Vuelta Stage 17 **Spoiler**

Matt_as

The effects of drugs like EPO and taking drug transfusions don't stay in your system indefinitely. Once you don't take it long enough which only a matter of months at most you red blood cell count will go back to your natural amount (or possibly even less if you have done it so often your body can slow down its natural production) and there will be no lasting effects.
I wouldn't say they tore off up the road. They got ahead but in all sports someone has to be better than the others or there would be no winners and losers. I am not condoning anyones drug use or making excuses for them but at some point riders like Contador and Valverde must have proved their worth as bike racers while riding clean and they are not exactly riders who suddenly became really good like say Riis or Giorgio Furlan in the '90s. So maybe they are still going to come out on top if racing clean.

mooro

Paul 8v wrote:

mattshrops wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

OK, anyone care to shed some light on this? Looked like a guy dressed as a cow nodding his head up and down?! Steak joke? Or mad spanish guy...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86701428@N06/7939416468/in/photostream

I saw that on the tv as he passed it. Thought it was a bear! Now looking at the photo, weeell it looks like a bear. Guess its some sort of demo ala TdF ?? Bloody good costume tho

To be fair I thought it looked like a bear but that didn't male much sense so I assumed it must have been a cow to take the mick out of AC. It was odd how he was all by himself, just hanging out in a bear costume!

When we were across watching the tour in the french pyrenees there were some french farmers protesting about pyrenea n bears now being protected, the farmers could no longer shoot them but could claim for financial support for any livestock they lost. Maybe it was a similar if more subtle protest!

mooro

JonGinge wrote:

Just watched the highlights. J-Rod only lost 20s to AC on the final climb. That's reasonably consistent with their relative performances in the TT.

When the gap grew to 2 minutes AC had two team-mates and Tiralongo working. J-Rod just had Losada. Once AC went alone it was him versus J-Rod as Losada had blown by that point and no-one else in the group was working. When Valverde attacked J-Rod he had two guys up the road and he used them well.

+1!

Nothing like flandis' attack really and it didnt really look that unbelievable.

The only thing i would add to the above is the earlier Contador / Valverde attach caused Katusha to burn their team up chasing down that attack which ultimately isolated him on the penultimate climb. Some spot on tactics really.

thegibdog

Started off enjoying it but I was soon questioning what I was seeing. I've been suspending my disbelief for a while but finding it really hard to today.

Outsider art by Loan

thegibdog wrote:

Started off enjoying it but I was soon questioning what I was seeing. I've been suspending my disbelief for a while but finding it really hard to today.

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

cal_stewart

what all the doping talk about, heard he just chilled yesterday and had steak and chips

ocdupalais

Outsider art by Loan wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Started off enjoying it but I was soon questioning what I was seeing. I've been suspending my disbelief for a while but finding it really hard to today.

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

Really? I'd say it demonstrates the desire not to be taken for a f*cking fool again.

dougzz

Outsider art by Loan wrote:

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

OK, now I understand, Contador couldn't be juiced today because Valverde almost caught him. That's cleared that up then.
Whatever else may or may not have happened today, much of the posting on here is no different to Liggett's radio piece about Lance.

addnort

first post i get all the crap bertie gets but today was some of the best cycling tactics ive seen for ages proper cycle racing might be naive but that was awsome for me

shockedsoshocked

Matt_as wrote:

The effects of drugs like EPO and taking drug transfusions don't stay in your system indefinitely. Once you don't take it long enough which only a matter of months at most you red blood cell count will go back to your natural amount (or possibly even less if you have done it so often your body can slow down its natural production) and there will be no lasting effects.

I'm sorry but that is cack. Doping enables an athlete to train/race past their natural ability. As a result even when you come off them there is still a significant training effect.

addnort

agree thats rubbish

Outsider art by Loan

OCDuPalais wrote:

Outsider art by Loan wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Started off enjoying it but I was soon questioning what I was seeing. I've been suspending my disbelief for a while but finding it really hard to today.

