Drugs in other sports and the media.

markwb79

redvision wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

redvision wrote:

I do not (and have never said) football is perfect and has no issues. Football has numerous issues. Diving on the pitch, harassing the referee, racism, feigning injury, to mention a few. BUT i think there is more likelihood of match fixing or betting scams than there is doping, because it would be far more effective than one person doping.

You keep mentioned match fixing. I would think to be good at match fixing you would need more than 1 player.
Yes a goal keeper could let a goal in to fix a match. But then you would need to rely on your striker not scoring, so they would need to be in on it as well.
For the goal keeper to let a goal in, their striker would first need to be shooting at the goal, so you could need a defender to 'let' the striker have a shot.

If footballers didnt change matches on their own, why did Madrid pay €100m for Bale when they could have bought Walcott for €10m?

Because Bale is more consistent, has a better eye for goal and can produce moments of individual brilliance.
But the team have to have kept them in the match for his moment of brilliance, his wonder goal, to bring the victory.

Maybe because Bale can run longer and faster that he saves more energy and can stay more focused on 'his eye for goal'
If you run 50meters at 100% and it takes 10seconds. Then have to decide to shoot at the goal.
If you doped and ran those 50meters in 10 seconds, but only ran at 70%, your heart rate would be lower and you would think clearer about where in the goal you place the ball.
Thats what doping gives to a football in my opinion.

*ps, Not saying anything against Bale, just using him as an example of the differences in player values.

blazing_saddles

FFS!
Jan 2016.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... faces.html

If implicated, football clearly carries the potential for a major scandal. Jesus Manzano, the former cyclist whose 2004 interview with the Spanish newspaper AS blew the whistle on Fuentes, said he often saw “well-known” footballers waiting to see the doctor when he went for his red blood cell top-ups, while plenty of clubs are alleged to have worked with him. In 2013, Fuentes even ­issued, via his lawyers, a series of questions he might be prepared to answer. One of the questions was: “How I prepared a team to play in the Champions League”.

2013:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/j ... rs-fuentes

They included two well-known players at Spanish clubs and a Spaniard who had played for the national team – who are the reigning World Cup and European champions.

And Finally:-
http://www.thinkfootball.co.uk/is-dopin ... er-sports/

Almost the opening line:-

Coaches, players and fans take pride in “their” sport being the cleanest, but the evidence points to the contrary.

joelsim

So, we've ascertained that the world's thickest millionaires don't dope have we? Because it offers no benefit to the team.

Right.

redvision appears to be football's Seb Coe. Nothing to see here.

Don't be so damn naive.

adr82

redvision wrote:

I do not (and have never said) football is perfect and has no issues. Football has numerous issues. Diving on the pitch, harassing the referee, racism, feigning injury, to mention a few. BUT i think there is more likelihood of match fixing or betting scams than there is doping, because it would be far more effective than one person doping.

Not sure what your definition of "effective" is here, but why would you think one person doping would have no impact? If, as you claim, all footballers are far too ethical to ever dope, then a hypothetical lone doper would gain a substantial advantage over the others. That could easily translate to winning a tight game.

By the way, I love how you admit footballers are involved in all sorts of dodgy shenanigans, but not doping, no sir, that's just not on :roll:

redvision wrote:

There do need to be more drug tests in football, but i do not believe the number of positive tests would rise significantly.
That is my belief. Again until i see otherwise i will maintain this belief.

OK, so all you have is "belief", no actual reasons? Got it. Speculation based on evidence = bad, blind faith = just fine. Also why the need for more drug testing? I thought no footballers ever dope :?:

redvision wrote:

One more thing, again i come back to team Sky, if you are all so certain that football players dope, then you must also assume team Sky dope?? I mean they look for the marginal gains, their riders perform like no others, the history of the sport is rife with doping. So why are they or other cycling teams now clean?? :roll:

If Team Sky hadn't come into existence after cycling had begun to confront its endemic doping issues with explicit goal of being a clean team, and if cyclists were drug tested in the same manner as footballers, you might just have a point. Sadly that's not true. Cycling was forced to confront and acknowledge its doping problem and has made clear efforts to do so, rather than sweep everything under the rug and pretend things are squeaky clean. Testing is extensive and frequent. Nobody is claiming cycling is entirely clean (e.g. Astana), and nobody can say for sure if Sky are clean, but they've been an absolutely huge juicy inviting target for a doping exposé for years now and yet no credible evidence has ever surfaced. No disgruntled ex-Sky employees have ever blown the whistle on the team-wide doping program. Either Sky are somehow able to control everything their ex-employees say or do, or there's nothing there to expose. I know what I think is most probable based on that evidence.

Wheelspinner

Different forms of football, but anyone thinking entire teams don't dope should google "Essendon AFL drugs" or "Cronulla Sharks" drugs and see what happened. Two recent examples in Australia, and in relative terms here the money involved is peanuts

DeVlaeminck

Plenty of evidence of doping in football - see Arsene Wenger's comments of a few years ago about players they've signed or the tale of a popular French pop star accidentally blowing the cover of the most famous French footballer other than Platini. Going further back players have spoken openly about being given stimulants by team doctors.

dolan_driver

The very first link posted in the very first post of this now lengthy thread was this;

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/ ... ping-pills

Nuff said, Gov!

