Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

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  • Richrd2205
    Richrd2205 Posts: 1,267
    Good grief, nothing like a doping scandal to bring out the daft "I would do x," or "it's their choice," & so on....
    & Nico Roche is joining in to assert that he's clearly not understanding what preventing doping in sport or elsewhere....
    He seems to sum up a lot of this, so I'll go through some selected highlights:
    What I hate about guys who are caught like this is that, first, it takes them 10 years to admit they doped and, second, they say they only did it because everybody did it and they did it to keep up. That's bulls**t. It's not true and it's not fair to the riders that didn't dope and never will dope.

    While I wasn't really around the pro peloton during those early Armstrong years and maybe don't know what it was like,
    OK, so you preface your answer by saying that you don't understand. Good start in any discourse, I find.
    my team-mate at Ag2r-La Mondiale, Seb Hinault, was and he still races today, clean. Seb summed it up in a tweet yesterday saying: "These guys make me laugh, saying doping is global. It was only global in their team".
    Can I ask that someone checks what a non-sequitur is and sends it along to Nico? So you didn't know what it was like back then, but you had a friend who doesn't know either, so that demonstrates what exactly?
    It p****s me off that eight or 10 years later, after winning the prize money, buying the big houses and the flashy cars, they decide to come clean when they're cornered into it and then still blame somebody else. If you dope, don't blame anyone else. It's your choice. Admit it.
    & this is the bit that really p**ses me off. Choices are made rationally and calmly after weighing all the pros and cons? Strangely, virtually all psychology disagrees with you. There's some influential 18th century economics that backs this up, but there have been one or two bits since that sort of point out a couple of minor flaws in it. Oh, & shows that it's utterly false too....

    "I would do X in a situation that I have no direct experience of," is a comment so utterly devoid of worth & value. You think, just now (influenced by your emotional reaction to a given stimulus) that you would do X, but you are almost certainly utterly wrong.
    If you were offered the choice (having experienced both) between a minutes severe pain and a minutes severe pain followed by 30 secs of almost as severe pain, what'd you choose? You'd say you'd choose the first, right? & you'd be confident in that. But almost everyone chooses the second.... A simple example, but there are too many more to even start going into.

    What helps is understanding the why, not simply condemning it. By understanding, we can start to genuinely prevent. There are so many lessons that cycling can learn from other fields. If we, as an audience, act like reactionary fools, then these won't be learnt.
    Stopping looking at the results of the passport would get the result most folk seem to want: an illusion of non-doping. If we want doping to end and a genuinely clean sport, then we are going to dealing with moral shades of grey. If we can't do that, then we might see the end of cycling as a major pro event. Cycling's been awful. It won't instantly recover, so the interim period will involve interesting moral compromises. Deal with it....
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    dougzz wrote:
    meagain wrote:
    OK I won't say bankers (though I would strongly disagree with your assertion). How about Civil Servants?

    ...... awaits the arrival of Rich

    Civil servants? What have we done? I don't think I've ever had my morals compromised or dreams crushed - not that either were ever particularly prominent anyway. Having a sleep and playing Angry Birds on a Friday afternoon may offend your moral code, but you're on the outside, you don't know what it's like, the incredible lack of pressure put on me.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • itisaboutthebike
    itisaboutthebike Posts: 1,120
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19921705

    He'll end up in jail..........................which is where he should go for a while.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19931026

    Never mind resign..............he/Mctwat and the UCI need a seperate investigation.

    The ProTour teams need to make a stance a refuse to have anything to do with the UCI until Vergruggen/Mctwat are renoved and face charges themselves.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    itisaboutthebike wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19921705

    He'll end up in jail..........................which is where he should go for a while.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19931026

    Never mind resign..............he/Mctwat and the UCI need a seperate investigation.

    The ProTour teams need to make a stance a refuse to have anything to do with the UCI until Vergruggen/Mctwat are renoved and face charges themselves.

    1. Armstrong is as likely to see the inside of jail cell as Jimmy Saville.

    2. Before you clamour for McQuaid's removal, work out who the genuine alterative's might be.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Yup, us poor civil servants. Retire at 60 on full pension with loadsa money to spend on bikes and time to ride and read huge flipping usada documents ... Tuf life
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    RichN95 wrote:
    dougzz wrote:
    meagain wrote:
    OK I won't say bankers (though I would strongly disagree with your assertion). How about Civil Servants?

    ...... awaits the arrival of Rich

    Civil servants? What have we done? I don't think I've ever had my morals compromised or dreams crushed - not that either were ever particularly prominent anyway. Having a sleep and playing Angry Birds on a Friday afternoon may offend your moral code, but you're on the outside, you don't know what it's like, the incredible lack of pressure put on me.

    This was a great post...I loved "having a sleep" on a Friday afternoon. Long may that flag wave.

