Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped
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Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?
After Festina there was a chance to clean up cycling - many French teams made an effort, the EPO positives for the 99 TdF were fairly few. At that point two things happen: firstly, doping becomes a more black and white issue, if you're doping you're actually fighting against efforts to clean up, and secondly, if you get caught, with people already looking at cycling as a dirty sport, you give cycling a kick in the balls.
This all makes doping post Festina an aggravated offence. It doesn't mean it was all OK, pre Festina, but there are good reasons it was worse afterwards. It's also why with each doping scandal we get hit by the severity of the offence increases. Anyone caught doping now, after all we've been through, should be hounded from the sport for fucking it up for everyone.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I take the Doctor's point though. Before EPO, doping was on an entirely different, smaller scale - and the drugs of choice werent such game-changers. Then EPO and pre-Festina it was an almighty free-for-all. Post-Festina at least some tried to go clean (we think) e.g. FDJ. Even Ulrich has been quoted as saying that in 99 a lot of teams had been scared silly but then saw Armstrong and USPS getting away with it and it was back on the juice big stylie.0
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deejay wrote:
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.
How is that relevant to my argument?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:I take the Doctor's point though. Before EPO, doping was on an entirely different, smaller scale - and the drugs of choice werent such game-changers. Then EPO and pre-Festina it was an almighty free-for-all. Post-Festina at least some tried to go clean (we think) e.g. FDJ. Even Ulrich has been quoted as saying that in 99 a lot of teams had been scared silly but then saw Armstrong and USPS getting away with it and it was back on the juice big stylie.
I think it's best take this point with a pinch of salt, let's be honest, whilst some were probably scared by festina, there are always going to be athletes willing to put up with the small risk in getting caught. Plus it's in the interests of Ullrich and so on to try and blame their doping on the actions of Lance.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:.......and celebrate only those we know to be clean, .......
I'm sorry, but just how do "we" know who those people are? Will there be some sort of commission that hands down a "clean" report from on high? Or will it be decided by something akin to the Bike Radar forum? You know, by the people who know all about these things because they read it on the internet?0 -
Jez mon wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:I take the Doctor's point though. Before EPO, doping was on an entirely different, smaller scale - and the drugs of choice werent such game-changers. Then EPO and pre-Festina it was an almighty free-for-all. Post-Festina at least some tried to go clean (we think) e.g. FDJ. Even Ulrich has been quoted as saying that in 99 a lot of teams had been scared silly but then saw Armstrong and USPS getting away with it and it was back on the juice big stylie.
I think it's best take this point with a pinch of salt, let's be honest, whilst some were probably scared by festina, there are always going to be athletes willing to put up with the small risk in getting caught. Plus it's in the interests of Ullrich and so on to try and blame their doping on the actions of Lance.
Whether or not you - or anyone else - believes Ullrich, there were some teams trying to clean up post-Festina. Which is the main point.
For myself, to cite just one rider as an example, I dont really care about Kelly's pill-taking or his positives. It doesnt colour how I regard him as one of the greats of the last 30 years. But Armstrong...meh0 -
Yes I am (I did say that) and I apologise for my Ignorance regarding the The Church of Ireland.TailWindHome wrote:I didn't ask you anything about religion.
Your knowledge is appallingly limited. So limited that you don't even know that the Church of Ireland IS a protestant church.deejay wrote:In my limited knowledge I thought that 85% in Ulster were Protestants who had nothing to do with the Church of Ireland.
Oh. I think I get it, you are very very confused about Irish/British politics.deejay wrote:All I know is the dumb b*stards put a bomb in Victoria Station to blow up at 7am when thousands of ordinary working class people were struggling to get to work.
These USA Funded Terrorists, attack ordinary people who still don't know why their livelihoods are disrupted by gutless morons.
I shall now look at the Union Flag in a different light but I still don't have one.
We got so used to dodging bombs and the media going on about Prodies and Catholics that we lost interest.