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

Really? I'd say it demonstrates the desire not to be taken for a f*cking fool again.

Heh - that would be paranoid and egocentric. No one's 'taking you for a fool'. I doubt there's a professional cyclist who would care what you think if they knew of your existence, the invisible individual. Really. When athletes dope, it's not personal. You just aren't involved.

dougzz wrote:

Outsider art by Loan wrote:

That seems to be a common view, but it demonstrates such a facile understanding of what went down. If Contador is doping, his ride this stage is no evidence of it. Actually I thought he looked pretty mortal, almost being caught, and quite quickly too, by a fresher Valverde.

OK, now I understand, Contador couldn't be juiced today because Valverde almost caught him. That's cleared that up then.

The point is that Contador was probably no stronger in stage 17 than in any stage prior; that his performance was probably consistent with the perfectly credible performances of those stages.

Earthbound

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Matt_as wrote:

The effects of drugs like EPO and taking drug transfusions don't stay in your system indefinitely. Once you don't take it long enough which only a matter of months at most you red blood cell count will go back to your natural amount (or possibly even less if you have done it so often your body can slow down its natural production) and there will be no lasting effects.

I'm sorry but that is cack. Doping enables an athlete to train/race past their natural ability. As a result even when you come off them there is still a significant training effect.

So you took an aspirin 20 years ago and have never has a headache since? Of course the effects of drugs wear off, that's what repeat prescripions are for.

Earthbound

The only person today whose performance was noticably changed was Rodriguez - he had a stinker. AND no team to support him at all, Katusha messed up.

All the drug obsessives on this forum claiming Extra Terrestiral for their favourite whipping boys Valverde and Contador choose to overlook the fact that they could't outride Henao, Marcotegui, Nocentini so they weren't that good. And Rodriguez finished behind Bakelants, Elloriaga, Geniez etc, etc. so he really was poor.

Add to the fact that tactically it was brilliant by Contador to attack when least expected rather than persisting with going in the last 3k of the final climb and having Rodriguez hold on, a tactic which was failing to produce any results. The fact that the earlier attacks revealed that all was not well today for Rodriguez only added incentive and confidence for Contador to give it a go and carry on.

It wasn't even a tough route. Not the kind of route you would normally see a GC contender really giving it a go, very rare this ever happens, so we're not used to seeing the top riders treating this type of stage in this way. The fact that riders like Contador and Valverde literally gave it everything today and yet some domestiques could stay with them suggests normal human performance to me.

There were about 40 or so riders racing today, all finished within about 5 mins of Contador. The rest were just a peloton without a purpose, no normal 'break' to chase down, the breakaway were the leaders. No leaders to ride for, they were already up the road. So the peloton strolled in 20 minutes later, day off guys.

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

I wonder how Wiggins would have faired in this race also. With his supreme TT ability, I don't see why he can't use it within stages. Assuming the rest of the field is broken up so there are no huge groups chasing, then why can't he just TT away from everyone.

Nothing I've seen so far looks beyond the Wiggins we saw in the Tour. Then again he'd have lost time here and there due to the time bonuses

As for TT ing away from small groups - well first you have to make sure no-one gets in your wheel - and Wiggins does not have the best punch.

frenchfighter

Mooro wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

Just watched the highlights. J-Rod only lost 20s to AC on the final climb. That's reasonably consistent with their relative performances in the TT.

When the gap grew to 2 minutes AC had two team-mates and Tiralongo working. J-Rod just had Losada. Once AC went alone it was him versus J-Rod as Losada had blown by that point and no-one else in the group was working. When Valverde attacked J-Rod he had two guys up the road and he used them well.

+1!

Nothing like flandis' attack really and it didnt really look that unbelievable.

The only thing i would add to the above is the earlier Contador / Valverde attach caused Katusha to burn their team up chasing down that attack which ultimately isolated him on the penultimate climb. Some spot on tactics really.

