Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

Lichtblick

Richmond Racer wrote:

Its the big shindig for 15th anniversary of Livestrong tonight....could be confession time! (not that I think that, really)

They are very messy eaters. No food on plates, it's all over the table. :x

iainf72

We all know ASO have said they'd rather not award the victories to someone else, right?

tallmansix

Given that doping has been, in my opinion, endemic and well organised for over 100 years in some cycling sports, it really isn't about Lance, it's the root of it.

Cycling has an odd setup when in comes to money and sponsors compared to some sports.

Anyway, apparently the 1920's competitor guide book for the Tour de France warned:

"the rule book distributed to riders by the organiser, Henri Desgrange, reminded them that drugs were not among items with which they would be provided"

It's moved on a bit I suppose but something at the heart of competitive cycling needs to change.

mike6

Lichtblick wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

Personally I hope they strip the wins from Lance and then give them to whoever came 2nd along with the prize money.

Okay we know a lot of the recipients may have chequered histories, but unless they have been disqualified from the races themselves should they not get them.

After all it will be what the internetz peeps want and a good way of the UCI to stick two fingers up at everyone else who dared rock the boat.

I notice that no one has replied to this post. After all, it's what internetz peeps want.

Therefore, the roll of honour would read:
1999: Alex Zülle (Five Festina riders including Zülle admitted taking EPO)
2000: Jan Ullrich (doping bans, barred from Tours, found guilty by CAS)
2001: Jan Ullrich
2002: Joseba Beloki (implicated in Operación Puerto) This poor sod was in the famous LA video riding over grass
2003: Jan Ullrich
2004: Andreas Klöden :?:
2005: Ivan Basso (suspended 2 years for doping)

Hmmmmmmmmm.................

The concensus seems to be that the results will show "No winner".

Richmond Racer

Michael Rasmussan says he's not Rider 14

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rasmuss ... t-rider-14

and that Mexico's a lovely place for a holiday

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

We all know ASO have said they'd rather not award the victories to someone else, right?

They should auction them for charity on e-bay.

(And if Armstrong wants to buy them back, so be it)

tarzan13

Rabobank is out - too much bad press. Interesting they also are incl behaviour UCI as one of the exit reason. Surely it's all starting to crack now. UCI will need to take firm action and clear house

Rabobank statement: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/raboban ... ling-teams

edit: Rabobank was not only shocked by the riders' doping confession made in the report, but mostly by the allegations that the international governing cycling tolerated or perhaps even covered up cheating in the sport. "The report shows that the international cycling world is flawed. Doping is everywhere at professional races and moreover it is supported even within the highest institutions of the cycling world. Our conclusion is thus that there is no way out of it. Which is why we have decided to stop supporting the professional teams," Bruggink said.

UCI response: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-res ... p;ns_fee=0

dennisn

VerwoodAsh wrote:

Personally I hope they strip the wins from Lance and then give them to whoever came 2nd along with the prize money.

Okay we know a lot of the recipients may have chequered histories, but unless they have been disqualified from the races themselves should they not get them.

I'm not a fan of people who want to re-write history. Good and bad things happen all over the world but simply (somehow) changing the history books won't change the fact that a event actually took place. I think the correct way to tell it is. "He won 7 TDF's, there were suspicions of drug use and other sporting violations during that time, these suspicions proved to be true after he retired with many other riders confessing to drug use during that time, as of this writting he not confessed to any wrong doing." Now that's definately the condensed version and the story is by no means over but to tell the story incorrectly by changing the facts does an ever greater disservice to everyone.
You can't have it the way you want it. You get things pretty much how they happened, with the exception of people who want it to turn out their way or not at all and will continue to push one way or the other. Even after it's all said and done.

mfin

Dennis. Most people want to see his titles stripped for this reason.

He got the recognition for winning the tours, and this goes some way to providing recognition that he did not deserve any of the wins, because he cheated, breaking clear rules to get the wins.

The 'he' isn't important, this should apply for anyone who's won anything through cheating in sport.

By the way, I honestly don't mean this badly, but try using paragraphs to break up your posts a bit, they don't flow very well without them and I'm sure its adds a bit to the perception a lot of people seem to have of you that you're often rambling.

Lichtblick

tarzan13 wrote:

Rabobank is out - too much bad press. Interesting they also are incl behaviour UCI as one of the exit reason. Surely it's all starting to crack now. UCI will need to take firm action and clear house

Rabobank statement: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/raboban ... ling-teams

edit: Rabobank was not only shocked by the riders' doping confession made in the report, but mostly by the allegations that the international governing cycling tolerated or perhaps even covered up cheating in the sport. "The report shows that the international cycling world is flawed. Doping is everywhere at professional races and moreover it is supported even within the highest institutions of the cycling world. Our conclusion is thus that there is no way out of it. Which is why we have decided to stop supporting the professional teams," Bruggink said.