I lost a couple of casual friends at Victoria on their way to work from Croydon.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I don't agree with your cut-off point as T Mobile continued long after. :roll:No tA Doctor wrote:deejay wrote:
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.
How is that relevant to my argument?Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
deejay wrote:
I don't agree with your cut-off point as T Mobile continued long after. :roll:No tA Doctor wrote:deejay wrote:
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.
How is that relevant to my argument?
Then you clearly haven't understood my argument.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
deejay wrote:
I don't agree with your cut-off point as T Mobile continued long after. :roll:No tA Doctor wrote:deejay wrote:
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.
How is that relevant to my argument?
Post-Festina there was a 2-speed peloton. Does that help to make the Doctor's point (and mine) clearer?0 -
deejay wrote:
I don't agree with your cut-off point as T Mobile continued long after. :roll:No tA Doctor wrote:deejay wrote:
No Sir, because Telekom (T Mobile) continued with the same drugs that Festina got from Germany to level the playing field with them in 1998.No tA Doctor wrote:Dave, do you not think Festina provides an interesting moral cut-off point?.
How is that relevant to my argument?
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I look forward to your finding some rubbish about Armstrong being a No 1 in 1995/6 as there is none. (except perhaps in the Fanboys magazines)Dave_1 wrote:
Deejay, I think it is naive to distinguish Jalabert as cleaner than Armstrong..Jalabert calls him a great champion still...speaks volumes. I will retract the Armstrong UCI number 1 if I can't find it soon.deejay wrote:
I keep trying to get this thread back on "Topic"deejay wrote:Now this post should be about (and I quote Dave_1) a Scumbag from Texas and him being at the start of the 1996 season the World number 1 on "Points" he says.
How ridiculous can you get. ??
Why do you keep going on about Jalabert because all I stated was "He was World number 1 in 1995/6" (four times) and nothing else.
If as you say Jalabert was a druggy then he has not been erased from the records like your Idol has and you have to make up fiction about his very few palmares. So keep looking. How ridiculous can you get. ??
By the way I was on the Muur de HUY to see him win the 1996 La Fleche Wallonne and in Liege 94, & 96 for his 2nd places.
I had forgotten the 94 place as I was rather excited to have won money on the winner when Rominger punctured.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Oh yes rather.Richmond Racer wrote:Post-Festina there was a 2-speed peloton. Does that help to make the Doctor's point (and mine) clearer?
That's what this thread is all about. !
The records show 98 peloton winner Marco Pantani and then Post Festina seven years as VOID with T Mobile in 2nd place.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I've just googled Griffin to find out what the scotsman meant.Moray Gub wrote:dennisn wrote:This flag waving seems really serious?
Only to a bunch of brain dead and deluded idiots who worship at the altar of Nick Geadriffin.
So that goes right over my head as it seems to be relevant only to moray gub who knows about these things.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I belong to a small racing club here in Toledo, Ohio and have been a member for quite some time(since the 70's).
In this time I know for a fact that I have taken a diruretic(daily - for blood pressure), the occasional steroid shot(of various drug types) for muscle pulls, tears, spasm's, aches and pains, etc. I've most likely taken more than a few other things deemed illegal by most anti doping agencies. And I'm pretty sure I've ingested more than my share of "tainted" food and supplements.
As for the BP meds, well it's either take them or possibly "stroke out". I choose take. Little did I know way back when I started that I was taking some sort of forbidden substance.
As for the steroids, it was a case of either take them or live in extreme pain. Once again I choose take. They worked and I healed quicker. However, it never seemed to help my pathetic attempts at racing. Still, it was cheating in the strict sense.
As for the ingesting of "tainted" food and supplements I offer no apologies or excuses. If anyone feels I cheated in this area, well, I don't care, so deal with it.