DD.

ManOfKent

I'm probably as big a fan of football as any poster here, including Redvision, and can't imagine that no top players are doping. Cycling, swimming, American football, baseball, ice hockey, athletics, Aussie rules, rugby league, rugby union, tennis have all had doping cases... why should football be any different? The entire sport is rotten, from Sunday league referees suffering abuse from players, through diving, dodgy owners, bungs, match fixing and the award of the World Cup to Qatar, to members of FIFA's ethics committee coming under investigation.

Incidentally, another top Russian athlete is in trouble...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/35972794
and Kenya is still in trouble with WADA...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/35964938

Bo Duke

Liverpool players clearly don't dope... they're cr@p.

redvision

I have never once said that footballers do not dope. I am sure a few do. What I have said is that I don't think doping is as widespread in the sport as you all seem to think.

Just another point of interest, the English and Welsh FA have kindly replied to a question I asked and have confirmed the random drug tests are conducted by many different bodies - including the league fa's, the national teams and club teams etc.

If doping was as widespread in football as you claim there would have been multiple failed tests and bans on a regular basis... Unless the testing drs were also in on what would be a huge conspiracy.

I love most sports but especially cycling and football.
I am not naive, I will accept a doping problem when I see clear evidence. Until then I will continue to believe that football does not have a widespread doping problem... Just as I believe team sky are clean.

*edit, when I say doping I mean banned performance enhancing substances.

sherer

I'm sure others here have more info but IIRC football doesn't even do a test for EPO. I drug test doesn't mean it is checked for every PED out there. Football doesn't believe it has a problem so doesn't even bother looking.. It's mainly recreational drugs that are looked for

joelsim

redvision wrote:

If doping was as widespread in football as you claim there would have been multiple failed tests and bans on a regular basis... Unless the testing drs were also in on what would be a huge conspiracy.

No there wouldn't.

Doping testing in football is pretty much useless as it currently stands. To get caught you would need to be a fool.

Cyclists who dope still get through all the tests and the ABP quite happily. In football there is far less testing, absolutely no indication/willingness to admit from the governing bodies that there is an issue, and quite frankly unless they really abuse the doses or are extremely unlucky they will never have a problem.

Passing a doping test once a year on a matchday is not evidence of being clean.

joelsim

sherer wrote:

I'm sure others here have more info but IIRC football doesn't even do a test for EPO. I drug test doesn't mean it is checked for every PED out there. Football doesn't believe it has a problem so doesn't even bother looking.. It's mainly recreational drugs that are looked for

Correct Sherer. On the basis of having blood taken and the lab testing for all prohibited substances...it doesn't happen as the cost goes up and up.

That isn't a football specific comment either, you only have to look at TdF testing to see the pointlessness of much of it.

Do you believe in god too?

RoadPainter

redvision wrote:

Just another point of interest, the English and Welsh FA have kindly replied to a question I asked and have confirmed the random drug tests are conducted by many different bodies - including the league fa's, the national teams and club teams etc.

If doping was as widespread in football as you claim there would have been multiple failed tests and bans on a regular basis... Unless the testing drs were also in on what would be a huge conspiracy.

This is a ridiculous argument! I know that the random, out of competition tests in football used to run like this:
Tester turns up unannounced at club, asks for list of players training that day
Picks 3 at random
Tests them

You don't have to be a genius to see the problem there!

Richmond Racer 2

it would appear that redvision is a sock puppet for the Head of the Dutch NADO

"We don't have a whereabouts system in football, because football isnt't known as a sport sensitive to doping"


http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/38501/Doping/art ... odig.dhtml

ddraver

Friebos' reply to that was pretty accurate I think. People are happy with the status quo as it is and don't want to risk changing it.

"here you are Christiano, have your supersecret magic recovery vitamins"

dinyull

What is the "glow" time for EPO?

Having read the Secret Footballer, I remember him touching on this subject. Something along the lines of, you have to let the FA (or whoever conduct the random tests) where you are for a 3 hour period every day. So, outside of this window you are free to do as you please (go shopping etc) without worrying that testers are going show up at your front door.

I'm not pointing fingers, but in a sport with that amount of financial reward for individual performance I can't help but think that not pushing the envelope would be an opportunity missed for a lot of players. Especially in the Premier League where brute strength, pace and physicality is often preferred over skill.

dinyull

He (the secret footballer) also said that a manager he used to work for would warn the players that the random testers were in today, so if anyone needed to miss the test disappear. TSF said a few would often vanish, but that as he understood it was for recreational drugs not performance.

Dorset_Boy

A certain Man Utd defender chose to stay shopping rather than return to his club for a test.
Take EPO at 10 pm and it won't be glowing at training the next day.

Redvision - keep on burying your head in the sand - it's quite funny to the rest of us!

smithy21

Redivision 1 The Rest of the Forum 0

You all can't resist a good chomp can you.

joelsim

smithy21 wrote:

Redivision 1 The Rest of the Forum 0

You all can't resist a good chomp can you.