UCI response: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-res ... p;ns_fee=0

Whoah! What does this mean for Rabobank riders? I tried to find a list, and got this:

http://www.rabobank.com/content/about_u ... g/tab2.jsp

That page doesn't exist, already. :shock:

These guys rode in the Vuelta:

RABOBANK (RAB) (NED)
161 GESINK Robert NED
162 BOOM Lars NED
163 BRESCHEL Matti DEN
164 CLEMENT Stef NED
165 GARATE Juan Manuel ESP
166 MOLLEMA Bauke NED
167 NIERMANN Grischa GER
168 TEN DAM Laurens NED
169 VAN WINDEN Dennis NED

and these guys in the Tour:

RABOBANK (RAB) (NED)
151 GESINK Robert NED
152 KRUIJSWIJK Steven NED
153 MOLLEMA Bauke NED
154 RENSHAW Mark AUS
155 SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon ESP
156 TANKINK Bram NED
157 TEN DAM Laurens NED
158 TJALLINGII Maarten NED
159 WYNANTS Maarten BEL

:!: :?:

Richmond Racer

thread confusion alert!!

Lichtblick, Rabo thread already set up:
viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12885308

tailwindhome

Richmond Racer wrote:

thread confusion alert!!

This place has gone to the dogs this weeks.


Rick you've dropped the ball

rob churchill

dennisn wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

Personally I hope they strip the wins from Lance and then give them to whoever came 2nd along with the prize money.

Okay we know a lot of the recipients may have chequered histories, but unless they have been disqualified from the races themselves should they not get them.

I'm not a fan of people who want to re-write history. Good and bad things happen all over the world but simply (somehow) changing the history books won't change the fact that a event actually took place. I think the correct way to tell it is. "He won 7 TDF's, there were suspicions of drug use and other sporting violations during that time, these suspicions proved to be true after he retired with many other riders confessing to drug use during that time, as of this writting he not confessed to any wrong doing." Now that's definitely the condensed version and the story is by no means over but to tell the story incorrectly by changing the facts does an ever greater disservice to everyone.
You can't have it the way you want it. You get things pretty much how they happened, with the exception of people who want it to turn out their way or not at all and will continue to push one way or the other. Even after it's all said and done.

Stripping him of his titles isn't rewriting history, pretending that any event didn't take place, or changing the facts.

I think the correct way to tell it is; "We thought he'd won 7 TdF's, but we now know he didn't win them at all. Now that we know the facts, he is no longer credited with any wins."

Because the fact is, he no more won those tours than if he'd done all but the first and last km of each stage riding in a team car.

nathancom

Richmond Racer wrote:

Its the big shindig for 15th anniversary of Livestrong tonight....could be confession time! (not that I think that, really)

hrmmm

andy_wrx

How long did that take you ?

Nicely done

andy_wrx

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

We all know ASO have said they'd rather not award the victories to someone else, right?

They should auction them for charity on e-bay.

(And if Armstrong wants to buy them back, so be it)

Remember what the Onion said back in Feb...
http://www.theonion.com/articles/antido ... anc,27331/

nathancom

andy_wrx wrote:

How long did that take you ?

Nicely done

Wish I could take credit

dennisn

mfin wrote:

Dennis. Most people want to see his titles stripped for this reason.

He got the recognition for winning the tours, and this goes some way to providing recognition that he did not deserve any of the wins, because he cheated, breaking clear rules to get the wins.

By the way, I honestly don't mean this badly, but try using paragraphs to break up your posts a bit, they don't flow very well without them and I'm sure its adds a bit to the perception a lot of people seem to have of you that you're often rambling.

I'm just saying to tell it like it happened / happens. That's what history is about, keeping the past alive whether good or bad. 100 years down the road it won't matter much at all except to the history buffs and they should get as many facts as they can and not conjecture and hearsay.

Yeah, I do need paragaph help in a bad way. In any case thanks for refering to me as a rambler. I do try to live up to it. You know, old and rambling. Drives my wife crazy at times and my brother is much worse than myself.

nathancom

dennisn wrote:

mfin wrote:

Dennis. Most people want to see his titles stripped for this reason.

He got the recognition for winning the tours, and this goes some way to providing recognition that he did not deserve any of the wins, because he cheated, breaking clear rules to get the wins.

By the way, I honestly don't mean this badly, but try using paragraphs to break up your posts a bit, they don't flow very well without them and I'm sure its adds a bit to the perception a lot of people seem to have of you that you're often rambling.

I'm just saying to tell it like it happened / happens. That's what history is about, keeping the past alive whether good or bad. 100 years down the road it won't matter much at all except to the history buffs and they should get as many facts as they can and not conjecture and hearsay.

Yeah, I do need paragaph help in a bad way. In any case thanks for refering to me as a rambler. I do try to live up to it. You know, old and rambling. Drives my wife crazy at times and my brother is much worse than myself.

