Vuelta Stage 17 **Spoiler**

nweststeyn

Sorry I thought we were all just posting things we've all heard before...

bompington

nweststeyn wrote:

Sorry I thought we were all just posting things we've all heard before...

No, quite appropriate lyrics really. Seems that if we want exciting racing, we all have to live in a dream world.

frenchfighter

inkyfingers

frenchfighter wrote:

Look at Contador, what a wheel sucker!

frenchfighter

alan_a

JonGinge wrote:

Just watched the highlights. J-Rod only lost 20s to AC on the final climb. That's reasonably consistent with their relative performances in the TT.

When the gap grew to 2 minutes AC had two team-mates and Tiralongo working. J-Rod just had Losada. Once AC went alone it was him versus J-Rod as Losada had blown by that point and no-one else in the group was working. When Valverde attacked J-Rod he had two guys up the road and he used them well.

This.

Excellent viewing, loved watching it although for the first half of the highlights I had my doubts. I'm no Bertie fan, but seeing the effort he was puttin in at the end and the manner in which he did it I was impressed, very impressed.

Vino2007

I don't think tiralongo was repaying contador, he was in the situation that if he rode with contador he would get the stage win. Why do people overthink everything.

ocdupalais

inkyfingers wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Look at Contador, what a wheel sucker!

The pictures show it was much murkier in the past... It's much cleaner looking now

inkyfingers

Vino2007 wrote:

I don't think tiralongo was repaying contador, he was in the situation that if he rode with contador he would get the stage win. Why do people overthink everything.

Because otherwise this message board would be very dull.

rick_chasey

inkyfingers wrote:

Vino2007 wrote:

I don't think tiralongo was repaying contador, he was in the situation that if he rode with contador he would get the stage win. Why do people overthink everything.

Because otherwise this message board would be very dull.

That'd be why he was putting in some uncessarily stonking turns.

If he was going for the win he'd have worked out Contador was gunning for GC and sat on his wheel.

:roll:

mroli

knedlicky wrote:

But when you watched today, it wasn’t the equivalent of you coming out of a shop and then realising you’d been short-changed.

It was the equivalent of you having once visited a shop and coming out satisfied but then having heard someone else got short-changed there, and decided you too then.
So now every time you go to any shop you’re suspicious and can’t enjoy shopping.

Ah interesting. When I posted my original comment, it wasn't a comment on whether or not I thought Contador (or Valverde for that matter) was doping on Stage 17 of the Vuelta 2012. What it was, was a reflection of the fact that here was the best GT rider of recent times, tearing it up on a GT, hauling time back on the leader and "smashing" it and I could not really enjoy it, because of his doping conviction. I enjoyed the 2011 Giro (where he dominated) more. I guess for me, that "guilty" verdict (and a subsequent lack of contrition), just taints him as a rider for me.

To use knedlicky's example, its not the same as shopping, but more that the product that I'd bought at a shop (eg a tyre) was initially brilliant and then let me down really badly. The manufacturers redesigned it and I bought it again, but at the back of my mind is the fear that it'd let me down again.

I can see why others think that this is a fantastic race, just for me, doper wins from doper just doesn't float my boat.

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

Vino2007 wrote:

I don't think tiralongo was repaying contador, he was in the situation that if he rode with contador he would get the stage win. Why do people overthink everything.

Because otherwise this message board would be very dull.

That'd be why he was putting in some uncessarily stonking turns.

If he was going for the win he'd have worked out Contador was gunning for GC and sat on his wheel.

:roll:

I don't think it's overthinking it.

Cycling is no different from any other 'job'

What goes around comes around and you help your mates....

poppit

mroli wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

But when you watched today, it wasn’t the equivalent of you coming out of a shop and then realising you’d been short-changed.

It was the equivalent of you having once visited a shop and coming out satisfied but then having heard someone else got short-changed there, and decided you too then.
So now every time you go to any shop you’re suspicious and can’t enjoy shopping.

Ah interesting. When I posted my original comment, it wasn't a comment on whether or not I thought Contador (or Valverde for that matter) was doping on Stage 17 of the Vuelta 2012. What it was, was a reflection of the fact that here was the best GT rider of recent times, tearing it up on a GT, hauling time back on the leader and "smashing" it and I could not really enjoy it, because of his doping conviction. I enjoyed the 2011 Giro (where he dominated) more. I guess for me, that "guilty" verdict (and a subsequent lack of contrition), just taints him as a rider for me.