I only bring this up because there seems to be a lot of talk about demands for a clean sport. Now here I am, a racer of very little, or no, fame yet I most likely wouldn't and or couldn't pass a drug test. I would question whether it's even possible to find ANYONE out there who is clean in the strict, line in the sand, sense. Not only is taking these things something of a crime but even the hint(without proof) is cause for certain people to become very self righteous, when they themselves most likely wouldn't stand up to any sort of real scrutiny.0 -
dennisn wrote:I belong to a small racing club here in Toledo, Ohio and have been a member for quite some time(since the 70's).
In this time I know for a fact that I have taken a diruretic(daily - for blood pressure), the occasional steroid shot(of various drug types) for muscle pulls, tears, spasm's, aches and pains, etc. I've most likely taken more than a few other things deemed illegal by most anti doping agencies. And I'm pretty sure I've ingested more than my share of "tainted" food and supplements.
As for the BP meds, well it's either take them or possibly "stroke out". I choose take. Little did I know way back when I started that I was taking some sort of forbidden substance.
As for the steroids, it was a case of either take them or live in extreme pain. Once again I choose take. They worked and I healed quicker. However, it never seemed to help my pathetic attempts at racing. Still, it was cheating in the strict sense.
As for the ingesting of "tainted" food and supplements I offer no apologies or excuses. If anyone feels I cheated in this area, well, I don't care, so deal with it.
I only bring this up because there seems to be a lot of talk about demands for a clean sport. Now here I am, a racer of very little, or no, fame yet I most likely wouldn't and or couldn't pass a drug test. I would question whether it's even possible to find ANYONE out there who is clean in the strict, line in the sand, sense. Not only is taking these things something of a crime but even the hint(without proof) is cause for certain people to become very self righteous, when they themselves most likely wouldn't stand up to any sort of real scrutiny.
As i'm sure you are aware Dennis can can get a TUE that allows you to take banned substances if you need them for your health.0 -
Difference is, dennis, you're riding as an amateur. You're not making a living from cycling, you're not trying to or getting sponsorship (and competing against other pros for that sponsorship), you're not competing against other pros for a share of the financial pie. You didnt sign up to the pro 'contract' that includes avoiding all the banned substances, being subject to the relevant tests, accepting that 'athletes' liabaility clause, and more lately plugging into the ADAMS system where the AD testers can find you for 1 hour every 24 hours for the next 3 months.
If you beat your clubmates on a club 10 - meh...
Problem is that there's been a good few amateurs testing positively in the US (elsewhere too, I'm sure - I just know of the recent guys in the US)
And yeah, you could try for a TUE for certain things0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Difference is, dennis, you're riding as an amateur. You're not making a living from cycling, you're not trying to or getting sponsorship, you're not competing against other pros for a share of the financial pie. You didnt sign up to the pro 'contract' that includes avoiding all the banned substances, being subject to the relevant tests, and more lately updating the ADAMS system so that the AD testers know where to find you for 1 hour every 24 hours for the next 3 months.
If you beat your clubmates on a club 10 - meh...
Problem is that there's been a good few amateurs testing positively in the US ( elsewhere too, I'm sure - I just know of the recent guys in the US.
I know what you're saying and I agree. I only made the post to sort of argue the point of where are you going to find these squeaky clean people? You might find a few but most likely not enough for a race.
There are cheating riders and people trying to catch the cheaters. The ones trying to catch them are most likely always going to be a little behind the curve and always playing catch up. As near as I can tell this is the way it is and it will always be that way. No one has offered any other options. C'mon, people will cheat at the casino blackjack table, run the risk of getting caught(very high), and sent to prison, all for a whole lot less money than a pro athlete can make if he's on the top of his game(doping or not). Lots of money flying around = people will to cheat to grab a share.
And they likely don't care if you and I like it or not.0 -
Deejay, on p 167 you say Jalabert was a REAL all rounder...explain.