    I actually did laugh out loud.
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    America: A doping nation

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/opini ... share&_r=0

    Amgen and Johnson & Johnson began trying to expand the uses of their energy-boosting drugs to include treatment for fatigue, depression and quality-of-life issues. Commercials depicted old, slow-moving people who, after a shot of Procrit, displayed a zest for life, and a young cancer patient, who after an EPO injection happily returned to work.

    The aggressive marketing worked. Soon, exhausted but otherwise healthy people were begging doctors for a shot of what one Amgen executive called “red juice.”


    You can see how people there may be indifferent to the Armstrong case not only because cycling is a minority sport, but because pepping yourself up with anything from Red Bull to "red juice" seems normal.
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    Cavendish on Sky Sports news - NO mention of Armstrong by name...If cycling puts the time and money into catching cheats we will. Eh so howcome cycling did not catch them then... Maybe being cynical here Cavendish with his NIKE cap and t-shirt on mmmmm the day after nike stands by armstrong...did someone mention sponsor money :roll:
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Sad that crap like this is churned out.
    http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/12/lance- ... t-to-dope/

    Do it, do it do it http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/ ... N120121013
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    dougzz wrote:
    Sad that crap like this is churned out.
    http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/12/lance- ... t-to-dope/
    But great to see the comments below it. Very little support and its the court of public opinion that counts over there.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,726
    Lance may well have to get over his recent phobia of interrogation and answering questions.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 62965.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... .html?_r=0

    Looks as if he's going to be too busy to move on.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    It also suggests Hincapie is going to spend a fair amount of time in court as a witness for the prosecution. LA's lawyers will then have to try and demolish him and other witnesses. Interesting times.

    It does seem unjust that Hincapie has got away with hardly any sanction even though he is almost as culpable as LA, but if that is the price for the truth to be completely public then so be it.
  • fidgetyphil
    fidgetyphil Posts: 80
    Don't know if this has been posted, but worth a read:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19930514

    You have probably never heard of Scott Mercier, a little-known former professional cyclist.

    Yet his name came up time and time again during the United States Anti-Doping Agency's (Usada) investigation into Lance Armstrong and the US Postal team.

    So Travis Tygart, Usada's crusading chief executive, knew he needed to track Mercier down and talk to him.

    "I got this call, out of the blue, and thought it must be a joke," remembers Mercier, now a financial adviser living in Grand Junction, Colorado.

    "Travis said 'I want to thank you. And I want to find out why you were able to do what no-one else could'."
    Scott Mercier

    Mercier admits he's often wondered "where would I have ended up" if he had have doped

    Because Mercier, 44, was the US Postal rider who resisted the pressure to dope.

    To do so, he had to turn down the offer of a new contract with the team and quit the sport he loved.     [/i]
  • tarzan13
    tarzan13 Posts: 78
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Lance may well have to get over his recent phobia of interrogation and answering questions.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 62965.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... .html?_r=0

    Looks as if he's going to be too busy to move on.

    Interesting quote by LA's lawyer in one of the above articles:
    Armstrong has vehemently denied doping throughout his career. Timothy J. Herman, one of his lawyers, said the terms of the 2006 settlement prevent S.C.A. from reopening the case.

    “The full and final release that SCA signed put this to bed long ago,” Herman wrote in an e-mail. “SCA agreed it could never challenge or appeal the award anyway or anyhow — ever.”
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    dougzz wrote:
    Sad that crap like this is churned out.
    http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/12/lance- ... t-to-dope/
    But great to see the comments below it. Very little support and its the court of public opinion that counts over there.


    "You sir are nothing more than a cheerleader with a laptop"
  • Rigga
    Rigga Posts: 939
    fidgetyphil wrote:
    Don't know if this has been posted, but worth a read:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19930514

    You have probably never heard of Scott Mercier, a little-known former professional cyclist.

    Yet his name came up time and time again during the United States Anti-Doping Agency's (Usada) investigation into Lance Armstrong and the US Postal team.

    So Travis Tygart, Usada's crusading chief executive, knew he needed to track Mercier down and talk to him.

    "I got this call, out of the blue, and thought it must be a joke," remembers Mercier, now a financial adviser living in Grand Junction, Colorado.

    "Travis said 'I want to thank you. And I want to find out why you were able to do what no-one else could'."
    Scott Mercier

    Mercier admits he's often wondered "where would I have ended up" if he had have doped

    Because Mercier, 44, was the US Postal rider who resisted the pressure to dope.

    To do so, he had to turn down the offer of a new contract with the team and quit the sport he loved.     [/i]

    That's a great read, thanks.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    dougzz wrote:
    Sad that crap like this is churned out.
    http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/12/lance- ... t-to-dope/
    But great to see the comments below it. Very little support and its the court of public opinion that counts over there.
    Interesting to see that the 'sponsored links' under the article include Scientology - that the sort of company (won't call it a religion) which associate with this sort of journalism ?
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    tarzan13 wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Lance may well have to get over his recent phobia of interrogation and answering questions.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 62965.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... .html?_r=0

    Looks as if he's going to be too busy to move on.