I think you'll find that's Luis Suarez.

The_Boy

Joelsim wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

Redivision 1 The Rest of the Forum 0

You all can't resist a good chomp can you.

I think you'll find that's Luis Suarez.

Luis Suarez has been trolling the forum?

rick_chasey

Yes.

dov2711

No or very little doping in football is as ridiculous a concept as using a DeLorean for time travel. Having spent much of the 90's in Turin the questions posed of Juventus programme of player enhancement were rife.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-drug-scandal-that-blackens-the-name-of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html
Zidanes blood transfusions..
https://edwardcutler.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/footballs-blood-curdling-problem/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209
Fuentes...
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2013/05/02/3947581/the-doping-doctor-eufemiano-fuentes-footballs-unanswered
Let's not forget Maradonna, Caniggia.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-334395/Factfile-Stars-fell-foul-drug-rules.html

As for the process of monitoring and the robustness of the doping checks......as a fan of a Scottish football team this gives me great confidence. 8 tests in 9 months!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35776618

joelsim

There's this today too.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/paris-saint-ger ... ing-claims

(Betancur managed to put on 10kg in 6 months too though)

smithy21

dov2711 wrote:

No or very little doping in football is as ridiculous a concept as using a DeLorean for time travel. Having spent much of the 90's in Turin the questions posed of Juventus programme of player enhancement were rife.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-drug-scandal-that-blackens-the-name-of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html
Zidanes blood transfusions..
https://edwardcutler.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/footballs-blood-curdling-problem/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209
Fuentes...
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2013/05/02/3947581/the-doping-doctor-eufemiano-fuentes-footballs-unanswered
Let's not forget Maradonna, Caniggia.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-334395/Factfile-Stars-fell-foul-drug-rules.html

As for the process of monitoring and the robustness of the doping checks......as a fan of a Scottish football team this gives me great confidence. 8 tests in 9 months!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35776618

As someone who also follows Scottish football the players really should be doping more.

No_Ta_Doctor

smithy21 wrote:

dov2711 wrote:

No or very little doping in football is as ridiculous a concept as using a DeLorean for time travel. Having spent much of the 90's in Turin the questions posed of Juventus programme of player enhancement were rife.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-drug-scandal-that-blackens-the-name-of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html
Zidanes blood transfusions..
https://edwardcutler.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/footballs-blood-curdling-problem/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209
Fuentes...
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2013/05/02/3947581/the-doping-doctor-eufemiano-fuentes-footballs-unanswered
Let's not forget Maradonna, Caniggia.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-334395/Factfile-Stars-fell-foul-drug-rules.html

As for the process of monitoring and the robustness of the doping checks......as a fan of a Scottish football team this gives me great confidence. 8 tests in 9 months!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35776618

As someone who also follows Scottish football the players really should be doping more.

I think we've done this before, but we generally came to the conclusion that the PED of choice in Scottish football was probably skag.

The_Boy

No tA Doctor wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

dov2711 wrote:

No or very little doping in football is as ridiculous a concept as using a DeLorean for time travel. Having spent much of the 90's in Turin the questions posed of Juventus programme of player enhancement were rife.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-drug-scandal-that-blackens-the-name-of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html
Zidanes blood transfusions..
https://edwardcutler.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/footballs-blood-curdling-problem/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209
Fuentes...
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2013/05/02/3947581/the-doping-doctor-eufemiano-fuentes-footballs-unanswered
Let's not forget Maradonna, Caniggia.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-334395/Factfile-Stars-fell-foul-drug-rules.html

As for the process of monitoring and the robustness of the doping checks......as a fan of a Scottish football team this gives me great confidence. 8 tests in 9 months!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35776618

As someone who also follows Scottish football the players really should be doping more.

I think we've done this before, but we generally came to the conclusion that the PED of choice in Scottish football was probably skag.

Deep-fried.

redvision

The_Boy wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

Redivision 1 The Rest of the Forum 0

You all can't resist a good chomp can you.

I think you'll find that's Luis Suarez.

Luis Suarez has been trolling the forum?

Damn it! Busted!

redvision

In response to all the burying head in sand and naive comments, well maybe i am. BUT not one of you has provided any clear evidence that doping in football is widespread today. Its all hearsay and allegations (usually from athletes who have had bans for doping), but where is the hard evidence?

I really couldn't care less about 10, 20 or 50 years ago. We all know that age and what was going on, but as one sport suffered i would hope that others quietly made changes under the radar.

As i keep saying, i believe more tests are needed to ensure the sport is clean (as far as possible). There are at least 3 bodies testing players, and regardless of the comments that these do not know what to look for, well they all adhere to the UKAD policy and the tests, from what i have read, have to follow the set criteria. So in theory, football players are being subjected to the same tests as cyclists and other athletes.

I am sure some footballers do try and get away with doping, but i still believe that widespread doping of banned substances is unlikely. This isn't to say substances which enhance performances that are currently not on the banned list are not being used.

Whether it is naivety or not, i still believe in the innocent until proven guilty theory.