To use knedlicky's example, its not the same as shopping, but more that the product that I'd bought at a shop (eg a tyre) was initially brilliant and then let me down really badly. The manufacturers redesigned it and I bought it again, but at the back of my mind is the fear that it'd let me down again.

I can see why others think that this is a fantastic race, just for me, doper wins from doper just doesn't float my boat.

+1

lostboysaint

+ another.

clanton

mroli wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

But when you watched today, it wasn’t the equivalent of you coming out of a shop and then realising you’d been short-changed.

It was the equivalent of you having once visited a shop and coming out satisfied but then having heard someone else got short-changed there, and decided you too then.
So now every time you go to any shop you’re suspicious and can’t enjoy shopping.

Ah interesting. When I posted my original comment, it wasn't a comment on whether or not I thought Contador (or Valverde for that matter) was doping on Stage 17 of the Vuelta 2012. What it was, was a reflection of the fact that here was the best GT rider of recent times, tearing it up on a GT, hauling time back on the leader and "smashing" it and I could not really enjoy it, because of his doping conviction. I enjoyed the 2011 Giro (where he dominated) more. I guess for me, that "guilty" verdict (and a subsequent lack of contrition), just taints him as a rider for me.

To use knedlicky's example, its not the same as shopping, but more that the product that I'd bought at a shop (eg a tyre) was initially brilliant and then let me down really badly. The manufacturers redesigned it and I bought it again, but at the back of my mind is the fear that it'd let me down again.

I can see why others think that this is a fantastic race, just for me, doper wins from doper just doesn't float my boat.

This. I also cannot feel joy at ex dopers winning either. David Millar being the exception as he has apologised and I've "accepted" that apology.

rick_chasey

clanton wrote:

This. I also cannot feel joy at ex dopers winning either. David Millar being the exception as he has apologised and I've "accepted" that apology.

We're all hypocrites.

Just get over it and enjoy the racing.

It's the wrong sport to enjoy if you feel bad whenever someone you think is doping or has doped wins.

Tom Butcher

For me it's the best GT of the year by far - one of the best of recent times. I can understand people not wanting a winner who has served a doping suspension - fair enough - personally once they've served a ban I have no problems with them winning.

Can't see why the way they've raced here screams doping though. If anything the Tour was more akin to the bad old days - Sky train smashing everyone - domestiques putting former Tour winners in trouble - time trial specialists going up mountains with climbing specialists. As for deals done - well that's always been part of cycling - Contador got paid back for a favour done in the past - that's part of cycling and it's all the richer for it. If we just wanted to see the strongest man winning we could have a dull as ditchwater time trial every day.

frenchfighter

Well put Tom.

thegibdog

Outsider art by Loan wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Started off enjoying it but I was soon questioning what I was seeing. I've been suspending my disbelief for a while but finding it really hard to today.

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

I'm sorry that you think I have a "facile understanding of what went down", I was just stating how I felt as I watched the stage. Interesting you say that and then offer up Contador almost being caught by Valverde as a reason to believe...

It'd not often you see the words "facile" and "what went down" in the same sentence though, I applaud you for that!

frenchfighter

Last 30km
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/vuel ... 9/1521322/

frenchfighter

About the day’s action, Alberto admitted that it had been “a bit kamikaze. First we climbed Ozalba and I saw that people were weakening. And then on the Collado de la Hoz, a group with three of my teammates in it was going ahead and I told them through the radio to go ‘full gas’, then I took off for good, like on Alpe D’Huez in the 2011 Tour. Then it was just a question of rowing to the finish.”

But the strategy hadn’t been thought out in advance. “When I jumped, I had thought about trying in the final three kilometers, but when I attacked and I had a devil on one shoulder who told me ‘Attack!’ and an angel on the other, who told me to be careful...but I decided to attack,” said Alberto, who also gave special thanks “to the job done by Tiralongo, who is a great, great friend and has lent me a wonderful hand.”

--

“It was simply an amazing performance by the entire team and it was part of the plan from the start of the stage," said a delighted Bradley McGee, Saxo-Tinkoff DS. "On the two first climb, Jesus Hernandez, Bruno Pires and Sergio Paulinho jumped away from the pack and the Katusha seemed stunned and then Alberto simply bridged the gap alone to his teammates and continued to the final climb where he put in an unforgettably powerful effort to stay in front and not only take the jersey but put the icing on the cake by taking the stage win as well."