    Interesting quote by LA's lawyer in one of the above articles:
    Armstrong has vehemently denied doping throughout his career. Timothy J. Herman, one of his lawyers, said the terms of the 2006 settlement prevent S.C.A. from reopening the case.

    “The full and final release that SCA signed put this to bed long ago,” Herman wrote in an e-mail. “SCA agreed it could never challenge or appeal the award anyway or anyhow — ever.”

    Bit of a shame if that is true.

    The sad thing is a rider like LA with his personality could have made a real difference if he stood up and exposed the doping culture at the time and how wrong it was.
  • fidgetyphil
    fidgetyphil Posts: 80
    sherer wrote:
    tarzan13 wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Lance may well have to get over his recent phobia of interrogation and answering questions.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 62965.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... .html?_r=0

    Looks as if he's going to be too busy to move on.

    Interesting quote by LA's lawyer in one of the above articles:
    Armstrong has vehemently denied doping throughout his career. Timothy J. Herman, one of his lawyers, said the terms of the 2006 settlement prevent S.C.A. from reopening the case.

    “The full and final release that SCA signed put this to bed long ago,” Herman wrote in an e-mail. “SCA agreed it could never challenge or appeal the award anyway or anyhow — ever.”

    Bit of a shame if that is true.

    The sad thing is a rider like LA with his personality could have made a real difference if he stood up and exposed the doping culture at the time and how wrong it was.

    Yes but just afterwards it says

    Tillotson said Armstrong’s lies, as outlined in the agency’s report, had changed the understanding that was reached through arbitration. He acknowledged that any decision on recourse will rest with an arbitrator. The agency’s move to strip Armstrong of his seven Tour de France titles because of doping, Tillotson said, will boost the company’s prospects of recovering its money.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Anyone posted this yet?

    http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/10/12/34 ... in-english
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    iainf72 wrote:
    Anyone posted this yet?

    http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/10/12/34 ... in-english

    No. I just gave Popovych a call but he didn't want to make a comment on the article.

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    There are a couple of riders popping up that I have never heard of. That article above was good, thanks. Makes me think that some of these riders could have simply been using Ferrari for training plans - which by all accounts be does very well. Obv I am not naieve and understand that most of them would be doped but just associating with him doesn't necessarily mean they took the next step.

    The other thing is that Ferrari must be minted. Any one know a rough estimate of his worth?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    frenchfighter wrote:
    There are a couple of riders popping up that I have never heard of. That article above was good, thanks. Makes me think that some of these riders could have simply been using Ferrari for training plans - which by all accounts be does very well. Obv I am not naieve and understand that most of them would be doped but just associating with him doesn't necessarily mean they took the next step.

    The other thing is that Ferrari must be minted. Any one know a rough estimate of his worth?

    Well LA gave him 1 million dollars I think, in bank transfers and that's without the under the table cash amounts he gave him as well. Add in a few other top riders paying the same and he can see why he keeps on at this
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Matt White has fallen on his sword and admitted he was part of it.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • k-dog
    k-dog Posts: 1,652
    sherer wrote:
    tarzan13 wrote:
    The sad thing is a rider like LA with his personality could have made a real difference if he stood up and exposed the doping culture at the time and how wrong it was.

    I'm not sure about that - if he wasn't winning he would just be another guy. You wouldn't see the same force of personality - just a guy moaning about not being able to keep up - it would sound a bit like Greg L at the end of his career - but without the previous level of success.
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Gee wiz. There must be more reformed dopers in Garmin at one point or another than any other team...
    Contador is the Greatest
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    iainf72 wrote:
    Matt White has fallen on his sword and admitted he was part of it.

    any links to this yet Iain ?
  • plectrum
    plectrum Posts: 225
    Could someone wise let me know why Armstrong went from Motorola to Cofidis then to Postal and not direct to Postal as Hincapie did.

    Also as prior to this and whilst Armstrong was on Cofidis, Hincapie was doping on the Postal team under Dr. C...(I cant remember the name) how is Armstrong to blame for initiating the strategy at Postal?

    Certainly he was highly influential and was prior connected via Motorola but the USADA clearly state Postal was all down to Armstrong and he was the primary figure in misusing tax payers money? If endemic doping programs were in palce prior to Armstrong's arrival as is within the testimony of .... That dude who was friends with Hincapie then how is it portrayed that Armstrong was behind it all.

    JUST A QUESTION - DONT KILL ME! :)
  • le_patron
    le_patron Posts: 494
    It's turning into an avalanche. Hopefully Yates next.

    I don't know how LA can look an interviewer in the eye any more. Forget the doping and gangster behaviour, his continuing to protest his innocence is getting to the point where sponsors and charities should just drop him for being a total and utter loon.
  • le_patron
    le_patron Posts: 494
    plectrum wrote:
    Could someone wise let me know why Armstrong went from Motorola to Cofidis then to Postal and not direct to Postal as Hincapie did.

    According to Hamilton's book, Weisel and Armstrong didn't get on well first time round, their borderline psycho personalities too similar suspect.

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