Hamilton's autobiography *spoilers*

Lichtblick

calvjones wrote:

Sorta reasonable points, but people have more time for Ullrich (especially) and Pantani because they were a loveable buffoon and histrionic panache-merchant respectively, (and not domineering, swaggering bullies at the head of a frat club of unlikeable strong-arm omerta-merchants), rather than because LA was a better cheat.

Well said! I wish I'd put it like that.

It seems to me that it's almost like a religious belief, where believers will never agree with non-believers and vice versa. To believers, LA is a noble hero who overcame cancer, won 7 tours and raised millions for charity. To non-believers he's what you said above.

I have read/heard these, down the years. They're researchable/verifiable, no doubt.

1. At the 2009 Tour, the TT round Lake Annecy. Contador was set to go off last, being the Yellow Jersey. Unknown to him, Armstrong/Bruyneel had taken all the Astana cars away from the hotel, leaving Contador stranded. If he, Contador, had not had his own brother there on site, he wouldn't have got to the start on time, and every second late would have counted off his GC time. (He got there, and completed it 3 seconds faster than Cancellara, and won the Tour (LA came 3rd). THAT's one of the many reasons why I support Contador, for all the shite he had to deal with.)

2. I have heard/read/both that for Armstrong "It's not enough to win. Everyone else has to lose." So, winning anything is insufficient; opponents noses have to be ground into the dirt. I'd call that the hallmark of a bully, and an immature bully at that (......am now wondering if all bullies are by definition immature?....). So, he came from divorced parents; so do millions of other young boys, and not all of them grow up to wish to pummel their opponents into the ground by whatever means. (Wiggins, for example, also came from a "broken home".)

I can't help thinking from the calm of this serious office, that he (LA) needs some psychiatric help, but it is probably too late now. I also recognise that he wouldn't give a doodlysquat what I or anyone else thinks about the state of his mental health.

slim_boy_fat

More questioning of Riis.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-as ... p;ns_fee=0

skylla

RichN95 wrote:

Lichtblick wrote:

To bompington and skylla, It wasn't my theory/idea, as I said:

An alternative POV put to me here by someone else.....

I'm always glad when someone else at work has sufficient interest to have conversations about Pro Cycling.
They could hardly not know how interested I am, since the Tour, the Olympics, and the Vuelta have all been on this computer in this office this year. (with sound muted )

I think that someone else was me. My view is that if everyone is cheating then the ability of an athlete to respond favourably to drugs just becomes another physical attribute - no difference to lung capacity or body shape. So in a 100% dirty sport, assuming no-one has access to magic beans, the playing field is a level as it is in a 100% clean field. A better doctor becomes no different than a better coach. And saying someone is successful just because they are a better responder is no different than saying they only won because they had bigger lungs.

'Better Responder' has become a get-out clause which permits people to demonize one doper (typically Armstrong) while still remaining fond of others (Pantani & Ullrich are favourites here). Some may even use it to portray their favourite doper as a victim. In reality they are all cheats, so don't complain that another cheat turned out to be a better cheat that your pet cheat.

It honestly doesn't matter whether a doper is a better responder, has access to the best doctor, can pay for the best PEDs, is a total buffoon, has had cancer, is dating a model: IT IS AGAINST THE RULES.

And just in case this is still not understood: PEDs are not against the rules because they create an even or uneven playing field. Get a grip people.

frenchfighter

frenchfighter wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jorg-jaksche-doping-hypocrisy-and-a-dog-called-bella

The bit about the UCI once again shows them for what they are: a totally corrupt piece of work and a barrier for positive advancement of this sport.

slim_boy_fat

frenchfighter wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jorg-jaksche-doping-hypocrisy-and-a-dog-called-bella

The bit about the UCI once again shows them for what they are: a totally corrupt piece of work and a barrier for positive advancement of this sport.

You can only imagine the sorts of conversations that are going on at the moment between the main players. Hopefully the noose it tightening and they will not be able to save their skins.

No_Ta_Doctor

The shit is really hitting the fan here in Denmark.

Jørgen Leth has weighed in saying he thinks Hamilton's accusations are "likley true".

If you don't know Leth, he made "A Sunday In Hell" (watch it if you haven't already) and is the voice of cycling in Denmark. He's been commentating since before I was born (don't ask, a long time ago).