Whatever, it's all still irrelevant. We will all be dead in 80 years so who cares, leave poor lance alone.

Why not go join a Buddhist commune where you can contemplate the futility of human ambition in peace.

dennisn

andy_wrx wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

We all know ASO have said they'd rather not award the victories to someone else, right?

They should auction them for charity on e-bay.

(And if Armstrong wants to buy them back, so be it)

Remember what the Onion said back in Feb...
http://www.theonion.com/articles/antido ... anc,27331/

Actually I don't think I'd be too quick in throwing away any relatively recent TDF memorabilia. I'm betting that some years down the road autographed jerseys, old kit, Trek special issue TDF bikes, and just about anything these guys touched will be prized by collectors.

RichN95.

dennisn wrote:

Actually I don't think I'd be too quick in throwing away any relatively recent TDF memorabilia. I'm betting that some years down the road autographed jerseys, old kit, Trek special issue TDF bikes, and just about anything these guys touched will be prized by collectors.

Apart from you missing the humour of the posts, you may have a point. I still have a yellow Livestrong band in its original packaging. I'm hoping it will be valuable in the future like an Iron Cross*.


*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

ratsbeyfus

RichN95 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Actually I don't think I'd be too quick in throwing away any relatively recent TDF memorabilia. I'm betting that some years down the road autographed jerseys, old kit, Trek special issue TDF bikes, and just about anything these guys touched will be prized by collectors.

Apart from you missing the humour of the posts, you may have a point. I still have a yellow Livestrong band in its original packaging. I'm hoping it will be valuable in the future like an Iron Cross*.


*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

I agree... they'll have all the cache and value of a Jim'll Fix It badge in the not too distant future.

dennisn

ratsbeyfus wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Actually I don't think I'd be too quick in throwing away any relatively recent TDF memorabilia. I'm betting that some years down the road autographed jerseys, old kit, Trek special issue TDF bikes, and just about anything these guys touched will be prized by collectors.

Apart from you missing the humour of the posts, you may have a point. I still have a yellow Livestrong band in its original packaging. I'm hoping it will be valuable in the future like an Iron Cross*.


*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

I agree... they'll have all the cache and value of a Jim'll Fix It badge in the not too distant future.

Never heard of that. Had to look it up. Some of the items for sale appeared to be a bit on the expensive side. I might go for the wallet though.

timoid.

dennisn wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Actually I don't think I'd be too quick in throwing away any relatively recent TDF memorabilia. I'm betting that some years down the road autographed jerseys, old kit, Trek special issue TDF bikes, and just about anything these guys touched will be prized by collectors.

Apart from you missing the humour of the posts, you may have a point. I still have a yellow Livestrong band in its original packaging. I'm hoping it will be valuable in the future like an Iron Cross*.


*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

I agree... they'll have all the cache and value of a Jim'll Fix It badge in the not too distant future.

Never heard of that. Had to look it up. Some of the items for sale appeared to be a bit on the expensive side. I might go for the wallet though.

Careful Denis, Jimmy Saville was definitely someone you didn't want to have a beer with.

Le Commentateur

RichN95 wrote:

*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

Not necessarily. Both figureheads in the respective affairs believed truth was less important than victory and there were/are lots of small fry with guilty pasts kept secret who, if exposed, might claim they were only following orders and in any case that's what you had to do to get on.

RichN95.

Le Commentateur wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

*A somewhat inappropriate analogy, I know.

Not necessarily. Both figureheads in the respective affairs believed truth was less important than victory and there were/are lots of small fry with guilty pasts kept secret who, if exposed, might claim they were only following orders and in any case that's what you had to do to get on.

Yeah, but you've ignored all the killing. Lots of killing.

nic_77

If you are awake it might be worth following @pearcesport (BBC). He's at the Livestrong event and just tweeted this:

Lance Armstrong due to speak for about 5 minutes at 0130 BST. Media not allowed in room, but speech will be released on YouTube half later [sic]

Could this be confession time??

nic_77

nic_77 wrote:

Could this be confession time??

That'll be a no then.
He received a standing ovation and said that past weeks had been "difficult".

As you were.

FJS

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hincape says he noticed in '95 that the peloton was going mega fast, so we can assume that's the year EPO took hold of a good portion of the peloton.

Probably a good guess, 1995. In 94 Gewiss-Ballan with Ferrari as team doctor could still properly dominate, out-preparing the rest. Giro, San Remo, LBL, their Fleche Wallonne 1-2-3, Lombardy, TdF 2nd, etc. In '95 they lost that dominance.

Mind, i remember Lemond talking about a sudden change in pace in 1991 at top GT level

silverpigeon

nic_77 wrote:

nic_77 wrote:

Could this be confession time??

That'll be a no then.
He received a standing ovation and said that past weeks had been "difficult".

As you were.

I too was half expecting a confession, but no.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8551269