Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

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  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    It is interesting his weight is 156 lbs and 5ft 8. Small and
    stalky...defo a classic winner and 1 week GCer ..maybe a GT GC
    podium but not more if those stats are accurate
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    dennisn wrote:
    So how do people become GT racers? Sounds as if you're saying that no one who wins a one day race is capable of moving up, so to speak, and becoming a GT guy. I thought that's how it worked. You ride bikes as a kid, it gets in your blood, you win a few local races, then you win some on the national level, some pro team takes a chance on you, you win a few Euro races, the team decides you're ready to try a stage race. All drugging aside, isn't that how it works?
    What's so hard about understanding someone improving as an athlete? Happens all the time, in all sports, and doesn't always mean doping. Well, maybe to you it does.

    Dennis, and prior to the pharma-era is was unprecendented that so-so GT riders suddenly became GT-winners. Merckx, Hinault, Fignon were finishing top-10 from the off.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Monty Dog wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    So how do people become GT racers? Sounds as if you're saying that no one who wins a one day race is capable of moving up, so to speak, and becoming a GT guy. I thought that's how it worked. You ride bikes as a kid, it gets in your blood, you win a few local races, then you win some on the national level, some pro team takes a chance on you, you win a few Euro races, the team decides you're ready to try a stage race. All drugging aside, isn't that how it works?
    What's so hard about understanding someone improving as an athlete? Happens all the time, in all sports, and doesn't always mean doping. Well, maybe to you it does.

    Dennis, and prior to the pharma-era is was unprecendented that so-so GT riders suddenly became GT-winners. Merckx, Hinault, Fignon were finishing top-10 from the off.

    Yes, but aren't all riders so-so GT riders until they become top 10? You make it sound as if the newer riders are great from day one, simply because of drugs and nothing else. As for Merckx, Hinault, Fignon, are you saying that these guys simply appeared out of nowhere and won the TDF? That they didn't develope and hone their skills in any kind of lower level racing earlier in their careers? They simply hopped on a bike one day and bingo GT winner?

    Also it sounds as if you're saying that anyone who, in "the pharma-era", won a big stage race was / is a doper?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Den

    What people are saying is that if you're a GT guy, you show that ability early in your career. Yes, you develop as a rider but if you take Andy Schleck as a an example - First grand Tour he finished 2nd.

    A chunk of those guys do win their first grand tour too.

    And yes, basically in the pharma era, I can't think of a grand tour that wasn't won by a doper.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    iainf72 wrote:
    Den
    What people are saying is that if you're a GT guy, you show that ability early in your career. Yes, you develop as a rider but if you take Andy Schleck as a an example - First grand Tour he finished 2nd.
    A chunk of those guys do win their first grand tour too.

    I was just commenting that a ton of preparation goes into the making of a pro athlete. From the earliest days that he first sat on a bike to that GT win or any pro win.
    What are the stats on first time major GT winners?
    Or even first time pro race winners? I'm thinking that there are very few first time pro race winners but I do recall one or two GT first timers. Names elude me.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    iainf72 wrote:
    Den

    What people are saying is that if you're a GT guy, you show that ability early in your career. Yes, you develop as a rider but if you take Andy Schleck as a an example - First grand Tour he finished 2nd.

    A chunk of those guys do win their first grand tour too.

    And yes, basically in the pharma era, I can't think of a grand tour that wasn't won by a doper.


    but wigggins didnt show as a gt contender early in his career (like Armstrong). does that make him a doper too? confused.com over here
  • Nick Fitt
    Nick Fitt Posts: 381
    iainf72 wrote:
    Anyone who doesn't think he was a very good cyclist before the cancer is deluding themselves.

    He was doping Ianf72, stop deluding yourself, from Junior through 7-Eleven and Motorola, he has ridden barely a mile sober, Happy Christmas mate, Santa is on his way!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Anyone who doesn't think he was a very good cyclist before the cancer is deluding themselves.

    He was doping Ianf72, stop deluding yourself, from Junior through 7-Eleven and Motorola, he has ridden barely a mile sober, Happy Christmas mate, Santa is on his way!

    I'm thinking that statement sort of flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that doping helps but is not the main instrument of success. Anyone in the pro cycling ranks is what I would term a "very good cyclist". I think that's self evident. To to give all the credit to drugs as the only thing that made any difference at all in someones career is pretty shortsighted IMHO. "iain72" saying LA was a very good cyclist is right on the money. Yes, he was a cyclist that used drugs but he was also a very good cyclist. I can understand why you might not like him but you're deluding yourself about his abilities to pedal a bike.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Lance was nothing ordinary. He was mediocore in pretty much every discipline that he, while having cancer, later became the best of the best in. The training facilities at that hospital must have been state of the art, eh?...
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ThomThom wrote:
    Lance was nothing ordinary. He was mediocore in pretty much every discipline that he, while having cancer, later became the best of the best in. The training facilities at that hospital must have been state of the art, eh?...