Previously he's been very, very supportive of Riis.

Vino'sGhost

Thing is hes just saying this stuff, theres no evidence. Not even a statement from the people hes accusing. Sloppy journalism but appealing to the feeding frenzy; all chum and no swimmer.

Vino'sGhost

No tA Doctor wrote:

The shoot is really hitting the fan here in Denmark.

Jørgen Leth has weighed in saying he thinks Hamilton's accusations are "likley true".

If you don't know Leth, he made "A Sunday In Hell" (watch it if you haven't already) and is the voice of cycling in Denmark. He's been commentating since before I was born (don't ask, a long time ago).

Previously he's been very, very supportive of Riis.

A sunday in hell. Great film that even non cyclists get. wiggins should watch to see what real sideburns look like

RichN95.

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Thing is hes just saying this stuff, theres no evidence. Not even a statement from the people hes accusing. Sloppy journalism but appealing to the feeding frenzy; all chum and no swimmer.

This is why some people call on cyclists to speak out. It's not because they believe it will help cycling, it's because they want gossip and a story.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Thing is hes just saying this stuff, theres no evidence. Not even a statement from the people hes accusing. Sloppy journalism but appealing to the feeding frenzy; all chum and no swimmer.

This is why some people call on cyclists to speak out. It's not because they believe it will help cycling, it's because they want gossip and a story.

Not quite.

It's like footballers only getting a violent conduct charge from the FA if they get pulled up on MoTD. Without public pressure nothing changes.

As cycling fans we'd like something to be done, but we don't really have much voice. We'd like cyclists to speak up instead of mumbling about "long time ago, progress...blah...the future" because they've got louder voices and can create greater pressure. Obviously they've also got far more to lose as well, but that's another story.

I suspect that actually what happens is that most riders aren't all that interested in Armstrong, almost certainly think he doped but don't think it's got much to do with them now. They may have missed the bits about UCI cover-ups. Bruyneel is someone else's problem if he's not their DS. If he's been their DS then they probably want this all to go away asap.

Lichtblick

skylla wrote:

And just in case this is still not understood: PEDs are not against the rules because they create an even or uneven playing field. Get a grip people.

skylla, we've dealt with the level-playing-field thang further up this thread, and you said

So tell them it does not create a level playing field - for a few reasons more than that were mentioned above, but that's for another day or thread.

:shock: :?:

mfin

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/sep/01/commentary-curious-intersection-lance-and-landis/?page=1#article

Some interesting bits, including regarding Lance's Lawyers offering Hamilton free help, and stuff about Landis' Fairness Fund.

No_Ta_Doctor

Kindle loaded up (living in Denmark I'm forced to use Amazon.com instead of .co.uk, first time I'm glad about that - full version and out before the UK!), commute by bus today I reckon.

DeadCalm

No tA Doctor wrote:

Kindle loaded up (living in Denmark I'm forced to use Amazon.com instead of .co.uk, first time I'm glad about that - full version and out before the UK!), commute by bus today I reckon.

Got mine from Amazon France. I think and hope it's the unexpurgated version.

Richmond Racer

DeadCalm wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Kindle loaded up (living in Denmark I'm forced to use Amazon.com instead of .co.uk, first time I'm glad about that - full version and out before the UK!), commute by bus today I reckon.

Got mine from Amazon France. I think and hope it's the unexpurgated version.

It should be. The French libel laws are VERY lax. It seems to be just the UK that has to have the slightly (I hope) modified version because the libel laws here are so fierce (and likely to get even more so).

LangerDan

My Amazon search pulled up another book by "Tyler Hamilton" - "Mad Like Tesla: Underdog Inventors and their Relentless Pursuit of Clean Energy"

Cumulonimbus

LangerDan wrote:

My Amazon search pulled up another book by "Tyler Hamilton" - "Mad Like Tesla: Underdog Inventors and their Relentless Pursuit of Clean Energy"

Thats where he's hidden all the really juicy stuff

Richmond Racer

According to Danish media this morning, the Danish Anti-Doping agency are quoted as saying that they're investigating what options they have of using TH's revelations...

The noose is closing for Mr 60%

Spiny_Norman

No tA Doctor wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Thing is hes just saying this stuff, theres no evidence. Not even a statement from the people hes accusing. Sloppy journalism but appealing to the feeding frenzy; all chum and no swimmer.

