Drugs in other sports and the media.
Comments
-
mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.0 -
Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
There you go again, I have never heard such arrogance. Just because you say "Thats the way it is" does not make it so.0 -
andyp wrote:mike6 wrote:So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
Have you really just used the "British guys don't cheat" line?
Jesus wept.
Er...no. I was told I had to take the history of British distance running into consideration. You name one of the distance greats that have been busted for doping. Jesus wept indeed.
Who rattled your cage anyway? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:0 -
mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
There you go again, I have never heard such arrogance. Just because you say "Thats the way it is" does not make it so.
lol at mike6. Don't be so grumpy fella. We differ on opinion. And to be honest I don't care as it's the same for everyone involved be it the 100m, the 1500m, The Tour, the cross-country skiing...perhaps not too much in the curling (except the Canadian men obviously
)
The only people who lose out are the non-dopers, but given over 80% of cyclists are asthmatic...0 -
RichN95 wrote:
You've just made that figure up, haven't you?Joelsim wrote:but given over 80% of cyclists are asthmatic...
Yep 87% of statistics are made up.
No, I read it on here. Have I the original source? No.
What is important is that the level of natural asthmatics in the world is below 20% and the level of cycling asthmatics was somewhat higher, like 4 times higher than the mean level.
Begs the question what is doping? Having a beer, taking a pill, pretending you are asthmatic, going to a club in Ibiza, smoking a fag, rubbing Vicks on your shirt, injecting yourself with your own blood...0 -
Pross wrote:
Come on smart arse show me what evidence I posted that is wrong ?
And joelsim is correct and from memory [no fu%king google ] at the Atlanta Olympics it was over 50% for cyclists which is a bulls5it amount.
Pro athletes dope. A lot of them. Most of the elite ones and most likely your fave rider does ,,,boo hoo get over it.0 -
-
RichN95 wrote:
If we leave aside the fact that the Atlanta Olympics were 18 years ago, there's a big difference between 'over 50%' and 80%.rayjay wrote:
And joelsim is correct and from memory [no fu%king google ] at the Atlanta Olympics it was over 50% for cyclists which is a bulls5it amount.
Whats your point, Your not stupid Rich, you know very well the benefits to athletes of claiming to have asthma. I do anyway and so does Joelsim and so do all those riders who claim to have asthma.
If you don't, then go and find out. It will enlighten you or maybe it won't and you will continue arguing your point to death in order to try and convince your self that Pro cyclists would not do such a thing and lie0 -
As it happens Salbutamol (common asthma medication) is not strictly banned by WADA i.e. anyone can take it. It is, however, not permitted to return a urine concentration above a specific value - a value that would indicate dosing way above a typical medical regime.
Someone without asthma taking a typical dose is not going to get any performance benefit (and the regulations reflect this). The drug action is, of course, to open up the closed airways of the asthmatic. The airways of a non-sufferer are not going to magically distended in some way allowing them to shovel in extra oxygen... and even if they did the rate limiting step is in the blood transport of oxygen not in the breathing.0 -
Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
There you go again, I have never heard such arrogance. Just because you say "Thats the way it is" does not make it so.
lol at mike6. Don't be so grumpy fella. We differ on opinion. And to be honest I don't care as it's the same for everyone involved be it the 100m, the 1500m, The Tour, the cross-country skiing...perhaps not too much in the curling (except the Canadian men obviously )
The only people who lose out are the non-dopers, but given over 80% of cyclists are asthmatic...
I love a good argument, but using the term "Thats just the way it is" as the basis for your position is not big, clever or indeed has any factual foundation.
If you are going to claim an individual is a cheat you must back it up with facts. But you dont have any.
"lol at mike6" ? I thought there was a minimum age requirement on this forum?0 -
mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
There you go again, I have never heard such arrogance. Just because you say "Thats the way it is" does not make it so.
lol at mike6. Don't be so grumpy fella. We differ on opinion. And to be honest I don't care as it's the same for everyone involved be it the 100m, the 1500m, The Tour, the cross-country skiing...perhaps not too much in the curling (except the Canadian men obviously )
The only people who lose out are the non-dopers, but given over 80% of cyclists are asthmatic...
I love a good argument, but using the term "Thats just the way it is" as the basis for your position is not big, clever or indeed has any factual foundation.
If you are going to claim an individual is a cheat you must back it up with facts. But you dont have any.
"lol at mike6" ? I thought there was a minimum age requirement on this forum?
"Just the way it is"
Have you seen how many Cyclists have been busted in the last few months ? Including ex world champion Ballan . Did you miss that one or did you miss the Columbian riders getting busted or Rodgers etc etc there'e quite a few more,,,including your Sky Boy JTL under suspicion
You can't ignore ,,oh no you can and you do ignore any evidence put in front of that does not back up your dreamy clean view of sports.
Cyclist are still doping that is JUST THE WAY IT IS.0 -
You mean apart from the fact we were not discussing cyclists, we were talking about Mo Farah.
I have no doubt there are lots of athletes doping, but you cant say Mo is doping simply because he is an athlete, you need some proof, Even a tiny bit? Thought not, the fact he has started to win things is enough for the doping trolls.0 -
Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
Quoting a half life without the required dose and detectable amount is well, spectacularly unhelpful!
And as for certain posters seemingly claiming every doping positive as some kind of victory for their world view where all cyclists are doping...I don't think anyone has ever claimed on this forum that cycling is suddenly completely pure. May posters think that cycling is cleaner than before, but that still means a certain percentage of cyclists will be doping, so positive tests aren't totally unexpected. Heck positive tests are good they show that the system is working.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
There is some information regarding bronchodilator use by athletes , [ I looked into this a few years ago for a friend who had asthma and was a bodybuilder]. and athletes that don't have asthma. but not really conclusive,,, you can cherry pick your Data.