---

Saxo on the rest day, with Riis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb1yPhVZ ... r_embedded

rick_chasey

Guess that proves it was JRod who didn't ride on the rest day, not Contador!

ratsbeyfus

Saw the highlights this morning - a fantastic stage, the sort that will be written about and known for many years to come. I thought Harmon's commentating was superb as well - damn that ruddy question mark that will always hang over Contador... I'd love AC to come clean about his distant and recent past in the new 'perestroika' climate sweeping through cycling, ditch Riis and sign up to a more 'transparent' team.

Richmond Racer

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Saw the highlights this morning - a fantastic stage, the sort that will be written about and known for many years to come. I thought Harmon's commentating was superb as well - damn that ruddy question mark that will always hang over Contador... I'd love AC to come clean about his distant and recent past in the new 'perestroika' climate sweeping through cycling, ditch Riis and sign up to a more 'transparent' team.

+1. Riis looks like he's heading for the cliff - cant see how he's going to wriggle out of this, and the Danish media are really going to town now - but even with him gone, with Mr Tinki around its always going to seem dodgy.

Dorset_Boy

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Saw the highlights this morning - a fantastic stage, the sort that will be written about and known for many years to come. I thought Harmon's commentating was superb as well - damn that ruddy question mark that will always hang over Contador... I'd love AC to come clean about his distant and recent past in the new 'perestroika' climate sweeping through cycling, ditch Riis and sign up to a more 'transparent' team.

That's the crux though isn't it. If you get caught doping and come clean about it, and repent, then people will respect you, and be happy for you to win post doing your time.

It is the unrepentent doper that continues to win post ban that get's people.

Bertie had a chance to show contrition when he was caught, but didn't and remains guided by some seriously dodgy characters.

With regards to deals with other team members, so long as no 'financial rewards' result, then there's no problem - as others have said, it's part of racing.

ratsbeyfus

Dorset Boy wrote:

That's the crux though isn't it. If you get caught doping and come clean about it, and repent, then people will respect you, and be happy for you to win post doing your time.

It is the unrepentent doper that continues to win post ban that get's people.

Bertie had a chance to show contrition when he was caught, but didn't and remains guided by some seriously dodgy characters.

Got to agree with all of that, except that Bertie has got another opportunity to be truthful right now. A bit like when Basso when the Giro in 2010 he made implicit suggestions that he'd been a naughty boy in the past but was happy to finally win clean. I'd hope Bertie would be a bit more explicit in his choice of words however.

Vino'sGhost

I think we should enjoy the spectacle, I cant see any obvious doping and the puritanical approach some people have is bizarre.

If people don't enjoy it, don't believe it or feel they are personally owed an as yet un received personal grovelling apology and plea for forgiveness then don't watch it.

Simples

mooro

[/quote]It'd not often you see the words "facile" and "what went down" in the same sentence though, I applaud you for that![/quote]

That is the best line i have read on here for ages - touche!

Vino'sGhost

poppit wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

poppit wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

Another pit swamping guardian reader

I feel quite sorry for you, you're obviously quite an obnoxious person who just likes to spit out anonymous insults.

Save you pity for someone that needs or cares for it. TBH i dont feel anything for you as youre an anonymous person who seems unable to see that deals get done and always have got done, and always will get done. If you cant see that theres precious little hope for an informed decision or comment.

Im just going to enjoy what has become one of the most entertaining and hard fought GTs in years.

There are ways of making comments without being obnoxious or insulting

Or patronising with a self assumed superiority. A usual response (that or indignation or offence) from the limited to draw attention from their own shortcomings.

lloyd_bower

poppit wrote:

mroli wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

But when you watched today, it wasn’t the equivalent of you coming out of a shop and then realising you’d been short-changed.

It was the equivalent of you having once visited a shop and coming out satisfied but then having heard someone else got short-changed there, and decided you too then.
So now every time you go to any shop you’re suspicious and can’t enjoy shopping.

Ah interesting. When I posted my original comment, it wasn't a comment on whether or not I thought Contador (or Valverde for that matter) was doping on Stage 17 of the Vuelta 2012. What it was, was a reflection of the fact that here was the best GT rider of recent times, tearing it up on a GT, hauling time back on the leader and "smashing" it and I could not really enjoy it, because of his doping conviction. I enjoyed the 2011 Giro (where he dominated) more. I guess for me, that "guilty" verdict (and a subsequent lack of contrition), just taints him as a rider for me.

To use knedlicky's example, its not the same as shopping, but more that the product that I'd bought at a shop (eg a tyre) was initially brilliant and then let me down really badly. The manufacturers redesigned it and I bought it again, but at the back of my mind is the fear that it'd let me down again.

I can see why others think that this is a fantastic race, just for me, doper wins from doper just doesn't float my boat.

+1

+ another