I see your flag comments by your avatar and think
you are a England Defence League/UKIP/National Front type supporter by the look of your views.0 -
Jalabert has wins throughout the year from San Remo to Lombardy and in all GT's, Monuments, and points class, KOM class, TT.Dave_1 wrote:Deejay, on p 167 you say Jalabert was a REAL all rounder...explain.
I see your flag comments by your avatar and think
you are a England Defence League/UKIP/National Front type supporter by the look of your views.
Enough said or maybe just to say a Real Allrounder. Doh.
Certainly not a seven week wonder for seven years which suited me to be at the Dauphine with great pleasure to see Iban Mayo take your fanboy apart.
No need to bring drugs in here because you wouldn't know where to stop but needless to say that only one of them is "Erased". Oh yes the Texas Dummy that now has very few Palmares. :roll:
I've worn an England Flag for forty years proudly and long before any of those people came along.
What did Nelson say. ?? Go on I dare you.
Where is this place called Britain, I can't find it.
I live on the Island of "GREAT BRITAIN" but where is this Britain. ??Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
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deejay wrote:
Jalabert has wins throughout the year from San Remo to Lombardy and in all GT's, Monuments, and points class, KOM class, TT.Dave_1 wrote:Deejay, on p 167 you say Jalabert was a REAL all rounder...explain.
I see your flag comments by your avatar and think
you are a England Defence League/UKIP/National Front type supporter by the look of your views.
Enough said or maybe just to say a Real Allrounder. Doh.
Certainly not a seven week wonder for seven years which suited me to be at the Dauphine with great pleasure to see Iban Mayo take your fanboy apart.
No need to bring drugs in here because you wouldn't know where to stop but needless to say that only one of them is "Erased". Oh yes the Texas Dummy that now has very few Palmares. :roll:
I've worn an England Flag for forty years proudly and long before any of those people came along.
What did Nelson say. ?? Go on I dare you.
Where is this place called Britain, I can't find it.
I live on the Island of "GREAT BRITAIN" but where is this Britain. ??
Don't forget that much like LA who went from one day rider who can get the odd stage in a Grand Tour, Jaja went from one day rider and points jersey winner to KOM winner and seemingly someone who could win any race going. Wonder how he made that transformation and what team he rode for when he did it0 -
Deejay, if you insist on calling yourself Anglo-Saxon then which is it to be? Angle or Saxon? Also the area which is now called London would have fallen under the flag of Mercia which was mostly blue. I apologise for being a pedant in advance.0
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And Deejay, you know you are related to every African and Asian person on the planet if you go far back enough? It is your kind of jingoistic nonsense which has made the George Cross a symbol of bigotry and a banner for the small minded. How do you feel about mass immigration into your beloved England?0
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I do wonder if Deejay dresses as a Beefeater or perhaps he's more skinhead England defence league supporter?
On topic http://www.usacycling.org/lance-armstrong.htm0 -
Controversial!In 1996, Lance was ranked the world's number one cyclist, competed in the Olympic Games in Atlanta, and signed a prestigious cycling contract — he was also diagnosed with advanced testicular cancer which had spread to his lungs and brain. His recovery chances were less than 50/50.I'm left handed, if that matters.0
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Anyone who doesn't think he was a very good cyclist before the cancer is deluding themselves.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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sherer wrote:.... that much like LA who went from one day rider who can get the odd stage in a Grand Tour, Jaja went from one day rider and points jersey winner to KOM winner and seemingly someone who could win any race going. Wonder how he made that transformation and what team he rode for when he did it
So how do people become GT racers? Sounds as if you're saying that no one who wins a one day race is capable of
moving up, so to speak, and becoming a GT guy. I thought that's how it worked. You ride bikes as a kid, it gets in your blood, you win a few local races, then you win some on the national level, some pro team takes a chance on you, you win a few Euro races, the team decides you're ready to try a stage race. All drugging aside, isn't that how it works?
What's so hard about understanding someone improving as an athlete? Happens all the time, in all sports, and doesn't always mean doping. Well, maybe to you it does.0