But there is a significant increase in forced expiratory flow parameters when you take albuterol. Its not a lot, but there is some gain to be had. VO2max and VEmax can be higher You will get an increased ride time.
By the way , albuterol pills are on the banned substance list [WADA]
I am sure that you could do a google, and cherry pick a test, but the point is and it's not just in cycling that the percentage of athletes is significantly higher than is normal.
It is being used and athletes must be feeling the benefit ...it's been around for a while now.
So they are taking it for some reason
I'm not getting into one about, I'm sure there is data that would say I am wrong.
You just have to make your own mind up.0 -
mike6 wrote:You mean apart from the fact we were not discussing cyclists, we were talking about Mo Farah.
I have no doubt there are lots of athletes doping, but you cant say Mo is doping simply because he is an athlete, you need some proof, Even a tiny bit? Thought not, the fact he has started to win things is enough for the doping trolls.
I never said he was doping. if you look back at what I posted regarding his coach Salazar and the Kenyans doping and the Nike Oregon project then it does raise suspicion ,,,that's all.0 -
Jez mon " Heck positive tests are good they show that the system is working."
It also shows that riders still feel the need to dope to race.
These are not riders setting the peloton alight.
You are saying that these doped riders are getting the arse's kicked by clean peloton.
I doubt it.0 -
Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]
Not bad. Did he write a similar piece last year, also in the ft?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Jez mon wrote:Joelsim wrote:mike6 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Have a good listen to those in charge mike6, they obviously know far more than us. Dick Pound for a start.
Oh, and history. If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd.
So...because you say it is we all have to believe it? I dont think so.
History eh? Foster, Moorcroft, McLeod, Black, Hill, Stewart, dont remember any of those British distance running greats ever testing positive.
As I say, you cant simply blacken someones reputation because you feel like it.
I don't remember LA testing positive for EPO whilst he was racing. Like the man said himself there is a half life of 4 hours on that. And plenty of ways of manipulating blood samples to compensate for young cells, lack of cells, percentages etc etc.
It's got nothing to do with me saying something that you have to believe, it's just the way it is currently.
Quoting a half life without the required dose and detectable amount is well, spectacularly unhelpful!
And as for certain posters seemingly claiming every doping positive as some kind of victory for their world view where all cyclists are doping...I don't think anyone has ever claimed on this forum that cycling is suddenly completely pure. May posters think that cycling is cleaner than before, but that still means a certain percentage of cyclists will be doping, so positive tests aren't totally unexpected. Heck positive tests are good they show that the system is working.
The general consensus, from everything I've read, is that an athlete can take EPO at 11pm and by the morning they are not glowing. Given that info, getting caught is almost impossible. Forget about the other doping products that have limited effects and concentrate on EPO and transfusions. The blood passport certainly helps in cycling, but is hardly in use in any other sport. Furthermore by it's nature, values within the blood naturally vary and can be manipulated for the passport.
Put simply, you have to be a muppet to get caught. With that in mind it is hardly surprising that I don't believe many of the top performers are clean in any endurance sport.0 -
iainf72 wrote:Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz yawn0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:iainf72 wrote:Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]
Not bad. Did he write a similar piece last year, also in the ft?
yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz again
Another fine contribution 0 -
RichN95 wrote:
If we leave aside the fact that the Atlanta Olympics were 18 years ago, there's a big difference between 'over 50%' and 80%.rayjay wrote:
And joelsim is correct and from memory [no fu%king google ] at the Atlanta Olympics it was over 50% for cyclists which is a bulls5it amount.
Some German doping expert in 2007 reckoned at times 80% of riders were recognised by the UCI as asthmatic but the same report said up to 40% had a TUE. Rates in the general population are around 10% I believe.0 -
Pross wrote:Some German doping expert in 2007 reckoned at times 80% of riders were recognised by the UCI as asthmatic but the same report said up to 40% had a TUE. Rates in the general population are around 10% I believe.
Werner Franke I think it was.
He's quite good but he is prone to exaggeration.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
40% was the figure I was aware of. Rates in sport are, I believe, higher than the general public anyway, due to better diagnosis and Exercise-Induced Asthma.Pross wrote:Some German doping expert in 2007 reckoned at times 80% of riders were recognised by the UCI as asthmatic but the same report said up to 40% had a TUE. Rates in the general population are around 10% I believe.Twitter: @RichN950 -
rayjay wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:iainf72 wrote:Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]
Not bad. Did he write a similar piece last year, also in the ft?
yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz again
Another fine contribution
Yep, in comparison to those two efforts by you. I guess it doesn't suit your agenda?0 -
rayjay wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:iainf72 wrote:Tim Harford has written a piece
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3c0d4538-99c4 ... z2u3F00mql
[I'm a fan, not sure if I put his book on my recommended reading]
Not bad. Did he write a similar piece last year, also in the ft?
yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz again
Another fine contribution
And your last contribution for a fortnight.0 -
I see David Walsh was on Channel 4's The Morning Line yesterday; doesn't seem impressed by Racing's attitude to it's 'doping problem'. It will be interesting to see how the racing journalists tackle this - they're not known for rocking the boat.All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."0
-
AndyRAC wrote:I see David Walsh was on Channel 4's The Morning Line yesterday; doesn't seem impressed by Racing's attitude to it's 'doping problem'. It will be interesting to see how the racing journalists tackle this - they're not known for rocking the boat.
Racing has quite a few problems which are mostly dealt with by the head in sand approach. How to make a horse run slower is one of the finer techniques of the dark arts.0