Yep on both. It is a shame Moreno wasn't with him.

frenchfighter

Matt_as

OK answer this. If the effects of blood doing don't wear off, why do riders need to take the risk of using them during races and why would a rider need to use the rest day to charge up? Obviously a lot of people on this forum have an opinion about things even though they have no understanding of those things!!

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

at what point in km did Conty attack, how far out, or was it timed when spanish telly were not filming his attack ?

Contador and Tiralongo attacked with 22km to go and Tiralongo dropped off with 13km to go.

Looked more like an acceleration for the bonus seconds for the intermediate sprint to me, rather than a full on attack.

Result was the same - only Tiralongo could or wanted to follow.

ocdupalais

Matt_as wrote:

OK answer this. If the effects of blood doing don't wear off...

I haven't read anyone denying that they don't "wear off" - it's more a question of "do the effects totally disappear?".

If the answer to this is "no", you'll only need a small percentage increase in your power output to see your performance enhanced.

poppit

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

Another pit swamping guardian reader

I feel quite sorry for you, you're obviously quite an obnoxious person who just likes to spit out anonymous insults.

bompington

Matt_as wrote:

Obviously a lot of people on this forum have an opinion about things even though they have no understanding of those things!!

What? on the internet? Who'd have thought it!

Matt_as

The lasting effects of regular epo use are more likely to be detrimental due.to it causing your bodies natural.red blood cell production to decrease.

ocdupalais

Real shame the TV cameras missed so much of the early action yesterday... So many questions!
Primarily, what were Katusha playing at? And how hard and for how long did Sky, Rabo etc bother chasing for?

Was everyone that knackered!? Was that why Froome couldn't hold onto first big group across line and lost a further 10 secs?

Also, does Bertie not doing his silly pistol thing across the finish line mean he's not doing that any more (except on the podium), or did he just forget because he hasn't won for a while?

Brilliant and brave riding: I've missed him, despite the concerns...

FF, have you tracked down any photos from early St 17?

alanjay

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

Another pit swamping guardian reader

Times actually darling - none of that leftie rubbish x

TONY.M

Back on topic, I caught the highlights on ITV4 last night and this years Vuelta just continues to be an absolutely excellent Grand Tour, really about the best I can remember and so much fun to watch. Now if only the Tour was this good...

Vino'sGhost

poppit wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

Another pit swamping guardian reader

I feel quite sorry for you, you're obviously quite an obnoxious person who just likes to spit out anonymous insults.

Save you pity for someone that needs or cares for it. TBH i dont feel anything for you as youre an anonymous person who seems unable to see that deals get done and always have got done, and always will get done. If you cant see that theres precious little hope for an informed decision or comment.

Im just going to enjoy what has become one of the most entertaining and hard fought GTs in years.

TONY.M

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

I suppose the more "exciting" the route the less clean the riders are then even if they are quite evenly matched?
When Wiggo destroys everyone on boring TDF parcours it must be because he is clean... National pride coming into play perhaps?

poppit

Vino'sGhost wrote:

poppit wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

alanjay wrote:

poppit wrote:

Can't watch it, seems like we've gone back to the bad old days, drugs, deals done, etc.

+1 absolute joke this GT

Another pit swamping guardian reader

I feel quite sorry for you, you're obviously quite an obnoxious person who just likes to spit out anonymous insults.

Save you pity for someone that needs or cares for it. TBH i dont feel anything for you as youre an anonymous person who seems unable to see that deals get done and always have got done, and always will get done. If you cant see that theres precious little hope for an informed decision or comment.

Im just going to enjoy what has become one of the most entertaining and hard fought GTs in years.

There are ways of making comments without being obnoxious or insulting

nweststeyn

Is this the real lifeeee?
Is it just fantasyyyy?
Caught in a landslideeeeeee
No escape from realityyyyyy
Open your eyesssss
Look up to the skies and seeeeeeee
Im just a poor boyyyy
I need no sympathyyyy
Cos im easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blowssss doesn't really matter to meeeeee