Bring on the track events! *spoiler*

disgruntledgoat

You cna't have a flat bend, as the riders can't brake, freewheel or slow down quickly. So you need a corner that you can carry speed through, thanks to centrifugal force.

graeme_s-2

As Rick says, you can ride the banking really fast almost like you're going in a straight line. As you noted it does then open up other tactics in some of the other races as you can use it to gain speed by riding down it.

When you stand at the top of the banking and look down it, it's like looking out of a window on the 1st storey of a house looking straight down a wooden wall, it's unbelievably steep. The TV completely robs it of the sense of steepness.

I've only done a taster session at Manchester velodrome, but it's incredibly fun to ride on, if a little terrifying to start with. You don't believe you'll stay up right when you go round it to begin with!

ddraver

King Boardman was explaining during the test event that the banking is designed so that a rider going at 50km/h (30 odd mph) will be perpendicular to the track. This is true for all velodromes I think...

So, If they re going 60km they re leaning into the track even more, but during a Induvidual sprint when they re dicking around then they re leaning less steep.

Essentially it's the same as a berm on an MTB trail...

Pross

It's there to scare the s**t out of anyone turning up at their first velodrome session. Walk out of the dressing room, under the bank and look up at a timber wall. Even as an experienced cyclist the first view is daunting, it must be terrifying for people who have hardly ridden a bike but when you ride it for the first time you realise how good it is as the bike just follows it without any steering required. One other brown trouser inducing thing with it is that at low speed and with cold tyres it gets slippery, you have to use a bit of pressure on the tyres to stop yourself sliding down the bank and I have the scars to remind me!

Lichtblick

Rick, disgruntled, graeme, dd, Pross,

Thank You!

It's great to learn new stuff all the time. Apart from the banking question, I've also now learned that they can't freewheel. (Why not?) Although I think I had spotted that, when they've finished a heat or a race, they have to keep going until the bike loses momentum, (no brakes), and they just have to keep on pedalling too.

Unless one of the team crew catches them, that is.

Hope that makes sense.

ANOTHER QUESTION!

Kenny or Bauge to win the final? Which one d'you think?

rick_chasey

No brakes innit .

Have to use your legs to slow down (it's fixie innit) and that costs energy that they'd rather save - so ride around the track they will.

Bauge looks pretty epic - never really troubled, but Kenny's times are super quick. Hard to say.

Bauge probably.

Pross

They are riding a fixed wheel i.e. when the wheel is turning so are the cranks - if you freewheel you go over the bars. You also only have one gear as a result so you have to pick something you can get turning but not so small that you spin out. They also have no brakes (other than putting backward pressure on the pedals) for safety reasons. When you first try track riding all these things add to the nerves but you soon realise it isn't as bad as it sounds.

Lichtblick

Rick Chasey wrote:

No brakes innit .

Have to use your legs to slow down (it's fixie innit) and that costs energy that they'd rather save - so ride around the track they will.

Bauge looks pretty epic - never really troubled, but Kenny's times are super quick. Hard to say.

Bauge probably.

I rode a bike like that in Australia once. Hated it.

I think Bauge gets extra Ooomph from the way his trainer hugs him (possessively) round the waist while they're waiting for the heat/race to start, on the track, waiting, him up on bike, waiting, gets a man hug round his waist. Tactile stuff. None of the other teams do that.

DeadCalm

The points race in the Omnium always sucks.

Jez mon

Have to admit...not really a fan of the omnium.

Lichtblick

Your last chance to watch Bauge being cuddled by his trainer (whoever it is) coming up soon.

Jez mon

Bauge looked like he had that, Kenny was pretty amazing!

Lichtblick

So much for my theory.

Since you're all so frightfully restrained,


HOORAY! ANOTHER GOLD FOR GB CYCLISTS!!!

oldwelshman

disgruntledgoat wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

step-hent wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

Isn't it all down to the magic wheels?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/doubts- ... gic-wheels

Covering up their standard Mavic wheels whenever they're not in use would be a perfect way to distract other nations from whatever technical wizardry is actually going on.

And also a great way to distract the other nations from realising there isn't anything special about the equipment! Have always thought the Secret Squirrel club has as much psychological value as technical value. Track bikes are pretty simple - if the frame is UCI approved and the wheels are mavic standard wheels, there's very little else to tinker with apart from rider position. Possible gains are tiny (though they all help) and the gain from having your opponents think you've got it sewn up through better equipment is easily as significant...

It's like the thing with the "special" skinsuits they used un Bejing being destroyed afterwards. Guy I used to work with has one of them. He knows one of the track squad through a relative and was given a couple of skinsuits, I've seen photos of him at a fancy dress party wearing it!

Theres one hanging up above my desk... It looks to be made of the same stuff as my club one.

The ones you saw maybe the standard gb skinsuits, from what I understand the "special" ones are just locked up in Mnachester. They were made of a rubber like material.

oldwelshman

Jez mon wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The clinic is f*cking weird.