    Before he had cancer he was signed to a pro contract and raced in the TDF. Very few people in the world get to the level that a TDF team will consider them as good enough to race. What you're saying seems to be that unless these riders come in first that they are simply mediocre. No, not the case at all. Pro riders, doped or not, are the best of the best. Even the ones who don't score a TDF win are tremendous riders. You and I are mediocre / ordinary riders, and that's just me being very, very nice about it.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    dennisn, what..?

    I'm comparing him to the rest of the pro riders in the peloton. Why on earth would I compare him to an employee who rides his bike to work every morning?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ThomThom wrote:
    dennisn, what..?

    I'm comparing him to the rest of the pro riders in the peloton. Why on earth would I compare him to an employee who rides his bike to work every morning?

    Right, why would you? :wink:
    To call any pro rider mediocre, even when comparing them to each other, baffles me.
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    Umm, so now you can't differentiate between Pro riders, they are all just great...that is ridiculous and proves you are here to troll. Sport is the method by which we can see the differences between sportsmen. There are plenty of mediocre sportsmen, just like there are mediocre lawyers and mediocre politicians.

    Since you don't believe in sport you should probably find another forum.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Anyone who doesn't think he was a very good cyclist before the cancer is deluding themselves.

    He was doping Ianf72, stop deluding yourself, from Junior through 7-Eleven and Motorola, he has ridden barely a mile sober, Happy Christmas mate, Santa is on his way!


    The Hincapie affidavit strongly indicates Lance ARmstrong only went onto powerful drugs in 1994. Pre EPO/Transfusion it was minor strength doping.

    Re the Lemond theory on grand tour talents showing it young..is it fair to hold a 4km pursuiter to this? I think Lemond might have had in mind riders of a road background and not track pursuiters transition into stage racing mid 20s. If Lemond is right , then that means we are pointing the finger at Wiggo.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I don't know how you show your grand tour talents young these days. Young talented riders these days are protected for a fair amount of time before they are blooded in GT racing. Sky/GB's approach seemsto be a mix of track and road and it appears that success in one does not preclude success in the other take Wiggo/thomas and Kennaugh as examples.

    I don't think LeMond's theory holds true in modern rider development.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    ThomThom wrote:
    dennisn, what..?

    I'm comparing him to the rest of the pro riders in the peloton. Why on earth would I compare him to an employee who rides his bike to work every morning?

    He was a previous World Champion and had won two stages of the TDF and San Sebastien before Cancer ,to call that mediocre is quite frankly nonsensical.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited December 2012
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I don't know how you show your grand tour talents young these days. Young talented riders these days are protected for a fair amount of time before they are blooded in GT racing. Sky/GB's approach seemsto be a mix of track and road and it appears that success in one does not preclude success in the other take Wiggo/thomas and Kennaugh as examples.

    I don't think LeMond's theory holds true in modern rider development.


    I was about to post something similar, YP - and I think that OGE will be following a similar path as Sky with some of their trackies/roadies like Cameron Meyer. Things have changed/evolved since Lemond rode. In his 'Cyclonomics' essay in The Cycling Anthology, Daniel Friebe writes about how certain teams are changing the way that successful teams are approaching cycling, and it includes the approach of developing GT-winning riders - rather than them springing from the womb ready to stun the world with their first Tour.
  • symo
    symo Posts: 1,743
    Sunday Times want their money back!!!!
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    we are the proud, the few, Descendents.

    Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I don't know how you show your grand tour talents young these days. Young talented riders these days are protected for a fair amount of time before they are blooded in GT racing. Sky/GB's approach seemsto be a mix of track and road and it appears that success in one does not preclude success in the other take Wiggo/thomas and Kennaugh as examples.

    I don't think LeMond's theory holds true in modern rider development.


    I was about to post something similar, YP - and I think that OGE will be following a similar path as Sky with some of their trackies/roadies like Cameron Meyer. Things have changed/evolved since Lemond rode. In his 'Cyclonomics' essay in The Cycling Anthology, Daniel Friebe writes about how certain teams are changing the way that successful teams are approaching cycling, and it includes the approach of developing GT-winning riders - rather than them springing from the womb ready to stun the world with their first Tour.


    I was going to mention the Australian "facsimilie" in my original post RR! I've just forced a conversation with Mrs Peril on this issue and she says "fusion cycling" (i.e tailored track and road) is the way forward. I quite liked that terminology.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Nick Fitt
    Nick Fitt Posts: 381
    Moray Gub wrote:
    He was a previous World Champion and had won two stages of the TDF and San Sebastien before Cancer ,to call
    that mediocre is quite frankly nonsensical.