This is why some people call on cyclists to speak out. It's not because they believe it will help cycling, it's because they want gossip and a story.

Not quite.

It's like footballers only getting a violent conduct charge from the FA if they get pulled up on MoTD. Without public pressure nothing changes.

As cycling fans we'd like something to be done, but we don't really have much voice. We'd like cyclists to speak up instead of mumbling about "long time ago, progress...blah...the future" because they've got louder voices and can create greater pressure. Obviously they've also got far more to lose as well, but that's another story.

I suspect that actually what happens is that most riders aren't all that interested in Armstrong, almost certainly think he doped but don't think it's got much to do with them now. They may have missed the bits about UCI cover-ups. Bruyneel is someone else's problem if he's not their DS. If he's been their DS then they probably want this all to go away asap.

I don't think anyone's missed those bits. In fact, I reckon those are the bits that have everyone most scared about speaking out. If the UCI have been complicit in rigging the tests and favouring certain riders/teams, it would take a brave man (or possibly one who has nothing to lose) to call them out.

I don't have confidence that anything will change without massive reform of the UCI, at the very least.

tremayne

Massive reform of UCI definitely needed. Rotten and corrupt.

Is the IOC any better?

Is Fifa a good example?

How the feck does sport keep the corruption out of the governing bodies. We have to find a solution!

Richmond Racer

Fair point about FIFA. But I think mass conspiracy involving a sport's governing body to faciliate doping is a whole different ball game (no pun intended) for the IOC to pay attention to, compared to bungs and freebie holidays.

Simmotino

Hamilton currently 'cleansing his soul' on NBC. Stream here: http://livetvcafe.net/video/8XBK9SMHGS9U/NBC

slim_boy_fat

Simmotino wrote:

Hamilton currently 'cleansing his soul' on NBC. Stream here: http://livetvcafe.net/video/8XBK9SMHGS9U/NBC

That just takes me to live local slags. Not ideal when my 5 year old daughter is sat next to me :roll:

andyp

LangerDan wrote:

My Amazon search pulled up another book by "Tyler Hamilton" - "Mad Like Tesla: Underdog Inventors and their Relentless Pursuit of Clean Energy"

As I recall, Iain's review of this in the Hindustan Times was positive.

Simmotino

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Simmotino wrote:

Hamilton currently 'cleansing his soul' on NBC. Stream here: http://livetvcafe.net/video/8XBK9SMHGS9U/NBC

That just takes me to live local slags. Not ideal when my 5 year old daughter is sat next to me :roll:

I can't help what your browsing history has Google return.

The stream is for NBC and the most 'risque' advert on the page for me is for daily disposable contact lenses with some bint in her PJ's.

Richmond Racer

No ads for women of ill-repute when I clicked on the link...

slim_boy_fat

Simmotino wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Simmotino wrote:

Hamilton currently 'cleansing his soul' on NBC. Stream here: http://livetvcafe.net/video/8XBK9SMHGS9U/NBC

That just takes me to live local slags. Not ideal when my 5 year old daughter is sat next to me :roll:

I can't help what your browsing history has Google return.

The stream is for NBC and the most 'risque' advert on the page for me is for daily disposable contact lenses with some bint in her PJ's.

On my wife's nexus 7 that arrived yesterday and only has the BBC news website in its browsing history? Not blaming you just warning others.

slim_boy_fat

Richmond Racer wrote:

No ads for women of ill-repute when I clicked on the link...

Nor I when I clicked a second time. Didn't get a good look first time

mfin

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Simmotino wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

Simmotino wrote:

Hamilton currently 'cleansing his soul' on NBC. Stream here: http://livetvcafe.net/video/8XBK9SMHGS9U/NBC

That just takes me to live local slags. Not ideal when my 5 year old daughter is sat next to me :roll:

I can't help what your browsing history has Google return.

The stream is for NBC and the most 'risque' advert on the page for me is for daily disposable contact lenses with some bint in her PJ's.

On my wife's nexus 7 that arrived yesterday and only has the BBC news website in its browsing history? Not blaming you just warning others.

If any other computers in the house (same IP address) have been looking at markets the advertising targets then that could also explain it.

tremayne

The Times has a rather nice/juicy double page extract from Hamiltons book. Just read it - very good reading.

Book is going to be fantastic.