football analogy would be appropriate but I don't know enough about football teams...0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:OCD's right.
And the way you set that up, I'm disappointed it wasn't more pompous.
Sport's a lovely place where you can let yourself irrationally get wrapped up and experience very intense feelings with little or no consequence.
I was SCREAMING at the TV when Boonen was getting boxed in and missed the sprint against Hayman in Roubaix. My heart was racing, the nerves I had! The sweating, the hope, the tension. It was all there.
I let of a loud "NOOOO" and threw a few cushions across the room to the other sofa. The Mrs banged the sofa in frustration.
30 mins later we were getting on with out every day lives as if nothing had happened. That's what so good. How else can you feel something so powerful yet so inconsequential in your own life?
That
Plus dennis, sport - football in particular - is one of the few things that can be found in every corner of the globe. It is the only think in the world that can truly unite the most esteemed intellectual with the simplest soul or connect a Russian oligarch with more money than a country with an amazonian tribe who have barely seen any part of the western world yet could tell you the Chelsea result last weekend. You may think yourself superior because you think you re above this but actually you are the strange one in this tale.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Actually I'm glad to be considered "the strange one" in all this. I have never wanted to toe the line and be like everyone thinks I should be. I don't have that kind of temperment.ddraver wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:OCD's right.
And the way you set that up, I'm disappointed it wasn't more pompous.
Sport's a lovely place where you can let yourself irrationally get wrapped up and experience very intense feelings with little or no consequence.
I was SCREAMING at the TV when Boonen was getting boxed in and missed the sprint against Hayman in Roubaix. My heart was racing, the nerves I had! The sweating, the hope, the tension. It was all there.
I let of a loud "NOOOO" and threw a few cushions across the room to the other sofa. The Mrs banged the sofa in frustration.
30 mins later we were getting on with out every day lives as if nothing had happened. That's what so good. How else can you feel something so powerful yet so inconsequential in your own life?
That
Plus dennis, sport - football in particular - is one of the few things that can be found in every corner of the globe. It is the only think in the world that can truly unite the most esteemed intellectual with the simplest soul or connect a Russian oligarch with more money than a country with an amazonian tribe who have barely seen any part of the western world yet could tell you the Chelsea result last weekend. You may think yourself superior because you think you re above this but actually you are the strange one in this tale.0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:I doubt you'll read a more pompous statement today, but what is sport if not displaced tribalism and a chance to witness the transcendence of the mundane (obviously one out of two ain't bad if you're an Arsenal fan)... Mmm ?
As bobstuff - and others - have said, the idea that what you're watching might be as unreal as a CGI special effect in a movie - or a result of backstage subterfuge - is a potential bursting of a bubble that forces intelligent adults to question why they're investing time, money and passion on their sporting idols - and that's going to crush the spirits of all but the already crushed.
That's why people get angry, dennis.
To be honest, it's less displaced tribalism these days and more of a suicide cult. Or possibly a cargo cult - we make all the markings on the grass and erect the strange wooden poles, in the hopes that one day the Gods will again descend to bestow us with wonder.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