Indeed and every time I look in there, it seems to have increased in weirdness.

With regards to the British team's performance, whilst you can never completely rule out nefarious methods (in the same way you can't rule out invisible, undetectable fairies living at the bottom of the garden) I think GB is possibly the only country where the cyclists with the best natural engines get put in the track cycling stream, as opposed to the road. Should think Cancellara would be able to get some rainbow jerseys in the individual pursuit if he changed his focus (and an Olympic Gold, if it was still an event!!).

Chinny already tried and not as good as wiggo.
Not sure what you mean about largest engines being put on the track and not road, where do you think Cav, Wiggo,Thomas, Kennaugh, Rowe and a few others started? They started on the track and moved to road. Armistead did also.

oldwelshman

Fantastic sprint by Kenny, glad he won after Bauge claimed he would rather ride against Hoy as he wsa a real champion. Kennt is too cool to be wound up by such comments, probably motivated him more. Kenny has always been the more race savvy sprinter in UK and had the best against Hoy for couple of years but Bauge was best last year but Kenny has moved forward.
Come on Laura Points race was very negative but surprised she let Hammer and Whitton get a lap, I think she was recovering after the second sprint, but seems like she is marking the Aussie closest.
Trott rode the perfect ellimination with mixture of riding on the front and last second efforts.
Whitton had a shocker so looks out of it as she wont make up 7 places in the TT or pursuit, looks like its out of top three unless something different happens, but these three will probably watch the scratch and keep things tight and leave it to timed events so It could be close but I think it will be trott for gold, and a tie with ausie and hammer
Trott really only needs to watch and finish ahead of Hammer, Whitton, Edmonsaon the the belgian in the scratch and gold is hers unless she flass off in the TT and pursuit.

oldwelshman

Lichtblick wrote:

(back to track)

Banking. I have a question about velodrome banking.

Please be "nice". I've never even been to a velodrome and never watched it on TV until this year's Olympics.

ok. takes deep breath.

What's the banking "for", is it only for pinging on and off - like in team pursuit. If no, why do some individual sprint starts, have them going slowly up and down the banking?

When you're up there, unless you're going real fast, you're going to slide down?

No rolled-eyes PLEASE. Everyone has to learn things at some point.

Thanks.

Gi and have a go Itys not as bad as people make out as long as you don't look at the banking from the top before you try lol.
Some riders can go as low as 12mph but I never been less than 14mph. You dont know how slow you can go until you fall and in group sessions this is not a good idea
generally even total beginner who have never even ridden a bike are ok after a few laps practice getting use to a fixed wheel. As long as you dont try to stop pedalling ( which often happens with roadies lol) and pedal about 18mph (which is easy on a track) and steer straight you wont fall.
Most people fall when they forget to pedal, turn up or down track too fast when not used to it, or hit someone

Jez mon

oldwelshman wrote:

Chinny already tried and not as good as wiggo.
Not sure what you mean about largest engines being put on the track and not road, where do you think Cav, Wiggo,Thomas, Kennaugh, Rowe and a few others started? They started on the track and moved to road. Armistead did also.

Meh, that's pretty much the point, in this country as a developing road racer, you're likely to spend a heck of a lot of your formative years riding track at a high level. I can only think of Brad McGee as an example of a non-British cyclist who's been successful on track and road.

Did Cancellara really give track a proper go?

davidof

Lichtblick wrote:

they have to keep going until the bike loses momentum, (no brakes), and they just have to keep on pedalling too.

You can slow down very quickly on a track bike, probably to a stop in half a lap.

I used to race track and rode Calshot track in the evenings for training in the winter. It is an old 6 day track and I think it is a shade over 180 meters, the banking is a lot steeper than London, a wall of death affair. Also it used to shake, rattle and roll a lot.

I stopped at Calshot because they used to allow newbies on while we were training. One day a guy who had never done a lap on the track got on a bike and cycled straight into our lineout doing 55kp/h. I wrecked my track bike and still have the scars 30 years later!

Lichtblick

oldwelshman wrote:

Gi and have a go Itys not as bad as people make out as long as you don't look at the banking from the top before you try lol.
Some riders can go as low as 12mph but I never been less than 14mph. You dont know how slow you can go until you fall and in group sessions this is not a good idea
generally even total beginner who have never even ridden a bike are ok after a few laps practice getting use to a fixed wheel. As long as you dont try to stop pedalling ( which often happens with roadies lol) and pedal about 18mph (which is easy on a track) and steer straight you wont fall.
Most people fall when they forget to pedal, turn up or down track too fast when not used to it, or hit someone

Hey thanks oldwelshman.

Getting used to a fixed wheel, eh? So I couldn't take my bike/s then. They wouldn't be any use anyway - no cleats. :shock:

Talking of cleats, I noticed earlier on (I do that, noticing things, like Bauge being the only one to be held around the waist when readying for the off) that one of these superfit athletes had a toe cage, not cleat. Is that not "strange" at this level?