    On dope mate. Everything he achieved from the Junior team onwards is rubbished by the fact he was on drugs.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    He was a previous World Champion and had won two stages of the TDF and San Sebastien before Cancer ,to call
    that mediocre is quite frankly nonsensical.

    On dope mate. Everything he achieved from the Junior team onwards is rubbished by the fact he was on drugs.

    Talk about me trolling. That was a classic one. Well done Nick. :roll:
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    I had a drink last night with someone who works for Chubb Insurance (a minor party to the SCA madness) and he was absolutely drooling about the legal possibilities of the USADA ruling (he's a lawyer from Texas).

    He knew nothing about cycling, but was very convinced that LA would settle or he would be on the losing end in court.

    Of course, all of this means nothing, but it was very interesting to listen to someone discuss LA from a very different angle.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Bakunin wrote:
    I had a drink last night with someone who works for Chubb Insurance (a minor party to the SCA madness) and he was absolutely drooling about the legal possibilities of the USADA ruling (he's a lawyer from Texas).

    He knew nothing about cycling, but was very convinced that LA would settle or he would be on the losing end in court.

    Of course, all of this means nothing, but it was very interesting to listen to someone discuss LA from a very different angle.

    I'm thinking that even lawyers on the losing side are winners. If you get my meaning. :wink:
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    dennisn wrote:
    Bakunin wrote:
    I had a drink last night with someone who works for Chubb Insurance (a minor party to the SCA madness) and he was absolutely drooling about the legal possibilities of the USADA ruling (he's a lawyer from Texas).

    He knew nothing about cycling, but was very convinced that LA would settle or he would be on the losing end in court.

    Of course, all of this means nothing, but it was very interesting to listen to someone discuss LA from a very different angle.

    I'm thinking that even lawyers on the losing side are winners. If you get my meaning. :wink:

    I hear you -- they seem to make out either way.

    It was strange to hear someone talk about LA in terms of contracts.
  • Nick Fitt
    Nick Fitt Posts: 381
    symo wrote:
    Sunday Times want their money back!!!!

    I wonder if this will start the landslide?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Bakunin wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Bakunin wrote:
    I had a drink last night with someone who works for Chubb Insurance (a minor party to the SCA madness) and he was absolutely drooling about the legal possibilities of the USADA ruling (he's a lawyer from Texas).

    He knew nothing about cycling, but was very convinced that LA would settle or he would be on the losing end in court.

    Of course, all of this means nothing, but it was very interesting to listen to someone discuss LA from a very different angle.

    I'm thinking that even lawyers on the losing side are winners. If you get my meaning. :wink:

    I hear you -- they seem to make out either way.

    It was strange to hear someone talk about LA in terms of contracts.

    I'm guessing that all this doping in sports is really a good thing for lawyers. Now athletes are going to have be more wary of all the organizations(doping agencies) that are out to get them. These agencies will have to prove they are worth the money spent and that means finding people who dope. While this is something of a noble idea it's not beyond the scope of belief that the ADA's can become just, if not more, corrupt than the people they are paid to find. Lots of money pours into cycling and its teams and lots of money pours into all the ADA organizations. Lots of money flying around = corruption and cheating to get some of it = lawyers playground.
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    ^ A little too cynical for me. Yeah, money causes people to do crazy stuff -- but other people just think sport should be fair and they do the best they can to make it so.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Bakunin wrote:
    ^ A little too cynical for me. Yeah, money causes people to do crazy stuff -- but other people just think sport should be fair and they do the best they can to make it so.

    Absolutely. Only problem is that you won't find 170 pages of forum thread about the good guys. All that doping, money, and cheating makes for much better and more exciting reading.
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    Chubb companies - always makes me smile. Chubb locks are my favourite: sounds like an illegal wrestling move.
    Talking of legal matters
    dennisn wrote:

    I'm guessing that all this doping in sports is really a good thing for lawyers

    What area of modern life is not a "good thing for lawyers"? They're like a societal version of mould: crucial for maintaining certain key functions, but likely to decompose everything if left unchecked.

    Happy Christmas Dennis, you splendid old tosspot.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Chubb companies - always makes me smile. Chubb locks are my favourite: sounds like an illegal wrestling move.
    Talking of legal matters
    dennisn wrote:

    I'm guessing that all this doping in sports is really a good thing for lawyers

    What area of modern life is not a "good thing for lawyers"? They're like a societal version of mould: crucial for maintaining certain key functions, but likely to decompose everything if left unchecked.

    Happy Christmas Dennis, you splendid old tosspot.

    And a happy holidays(politically correct) to all of you "over there". I would have used a name (e.g. England, Great Britain) instead of over there but didn't want to start a flame war over the correct wording or flags. :wink:

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