Jez mon

I don't think it's especially strange, IIRC most riders use clipless pedals plus additional straps.

I've ridden a bit of fixed wheel on the road it's not that hard once you are used to it, having said that, if I start sprinting out of the saddle, then I often try and free wheel upon sitting back down...

oldwelshman

ha ha. No they all use cleats and double toe straps due to the power they put out when they accelerate.
The favoured pedlas for sprinters used to be the old shimano dura ace spd pedals as they are very difficult to pull out of so these were reliable and even better with toe straps, but now with sponsors of kit they use team provided pedals.
One of the most dangerous things I have seen on the track is cyclists using the same shoes on their track bikes and they use on their road bikes and often the cleats are worn. I have seen several people snap their cleats on th etrack and they waddle round the track one legged.
I know one elite youngster who laughed at my old shimano cleats until he did a standing start and snapped his look keo cleat and went intot eh bars of his bike and broke his collarbone in three pieces!!! he now uses shimano lol

davidof

oldwelshman wrote:

ha ha. No they all use cleats and double toe straps due to the power they put out when they accelerate.

You often do the same on autumn hill climbs

Lichtblick

ok, I bow to your collective knowledge, just trying to learn more here.

Thanks

Daz555

Lichtblick wrote:

What's the banking "for", is it only for pinging on and off - like in team pursuit. If no, why do some individual sprint starts, have them going slowly up and down the banking.

Have a go at riding round a flat bend of the same diameter at over 70km/hr.

Report back your findings. Hopefully you can find a wifi hotspot in whichever hospital you end up in!

ddraver

Thanks for that Daz, most helpful :roll:

greasedscotsman

Lichtblick wrote:

Your last chance to watch Bauge being cuddled by his trainer (whoever it is) coming up soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Rousseau

Daz555

Was great to see Kenny dominate Bauge tonight. He really put the "best" sprinter on the planet firmly in his place.

Show how competion for places is so important within a team - how hard has Kenny had to work to keep Sir Chris out?

knedlicky

Graeme_S wrote:

When you stand at the top of the banking and look down it, it's like looking out of a window on the 1st storey of a house looking straight down a wooden wall, it's unbelievably steep. The TV completely robs it of the sense of steepness.
I've only done a taster session at Manchester velodrome ...

It might have looked like the vertical drop slide at Alton Towers, but the banking at Manchester is ‘only’ 42 degrees max. The Olympic velodrome in London has 43 degrees, the Beijing Olympic velodrome has 47 degrees.

Although many velodromes nowadays are 250 m long, there are no international standards, lengths vary from about 150 m to 350 m. The UCI’s own velodrome at Aigle in Switzerland, built 2002, is just 200 m long. Width vary too, the Aigle one is 6.65 m wide, the Beijing velodrome 7.5 m wide, and the new velodrome in Hong Kong only 4 m wide along the straights. I think London might be 7 m wide.

Similarly there aren't standards about the length of the straights or their banking, or the radius of the curves, which influences their banking angle - some of the larger velodromes have max banking of only 35 degrees because their curves have larger radii than smaller velodromes.
And that's not to mention different surface materials (and in the case of London, its controlled atmosphere – down on the track is kept fairly warm to help the wood stay dry, but the warmer air also reduces air resistance).

So how you can have records if every velodrome is different?

oldwelshman

knedlicky wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

When you stand at the top of the banking and look down it, it's like looking out of a window on the 1st storey of a house looking straight down a wooden wall, it's unbelievably steep. The TV completely robs it of the sense of steepness.
I've only done a taster session at Manchester velodrome ...

It might have looked like the vertical drop slide at Alton Towers, but the banking at Manchester is ‘only’ 42 degrees max. The Olympic velodrome in London has 43 degrees, the Beijing Olympic velodrome has 47 degrees.

Although many velodromes nowadays are 250 m long, there are no international standards, lengths vary from about 150 m to 350 m. The UCI’s own velodrome at Aigle in Switzerland, built 2002, is just 200 m long. Width vary too, the Aigle one is 6.65 m wide, the Beijing velodrome 7.5 m wide, and the new velodrome in Hong Kong only 4 m wide along the straights. I think London might be 7 m wide.

Similarly there aren't standards about the length of the straights or their banking, or the radius of the curves, which influences their banking angle - some of the larger velodromes have max banking of only 35 degrees because their curves have larger radii than smaller velodromes.
And that's not to mention different surface materials (and in the case of London, its controlled atmosphere – down on the track is kept fairly warm to help the wood stay dry, but the warmer air also reduces air resistance).

So how you can have records if every velodrome is different?

Is the last question serious?
If it is how the hell would you be able to have any records in any sport outside due to different conditions?
It makes a small difference but not that much.
The only limitiation as far as I know for track are altitide rides.
Same for athletics, also wondspeed for some events.
On the track the records are for timed events which are ridden round the bottom of the track so a slight difference in banking height, angle etc makes no difference.